New trains for East Midlands Franchise

ashkeba · 22 Aug 2019

whhistle said:
[*]Bearing in mind the 170 units can't run to Stansted and interchange with the Nottingham - Cardiff service, it's fairly difficult to sort out.

170s currently run to Standsted and are wholly inadequate. They need to be replaced by longer intercity-class units with enough luggage space for an airport service but it won't be 222s because of their lower seating capacity and non-Sprinter speeds. No-one seems to have an answer or interest in this, so I expect XC will struggle on with their beat-up 170s for now, insulting every visitor arriving at that airport to visit the Midlands, and they will not go to EMR.

RailUK Forums

RealTrains07 · 22 Aug 2019

ashkeba said:
170s currently run to Standsted and are wholly inadequate. They need to be replaced by longer intercity-class units with enough luggage space for an airport service but it won't be 222s because of their lower seating capacity and non-Sprinter speeds. No-one seems to have an answer or interest in this, so I expect XC will struggle on with their beat-up 170s for now and they will not go to EMR.

Untill DfT begins tendering for the next XC franchise which wont be for a while then their is no point in predicting where the 170s will go as they will definitely not move until then

The Ham · 22 Aug 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Untill DfT begins tendering for the next XC franchise which wont be for a while then their is no point in predicting where the 170s will go as they will definitely not move until then

What like the way the Trans Pennines definitely didn't lose units to Chiltern back in 2014:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/campaigners-fury-nine-transpennine-express-6768197

Rail campaigners have reacted with anger to plans to move nine northern trains down south - depriving the most over-crowded fleet in the country.

The scheme to send 13 per cent of the 70-strong TransPennine Express fleet to the south of England for Chiltern Rail in the London and Home Counties Region is to make up for a shortage down there.

krus_aragon · 22 Aug 2019

222001 said:
That's December 2021. It's mentioned at the bottom of here - https://modern-railways.keypublishing.com/2019/08/01/hitachi-trains-for-east-midlands-railway/

Thanks. I guess I read that bit in an ambiguous way at first.(i.e. that the displacement would have started by then, not finished. Obviously, with the announcement that 170s are coming from mid-2020, that interpretation doesn't make sense any more.)

Class 466 · 22 Aug 2019

TPE are already keeping an additional 7/8 185s and it's widely expected the NOT-LIV section will transfer to them, thus giving them cause to keep the rest of the 185s.

Speedbird96 · 22 Aug 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Wrong. Their are hydrogen trains coming too as specified in the franchise agreement so thats 4 types of stock

Only mentions the trialling of hydrogen fuel cell trains in the DFT documents, it isn't entirely guaranteed they will actually join the EMR fleet.

RealTrains07 said:
Their is no official confirmation that the WMR 170s are going to EMR thats just speculation for the most part

The Scotrail 170s are going to EMR next year

And there is no official confirmation that Chiltern Railways will receive Class 170s in exchange for Class 172s either. It is pretty safe to assume that WMR Class 170s could make their way over to EMR.

Only 5 Class 170s from ScotRail through their lease from Eversholt have been confirmed for transfer.

RealTrains07 · 22 Aug 2019

Speedbird96 said:
And there is no official confirmation that Chiltern Railways will receive Class 170s in exchange for Class 172s either. It is pretty safe to assume that WMR Class 170s could make their way over to EMR.

Only 5 Class 170s from ScotRail through their lease from Eversholt have been confirmed for transfer.

True but when has a transfer like this ever been officially announced. It hasn’t

It may only be 5 but at least its been confirmed also announced in multiple magazines as well

Lets just wait until word is officially made/ confirmed about the WMR 170s future

Might I add It has been mentioned before on other threads about CV not wanting the 172s and preferring units 170 that match the technical specification of the ones they already have.

krus_aragon · 22 Aug 2019

Looking at this new franchise (and the West Coast one) I'm realising how spoilt we were with the detailed announcements at the award of the TfW franchise...

Speedbird96 · 22 Aug 2019

RealTrains07 said:
True but when has a transfer like this ever been officially announced. It hasn’t

It may only be 5 but at least its been confirmed also announced in multiple magazines as well

Lets just wait until word is officially made/ confirmed about the WMR 170s future

Might I add It has been mentioned before on other threads about CV not wanting the 172s and preferring units 170 that match the technical specification of the ones they already have.

Err... Yes they are normally confirmed! Whenever there have been fleet transfers, this has often been followed by official confirmation e.g. the 9 Class 170/3s transferring from TPE to Chiltern were announced by the DFT, the Class 172/0s from London Overground to WMR etc.

And whilst I am aware of Chiltern's desire for a more uniform fleet of Class 168s, the transfer of WMR Class 170s is purely speculative at this point. At the moment, EMR is in greater need of fleet replacement compared to Chiltern.

Jozhua · 22 Aug 2019

Found it interesting that in the EMR video posted earlier in the thread with the manager of the franchise he mentioned 153's would be attached to PRM compliant units!

He also promised no single carriage running by the end of the year which is a massive step forward in ensuring consistency of the service. The fact they're planning on hooking prm compliant to non prm compliant units is sensible for increasing capacity in the short term and making sure we can all have an improved experience!

Seems like other franchises such as Northern will do this post 2020, would make sense for Pacers/153's to be kept running with a compliment 150/6 because I can't imagine overcrowded short forms being good for persons of reduced mobility either!

RealTrains07 · 22 Aug 2019

Speedbird96 said:
Err... Yes they are normally confirmed! Whenever there have been fleet transfers, this has often been followed by official confirmation e.g. the 9 Class 170/3s transferring from TPE to Chiltern were announced by the DFT, the Class 172/0s from London Overground to WMR etc.

And whilst I am aware of Chiltern's desire for a more uniform fleet of Class 168s, the transfer of WMR Class 170s is purely speculative at this point. At the moment, EMR is in greater need of fleet replacement compared to Chiltern.

Did the DfT confirm the 170s from LO to WMR?

This isn’t a one way transfer like the 5 170s going from SR to EMR

This is a swap! What you said about transfer being confirmed isn’t relevant cause it isn’t the same as a swap in units? Has their ever been a direct swap of units between operators before? Let alone confirmed in any way

We should wait until more is actually confirmed from EMR.

Most talk about the XC and WMR 170 units going to EMR in this thread is still all speculation technically cause nothing is confirmed by EMR yet

edwin_m · 22 Aug 2019

The Ham said:
What like the way the Trans Pennines definitely didn't lose units to Chiltern back in 2014:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/campaigners-fury-nine-transpennine-express-6768197

I guess the clauses quoted above were inserted into later franchise invitations as an attempt by DfT to avoid that sort of poaching.

swt_passenger · 22 Aug 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Has their ever been a direct swap of units between operators before? Let alone confirmed in any way

Does the 2006 (approx) SWT/TPE exchange of 170s and 158s meet the requirement for a swap? Can’t recall if it was announced in advance...

Speedbird96 · 22 Aug 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Did the DfT confirm the 170s from LO to WMR?

This isn’t a one way transfer like the 5 170s going from SR to EMR

This is a swap! What you said about transfer being confirmed isn’t relevant cause it isn’t the same as a swap in units? Has their ever been a direct swap of units between operators before? Let alone confirmed in any way

We should wait until more is actually confirmed from EMR.

Most talk about the XC and WMR 170 units going to EMR in this thread is still all speculation technically cause nothing is confirmed by EMR yet

Didn’t specifically say the DFT confirm the transfer of Class 172/0s to WMR but was widely reported and confirmed as part of the WMR franchise agreement. Was referring to the Class 170/3s which was confirmed by the DFT.

The majority of EMR’s rail fleet are going to be transfers which need to be sourced from somewhere; ScotRail as far as I’m are aware don’t have any more plans to withdraw more Class 170/4s other than 170416-170420 which are leased from Eversholt instead of Porterbrook.

Yes, there have been swaps in units before between operators... You only have to look at Central Trains and the entire National Express rail portfolio during the 2000s to know swaps were part and parcel, which had to be confirmed by the Strategic Rail Authority.

EMR have already confirmed that they are standardising their regional fleet around “modern, air conditioned units” which rules out the long-term viability of Class 153s and Class 156s within the franchise, and the Class 158s are not getting any younger and their air-conditioning is not the most reliable either. It is safe to assume Class 170s will make the bulk of the regional fleet considering the MD made specific mention to them, where the majority are coming from is anyone’s guess at this point!

I don’t see it likely XC will let go of their Class 170s just yet, WMR are most likely considering they have no confirmed homes once they are withdrawn in favour of Class 196s.

MatthewRead · 22 Aug 2019

Mikey C said:
Any replacement for the Southern 171s will be years away

Their lease is meant to expire at the end of the Southern franchise in September 2021.

MarkWiles · 22 Aug 2019

Central Trains swapped an equal number of their Class 156 units for Class 150/2 units from Oneglia. The deal was funded by Centro who wanted the additional capacity as I understand it and I seem to recall the SRA got involved as well. Some 156 and 158 units had been turning up on West Midlands locals (before the 156 fleet moved to the East Midlands) which with their end doors was seen as a problem for the intensive urban network around Birmingham, whereas the end doors would be less of a problem on the Oneglia network. That was the theory explained to me at the time as ironically I had just left Centro as was working at Norfolk County Council when the swap happened and was involved with the community rail partnerships in the county.

Mitchell Hurd · 22 Aug 2019

I typed in the google search box something like 'emr Class 360' to see what comments are said and there's already concern at these replacing the Class 222 Meridians. Having been in a 3+2 section of a LNWR Class 350 and a SWR Class 450 (which are still comfortable trains in my eyes), I can understand.

Gone will be buffet services and seat reservations on the 360's.

RealTrains07 · 22 Aug 2019

Mitchell Hurd said:
I typed in the google search box something like 'emr Class 360' to see what comments are said and there's already concern at these replacing the Class 222 Meridians. Having been in a 3+2 section of a LNWR Class 350 and a SWR Class 450 (which are still comfortable trains in my eyes), I can understand.

Gone will be buffet services and seat reservations on the 360's.

360s are replacing the 222s. On the Corby route anyway

Definitely wont be a shop/buffet on the 360s however they might have a trolley based service as i think 450 units might have done that in the past

Sprinter150 · 22 Aug 2019

Mitchell Hurd said:
I typed in the google search box something like 'emr Class 360' to see what comments are said and there's already concern at these replacing the Class 222 Meridians. Having been in a 3+2 section of a LNWR Class 350 and a SWR Class 450 (which are still comfortable trains in my eyes), I can understand.

Gone will be buffet services and seat reservations on the 360's.

As the new franchise has promised extensive refurbishment, will they receive 2+2 seating with tables? Or will it be another botched "refurbishment", where all that happens is the seat covers are replaced, even when most people are travelling for a good hour?

TheBigD · 22 Aug 2019

Looking post Liverpoop-Norwich route being split and Liverpool-Nottingham section going to another operator, EMR will need a minimum of 40 x 170 units...

Crewe-Derby-Nottingham-Newark = 5 units
Matlock-Nottingham-Norwich = 8 units
Nottingham- Worksop = 4 units
Nottingham-Skegness = 5 units
Leicester-Nottingham-Lincoln-Grimsby = 6 units
Barton on Humber = 1 unit
Newark-Lincoln = 1 unit
Lincoln-Doncaster = 2 units
Lincoln-Peterborouh = 3 units.

Minimum of 35 units in service Mondays to Saturdays and doesn't take into account Skegness*/Park hours strengthening etc etc.

So after the 5 x170 from Scotrail and 23 x 170 from West Midlands that leaves a bare minimum of around 12 x 170 units to be sourced, more if summer Skegness services etc are to be strengthened.

* whilst I expect most summer Skeggy services to be 3 car 170s some current summer services are currently 4 cars due to the high loadings.

RealTrains07 · 22 Aug 2019

Sprinter150 said:
As the new franchise has promised extensive refurbishment, will they receive 2+2 seating with tables? Or will it be another botched "refurbishment", where all that happens is the seat covers are replaced, even when most people are travelling for a good hour?

If the LNR 350 interior refurbishment is anything to go by then yes, most likely will be botched

Jorge Da Silva · 22 Aug 2019

TheBigD said:
Looking post Liverpoop-Norwich route being split and Liverpool-Nottingham section going to another operator, EMR will need a minimum of 40 x 170 units...

Crewe-Derby-Nottingham-Newark = 5 units
Matlock-Nottingham-Norwich = 8 units
Nottingham- Worksop = 4 units
Nottingham-Skegness = 5 units
Leicester-Nottingham-Lincoln-Grimsby = 6 units
Barton on Humber = 1 unit
Newark-Lincoln = 1 unit
Lincoln-Doncaster = 2 units
Lincoln-Peterborouh = 3 units.

Minimum of 35 units in service Mondays to Saturdays and doesn't take into account Skegness*/Park hours strengthening etc etc.

So after the 5 x170 from Scotrail and 23 x 170 from West Midlands that leaves a bare minimum of around 12 x 170 units to be sourced, more if summer Skegness services etc are to be strengthened.

* whilst I expect most summer Skeggy services to be 3 car 170s some current summer services are currently 4 cars due to the high loadings.

Thanks for that summary. So probably around 12-14 units (including extra for summer Skegness services) to be found from somewhere. Anyone guess who has around that number? Sending them from ScotRail seems like the only option now.

cnjb8 · 22 Aug 2019

whhistle said:
I do wish people would cite sources...

I would like to know:

1) Where have Southern said they're looking to replace their 171s?
Reasons not to talk about this:

I haven't seen anything, anywhere, apart form an odd post here suggesting Southern are looking to get rid of their 171s.

At this late stage in their franchise, why would they spend money on replacing (training, logistics of swapping units) stock?

I only mentioned this in my earlier post because the Southern franchise will come to an end within our franchise and bi modes COULD be ordered for the next.. No documents but it will fill the gap mentioned earlier too

RealTrains07 · 22 Aug 2019

cnjb8 said:
I only mentioned this in my earlier post because the Southern franchise will come to an end within our franchise and bi modes COULD be ordered for the next.. No documents but it will fill the gap mentioned earlier too

2/3 car bi modes? Like thats gonna happen :lol:

Best bet in waiting to see what happens with the WMR 170s first

Kettledrum · 22 Aug 2019

Jozhua said:
Found it interesting that in the EMR video posted earlier in the thread with the manager of the franchise he mentioned 153's would be attached to PRM compliant units!

He also promised no single carriage running by the end of the year which is a massive step forward in ensuring consistency of the service. The fact they're planning on hooking prm compliant to non prm compliant units is sensible for increasing capacity in the short term and making sure we can all have an improved experience!

I'm really pleased about this - particularly if it means the Derby to Crewe services stop running as one coach trains.

RealTrains07 · 22 Aug 2019

Kettledrum said:
I'm really pleased about this - particularly if it means the Derby to Crewe services stop running as one coach trains.

Just gotta hope enough 755s are in service for GA to release all their 156s by december

cnjb8 · 22 Aug 2019

RealTrains07 said:
2/3 car bi modes? Like thats gonna happen Best bet in waiting to see what happens with the WMR 170s first

I agree but there aren't enough WMR 170s.

RealTrains07 · 23 Aug 2019

cnjb8 said:
I agree but there aren't enough WMR 170s.

I think EMR was a bit quick to say just 170s would work its regional routes. So unrealistic

Jozhua · 23 Aug 2019

RealTrains07 said:
I think EMR was a bit quick to say just 170s would work its regional routes. So unrealistic

Yeah, I'd argue 158's are nicer than 170s anyway so I'd have no quarms about those staying!

To be fair stopping single carriage 153 running is almost certainly going to make a big difference. 3 carriage trains should help relieve some overcrowding at rush hours.

Class 466 · 23 Aug 2019

RealTrains07 said:
I think EMR was a bit quick to say just 170s would work its regional routes. So unrealistic

Not too quick if that’s what they plan on happening? Three fleets for three sub-brands. I don’t think they could’ve been much clearer!

New trains for East Midlands Franchise

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

On Moderation

Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member