Manchester to St Pancras in 1972?

Mark62 · 22 Aug 2019

70014IronDuke said:
In 2004? "Very fast" ? They may have removed many of the PSRs caused by subsidence that once plagued the line, but I'd be surprised if the line speed was above 80 mph. There was little need. Aside from the period of Operation Rio, as I remember, all trains stopped at either Derby or (a few) at Nottingham.
I think there was one odd Sunday working which went straight up the Erewash for a period.

I'm talking about the 70s
And the fastest Sheffield to London run is 119 minutes via the slow erewash. Faster than the present journeys from Sheffield to London by quite a long way. I did the cutler quite a few times before it got slowed.
In the 70s quite a few went down the erewash

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Ash Bridge · 22 Aug 2019

70014IronDuke said:
In 2004? "Very fast" ? They may have removed many of the PSRs caused by subsidence that once plagued the line, but I'd be surprised if the line speed was above 80 mph. There was little need. Aside from the period of Operation Rio, as I remember, all trains stopped at either Derby or (a few) at Nottingham.
I think there was one odd Sunday working which went straight up the Erewash for a period.

Yes, my recollection of the 'Rio' HST journey 15 years ago passing along the Erewash was that it wasn't much more than a trundle especially passing by Toton depot. A quick update on the Manchester Picc-St Pancras service, I've just located a copy of the 5th May 1975-2nd May 1976 Working Timetable for services between Piccadilly and Dore and the 08:01 (1M51) off Piccadilly & 18:25 (1M49) off St Pancras were still running during that period, so when did they finally cease?

70014IronDuke · 22 Aug 2019

Mark62 said:
I'm talking about the 70s
And the fastest Sheffield to London run is 119 minutes via the slow erewash. Faster than the present journeys from Sheffield to London by quite a long way. I did the cutler quite a few times before it got slowed.
In the 70s quite a few went down the erewash

I'm afraid your memory/arithmetic is out here. There is no way a Cl 45 +8 could do Sheffield to London in 119 minutes, not via Derby, not via the Erewash + Nottingham nor the full Erewash via Toton. I don't think it could be done via Retford and non-stop to Kings Cross.

In the 1970s it is true that more trains went via the Erewash and then into Nottingham - reverse - and onto St Pancras. But they were about 12-15 minutes slower than trains via Derby.

Starting in about 1970-71, the Master Cutler was diverted via the full Erewash (ie via Toton). Previously it was routed via Derby, but didn't stop. I think that at the time routing via the Erewash saved about 12-13 minutes - some PSRs had been lifted to enable this. But 119 minutes - sorry, not possible.

alistairlees · 22 Aug 2019

70014IronDuke said:
I'm afraid your memory/arithmetic is out here. There is no way a Cl 45 +8 could do Sheffield to London in 119 minutes, not via Derby, not via the Erewash + Nottingham nor the full Erewash via Toton. I don't think it could be done via Retford and non-stop to Kings Cross.

In the 1970s it is true that more trains went via the Erewash and then into Nottingham - reverse - and onto St Pancras. But they were about 12-15 minutes slower than trains via Derby.

Starting in about 1970-71, the Master Cutler was diverted via the full Erewash (ie via Toton). Previously it was routed via Derby, but didn't stop. I think that at the time routing via the Erewash saved about 12-13 minutes - some PSRs had been lifted to enable this. But 119 minutes - sorry, not possible.

In the May 1975 timetable the fastest down train was the Master Cutler:
St Pancras d. 17.22
Leicester a. 18.46
Leicester d. 18.47
Chesterfield a. 19.33
Sheffield a. 19.52

2h 30m in total.

jfollows · 22 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
A quick update on the Manchester Picc-St Pancras service, I've just located a copy of the 5th May 1975-2nd May 1976 Working Timetable for services between Piccadilly and Dore and the 08:01 (1M51) off Piccadilly & 18:25 (1M49) off St Pancras were still running during that period, so when did they finally cease?

Thank you, that's really interesting. I can't find my Manchester area 1977 WTT but if I do I'll report back. My memory clearly can't be trusted but I think that the weekday passenger services had ceased by then.

Busaholic · 22 Aug 2019

My wife and I used that St Pancras 18.35 service to Man Picc once in the 1970s, when Euston was disrupted for some reason. We were actually bound for Preston.and did make it through that evening. I do remember it was remarkably unbusy, in contrast to our usual Euston departures at the end of the p.m.peak.

jfollows · 22 Aug 2019

Tangentially, but related under the heading of "nostalgia", I also remember a journey from Saint Pancras to Manchester in 1983.

At the time I lived in Earlsfield (London) and shared a house with a friend who was a Manchester City supporter. I would sometimes travel with him to games, but I can't abide football, so I would then find something else to do and meet him for a curry after the game.

On this occasion we were going to some vital home game, but on the Northern Line from Tooting Broadway we were advised not to go to Euston, but to go to Saint Pancras instead. Where we found a train to Manchester, which went via Castle Donington and Stoke.

It all worked, and he made it in time for kickoff.

This is just an example of what British Railways could do with lots of rolling stock and spare locomotives. And did so, quickly, when it needed to. The idea that we would be "advised not to travel" didn't occur. Many things since then have changed for the better, but not everything.

Ash Bridge · 23 Aug 2019

jfollows said:
Thank you, that's really interesting. I can't find my Manchester area 1977 WTT but if I do I'll report back. My memory clearly can't be trusted but I think that the weekday passenger services had ceased by then.

Your most welcome, surely if it hadn't ceased by that time it must have been very close to doing so. Would be interesting to find out exactly when though.

Busaholic said:
My wife and I used that St Pancras 18.35 service to Man Picc once in the 1970s, when Euston was disrupted for some reason. We were actually bound for Preston.and did make it through that evening. I do remember it was remarkably unbusy, in contrast to our usual Euston departures at the end of the p.m.peak.

That's quite amazing really, disruption on the west coast and still no increase in patronage, I wonder if people were simply unaware that a service still existed from St Pancras to Manchester by that time?

70014IronDuke · 23 Aug 2019

Busaholic said:
My wife and I used that St Pancras 18.35 service to Man Picc once in the 1970s, when Euston was disrupted for some reason. We were actually bound for Preston.and did make it through that evening. I do remember it was remarkably unbusy, in contrast to our usual Euston departures at the end of the p.m.peak.

You made it to Preston?!! The 18.35 would have only got into Piccadilly at around 23.00 - unless they did some skip stopping because of the Euston disruption. But BR didn't normally do that IMX.

70014IronDuke · 23 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
...
That's quite amazing really, disruption on the west coast and still no increase in patronage, I wonder if people were simply unaware that a service still existed from St Pancras to Manchester by that time?

I'd bet not only were most passengers unaware of the St Pancras trains by the mid-70s, but so would most staff on the WCML. Especially as it seems there were only two trains a day from about 72 or 73. BR did not go out of its way to market these trains - it was all about the nice shiny fast electrics to Euston - understandably so.

70014IronDuke · 23 Aug 2019

jfollows said:
Thank you, that's really interesting. I can't find my Manchester area 1977 WTT but if I do I'll report back. My memory clearly can't be trusted but I think that the weekday passenger services had ceased by then.

I would wager a pint that this was the last period of these trains. It's quite possible that they were cut in changes made in October 1975. The country had serious economic problems, inflation was rising, and BR was under a lot of pressure to make savings. IIRC, cuts were made to the MML services that month. The Manchesters would have been 'easy' savings to make.

Ash Bridge · 23 Aug 2019

70014IronDuke said:
You made it to Preston?!! The 18.35 would have only got into Piccadilly at around 23.00 - unless they did some skip stopping because of the Euston disruption. But BR didn't normally do that IMX.

22:32 into Piccadilly according to that WTT.

70014IronDuke said:
I'd bet not only were most passengers unaware of the St Pancras trains by the mid-70s, but so would most staff on the WCML. Especially as it seems there were only two trains a day from about 72 or 73. BR did not go out of its way to market these trains - it was all about the nice shiny fast electrics to Euston - understandably so.

Indeed, Intercity publicity literature never seemed to feature Monica (or was it Monika?) in her then trendy fur coat and boots beside a work stained class 45, or stood in the doorway of a grimy unrebuilt mk1 :lol:

70014IronDuke · 23 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
22:32 into Piccadilly according to that WTT.

4 hrs only? Hmmm. That is fast (relatively, for that service). In fact, it's faster than 'express' steam timings via Matlock, I think. They used to take about 4 hr 20 or so IIRC.
Perhaps this train did not wait the usual 18 minutes at Leicester to be overtaken by the following Sheffiled express?

Ash Bridge said:
Indeed, Intercity publicity literature never seemed to feature Monica (or was it Monika?) in her then trendy fur coat and boots beside a work stained class 45, or stood in the doorway of a grimy unrebuilt mk1

To be fair to Cricklewood carriage sidings (and whoever did the work at the Piccadily end), the Mk1s were always reasonably turned out when I used those trains - at least from memory.

70014IronDuke · 23 Aug 2019

alistairlees said:
In the May 1975 timetable the fastest down train was the Master Cutler:
St Pancras d. 17.22
Leicester a. 18.46
Leicester d. 18.47
Chesterfield a. 19.33
Sheffield a. 19.52

2h 30m in total.

Thank you. That fitted exactly with my memory - that is to say, ISTR they were trying for 2 hr 30, but it was touch and go whether they could make it on a day-to-day basis, especially when they went to air-con stock - and therefore less power to the traction motors - in 1973.

alistairlees · 23 Aug 2019

70014IronDuke said:
Thank you. That fitted exactly with my memory - that is to say, ISTR they were trying for 2 hr 30, but it was touch and go whether they could make it on a day-to-day basis, especially when they went to air-con stock - and therefore less power to the traction motors - in 1973.

No problem. I think the up Master Cutler also had exactly 2h 30m headline timing. It was clearly a marketing ploy. Out of interest, the fastest (down) timings to Doncaster from Kings Cross were something like 2h 4m (maybe 2h dead) for a non-stop schedule on a much straighter piece of railway, and for a similar distance (compared to via the Erewash valley). So actually pretty good from St Pancras to Sheffield considering the lower top speeds on the MML. It is easy to be critical with today's perspective and to forget how different it was then.

Ash Bridge · 29 Aug 2019

70014IronDuke said:
4 hrs only? Hmmm. That is fast (relatively, for that service). In fact, it's faster than 'express' steam timings via Matlock, I think. They used to take about 4 hr 20 or so IIRC.
Perhaps this train did not wait the usual 18 minutes at Leicester to be overtaken by the following Sheffiled express.

Sorry for the delayed reply, unfortunately I don't have a copy of the WTT for this part of the route but according to the LM Passenger Timetable for May 1973 - May 74 that does appear to be the case, as it was booked to arr. Leicester at 20:11 and depart at 20:17, arriving into Manchester Picc at 22:31.

Andy R. A. · 30 Aug 2019

Sunday 15.07.73 Cambridge Street Depot. Un-renumbered 45 '132' ready to come off Depot to coincidently work 1M32 0815 St. Pancras to Manchester Piccadilly. Engineering works that day saw the train diverted via Melton Mowbray to Leicester (reverse), and retimed into Manchester Piccadilly at 1410. Load was just 7 Mark 1s.

LMR002 Cambridge Street 15.07.73 D132 before working 1M32.jpg

Ash Bridge · 30 Aug 2019

Andy R. A. said:
Sunday 15.07.73 Cambridge Street Depot. Un-renumbered 45 '132' ready to come off Depot to coincidently work 1M32 0815 St. Pancras to Manchester Piccadilly. Engineering works that day saw the train diverted via Melton Mowbray to Leicester (reverse), and retimed into Manchester Piccadilly at 1410. Load was just 7 Mark 1s.

View attachment 67974

Many thanks for posting this, and welcome to the forum Andy

70014IronDuke · 31 Aug 2019

Andy R. A. said:
Sunday 15.07.73 Cambridge Street Depot. Un-renumbered 45 '132' ready to come off Depot to coincidently work 1M32 0815 St. Pancras to Manchester Piccadilly. Engineering works that day saw the train diverted via Melton Mowbray to Leicester (reverse), and retimed into Manchester Piccadilly at 1410. Load was just 7 Mark 1s.

View attachment 67974

Interesting. This train had departed at 08.00 in the mid-1960s. Wonder why they put it back to 08.15? It was already a late arrival into Leicester and Derby even at 08.00. But I suppose Sunday mornings were far sleepier affairs for most in those days.

Incidentally, IKWYM but it's a bit strange to say 132 is 'un-renumbered' - apart from the ETH conversions (which were renumbered 45 1xx before leaving works) - I don't think any 45s were renumbered until later that year, when the programme began to renumber on depots.

But as Ash Bridge says - Welcome to the forum (or fora?)

Andy R. A. · 31 Aug 2019

70014IronDuke said:
Incidentally, IKWYM but it's a bit strange to say 132 is 'un-renumbered' - apart from the ETH conversions (which were renumbered 45 1xx before leaving works) - I don't think any 45s were renumbered until later that year, when the programme began to renumber on depots.

Quite so, force of habit after someone had asked whether it was before or after the Tops numbering was carried out.

Flying Snail · 31 Aug 2019

70014IronDuke said:
I'm afraid your memory/arithmetic is out here. There is no way a Cl 45 +8 could do Sheffield to London in 119 minutes, not via Derby, not via the Erewash + Nottingham nor the full Erewash via Toton. I don't think it could be done via Retford and non-stop to Kings Cross.

In the 1970s it is true that more trains went via the Erewash and then into Nottingham - reverse - and onto St Pancras. But they were about 12-15 minutes slower than trains via Derby.

Starting in about 1970-71, the Master Cutler was diverted via the full Erewash (ie via Toton). Previously it was routed via Derby, but didn't stop. I think that at the time routing via the Erewash saved about 12-13 minutes - some PSRs had been lifted to enable this. But 119 minutes - sorry, not possible.

I think he was referencing both 70's and later HST services, certainly during the MML franchise the Up Master Cutler ran non-stop from Chesterfield via Erewash. In 2003 it was Leeds 06.14, Sheffield 07.27, Chesterfield 07.40, St Pancras 09.26. 119 mns Sheffield - St Pancras. The Down Cutler was slower, via Derby.

Also from the summer 2003 table the Rio services called at Luton, Wellingborough, Kettering, Mkt Harborough, Leicester, Stockport and Piccadilly had a journey time of around 3h15-20, except the 06.47 from Piccadilly which did it in 2h59 suggesting the others had a lot of slack at some point.

70014IronDuke · 31 Aug 2019

Flying Snail said:
I think he was referencing both 70's and later HST services, certainly during the MML franchise the Up Master Cutler ran non-stop from Chesterfield via Erewash. In 2003 it was Leeds 06.14, Sheffield 07.27, Chesterfield 07.40, St Pancras 09.26. 119 mns Sheffield - St Pancras. The Down Cutler was slower, via Derby.

Also from the summer 2003 table the Rio services called at Luton, Wellingborough, Kettering, Mkt Harborough, Leicester, Stockport and Piccadilly had a journey time of around 3h15-20, except the 06.47 from Piccadilly which did it in 2h59 suggesting the others had a lot of slack at some point.

Well, he should have referenced better then, shouldn't he?

If you read his post #32 - EDIT: sorry, #31 - he starts off with "I'm talking about the 70s", and he ends with the 70s.

Whatever, he's implying the Erewash was, or is, a 'fast' route. I accept that today it could perhaps be MADE into a reasonably fast route (90 mph? 100 mph? not sure. What is it today?) but historically (at least since I've known it, ie from c 1960) it has not been so. Faster, marginally, than via Derby from about 1970, yes - but then you lose the Derby traffic.

Note that personally I would love to see it used as a fast main line for one of the 2TPH to Sheffield. But I suspect that the TOCs involved over the years know full well that running via Derby makes far better economic sense. So that's what they do.

EDIT - Thinking about development of the Erewash, I created a new thread on the possibility of (re)-opening station(S) at Codnor Park and/or Pye Bridge. It's in speculative ideas forum.

jfollows · 3 Sep 2019

jfollows said:
I can't find my Manchester area 1977 WTT but if I do I'll report back.

Found it: Section CM 2 May 1977 to 7 May 1978

Up weekday services:
1M25 18:08 Parcels Piccadilly to Saint Pancras D315 "Must not convey four or six-wheeled vehicles", calls at New Mills Central and Chinley, then used Dore curve, but I'm fairly sure no passenger accommodation. This sat in platform 11 most of the afternoon from my earlier recollection. However 3M12 21:24 Parcels Mayfield to Nottingham, 4E02 23:00 Parcels Mayfield to Doncaster, 4M16 23:15 Parcels Mayfield to Luton or Cricklewood, so it was interesting that 1M25 still used Piccadilly for a parcels service, maybe Mayfield was full and certainly Piccadilly at the time wasn't.

No weekday down service Saint Pancras to Manchester. I think the balancing working to 1M25 was the "Nunnery Vans", 5M54 13:27 Nunnery CS to Longsight CS, on which I once travelled in the back cab of a Class 25 .... happy days!

Sundays: I recollect both of these were passenger services. All called at Sheffield (Midland) so didn't use the Dore curve (WTT shows passing times for Dore station when using the Hope Valley route).
1M51 09:45 Piccadilly to Saint Pancras, via Dore until 2 October, Woodhead from 9 October.
1M84 18:55 Piccadilly to Saint Pancras via Dore

Down Sundays: also passenger services
1M32 07:50 Saint Pancras to Piccadilly (via Woodhead from 9 October as above)
1M49 18:22 Saint Pancras to Piccadilly

jfollows · 3 Sep 2019

Ash Bridge said:
A quick update on the Manchester Picc-St Pancras service, I've just located a copy of the 5th May 1975-2nd May 1976 Working Timetable for services between Piccadilly and Dore and the 08:01 (1M51) off Piccadilly & 18:25 (1M49) off St Pancras were still running during that period, so when did they finally cease?

From my 2 May 1977 to 7 May 1978 CM working timetable, 1M51 and 1M49 were no more except on Sundays. In the up direction on weekdays through the Hope Valley, there was 1E08 D2 07:20 Piccadilly to Sheffield, followed from New Mills Central by 2E15 07:46 D1 stopper to Sheffield and Rotherham (back working from 2M85 06:43 Sheffield to New Mills Central), the next up passenger train of any sort through the Hope Valley being 1E71 08:45 D2 Piccadilly to Cleethorpes, so a huge gap where 1M51 used to be.

It's just fascinating and telling how much things have changed to see a huge gap (by today's standards) between 07:20 and 08:45 between consecutive trains from Manchester to Sheffield on a weekday morning. After then, services were roughly hourly at 09:45, 10:45, 11:45 and so on.

Ash Bridge · 3 Sep 2019

jfollows said:
From my 2 May 1977 to 7 May 1978 CM working timetable, 1M51 and 1M49 were no more except on Sundays. In the up direction on weekdays through the Hope Valley, there was 1E08 D2 07:20 Piccadilly to Sheffield, followed from New Mills Central by 2E15 07:46 D1 stopper to Sheffield and Rotherham (back working from 2M85 06:43 Sheffield to New Mills Central), the next up passenger train of any sort through the Hope Valley being 1E71 08:45 D2 Piccadilly to Cleethorpes, so a huge gap where 1M51 used to be.

It's just fascinating and telling how much things have changed to see a huge gap (by today's standards) between 07:20 and 08:45 between consecutive trains from Manchester to Sheffield on a weekday morning. After then, services were roughly hourly at 09:45, 10:45, 11:45 and so on.

Thanks for posting this. Back up thread I was guessing the end would have been late 1970s so not too far adrift really, and like you say it was a very different operation back then compared to current times, as obviously now patronage must be significantly greater.

Busaholic · 4 Sep 2019

70014IronDuke said:
You made it to Preston?!! The 18.35 would have only got into Piccadilly at around 23.00 - unless they did some skip stopping because of the Euston disruption. But BR didn't normally do that IMX.

We definitely got onto a train to Preston, the last bus to the Larches Estate in Preston had long gone, but black cabs were copious from the rank outside so no worries. We were young, I don't suppose it phased us. Nowadays, the stress would kill us. Oh, probably had our two cats with us too!

Manchester to St Pancras in 1972?

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