New trains for East Midlands Franchise

MML · 23 Aug 2019

Much song and dance was made in the local media at the launch of a new half hourly Airport Express non-stop service between St Pancras and Luton Airport Parkway.
In reality this will just be the first stop on the London - Corby EMR Electric service utilising cascaded Class 360 EMU stock. But fair play to the propaganda department for hoodwinking the local media.
1. I estimate 7 trains will be required to fulfill the proposed timetable. Anybody able to confirm ?
2. Given there are 21 class 360 units available from GA, does this mean the standard formation will be 4, 8 or 12 car ?
3. First class accommodation is 2+2 seating. But much of the standard class is 2+3 seating more suited to commuter routes with little space provided for luggage.
One would hope a refit would take into account the need to match the comfort of intercity seating on class 22x units which they shall replace and also provide sufficient luggage space for those travelling to Luton Airport.
Class 332 Heathrow Express units are shortly to be retired with little prospect of the units themselves finding new owners. Could the interior seating and luggage stowages be re-used to refurbish the Class 360 units and provide the EMR franchise with a truly fit for purpose product ?

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2019

MML said:
2. Given there are 21 class 360 units available from GA, does this mean the standard formation will be 4, 8 or 12 car ?

I think logic would be to follow roughly what LNR does, i.e. 8-car most of the time and 12 for with-flow peak services, maybe 4 at very quiet times.

Nym · 23 Aug 2019

Class 466 said:
Not too quick if that’s what they plan on happening? Three fleets for three sub-brands. I don’t think they could’ve been much clearer!

As I've said many times now, fleet doesn't mean homogeneous fleet. GWR has a "Fleet" but it's not one type of train.

dosxuk · 23 Aug 2019

Kettledrum said:
I'm really pleased about this - particularly if it means the Derby to Crewe services stop running as one coach trains.

So which service are they pinching the carriages off? I suspect it'll just mean even more overcrowding on Nottingham to Liverpool.

krus_aragon · 23 Aug 2019

dosxuk said:
So which service are they pinching the carriages off? I suspect it'll just mean even more overcrowding on Nottingham to Liverpool.

In the earlier linked video, the MD said "as early as this December when the 156s come across from a sister company we'll have minimum two-car operation on all of our lines." So they anticipate having extra stock to do that with, rather than pinching from other services.

Jozhua · 23 Aug 2019

dosxuk said:
So which service are they pinching the carriages off? I suspect it'll just mean even more overcrowding on Nottingham to Liverpool.

They're getting more 156's cascaded down from Greater Anglia I believe.

If anything Nottingham to Liverpool should run all 158's if the regional fleet has to borrow less?

Baxenden Bank · 23 Aug 2019

Pleased to see that I will be getting trains with more capacity 'soon' on Derby-Crewe. But are the trains any good?

My main gripe with the 153's is the absolute lack of legroom. Some being worse than others. Are the seats on current EMR, or future ex-Anglia 156's, better spaced? On the 153's I can ONLY sit in the table seats, and only then if there is no-one opposite. Otherwise it's stand all the way or squash in crooked taking up a double seat and later alight with a painful back and knees. It really does deter me from traveling on the route except when absolutely essential.

I traveled on Monday. Still a single 153, still had EMT branding, no free cakes or other new franchise freebies!

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2019

All 156s are better spaced than 153s even though the interior is very similar otherwise.

Jozhua · 23 Aug 2019

Baxenden Bank said:
Pleased to see that I will be getting trains with more capacity 'soon' on Derby-Crewe. But are the trains any good?

My main gripe with the 153's is the absolute lack of legroom. Some being worse than others. Are the seats on current EMR, or future ex-Anglia 156's, better spaced? On the 153's I can ONLY sit in the table seats, and only then if there is no-one opposite. Otherwise it's stand all the way or squash in crooked taking up a double seat and later alight with a painful back and knees. It really does deter me from traveling on the route except when absolutely essential.

I traveled on Monday. Still a single 153, still had EMT branding, no free cakes or other new franchise freebies!

So by 2020, the 153's will not be able to run on their own, due to not meeting PRM requirements and the cost of upgrading the fleet has been deemed not worth it!

This means that two carriage services such as Derby - Crewe will probably become entirely 156's and the 153's will be used to lengthen trains with PRM compliant units such as the 156's and 158's.

The legroom situation on 153's is bad, although I'd argue not even the worst on the network! (that prize goes to Northern and the airline 150's) The 156's as a whole are better legroom wise, I'd rate them as 'adequate'. Plus, they have the priority seats with extra legroom! I think the 156's are a little bit quieter as well.

Roast Veg · 23 Aug 2019

MML said:
Much song and dance was made in the local media at the launch of a new half hourly Airport Express non-stop service between St Pancras and Luton Airport Parkway.
In reality this will just be the first stop on the London - Corby EMR Electric service utilising cascaded Class 360 EMU stock. But fair play to the propaganda department for hoodwinking the local media.
1. I estimate 7 trains will be required to fulfill the proposed timetable. Anybody able to confirm ?
2. Given there are 21 class 360 units available from GA, does this mean the standard formation will be 4, 8 or 12 car ?
3. First class accommodation is 2+2 seating. But much of the standard class is 2+3 seating more suited to commuter routes with little space provided for luggage.
One would hope a refit would take into account the need to match the comfort of intercity seating on class 22x units which they shall replace and also provide sufficient luggage space for those travelling to Luton Airport.
Class 332 Heathrow Express units are shortly to be retired with little prospect of the units themselves finding new owners. Could the interior seating and luggage stowages be re-used to refurbish the Class 360 units and provide the EMR franchise with a truly fit for purpose product ?

I'm not sure if the local media has been "hoodwinked" - there will be a half hourly service form London to Luton Airport. What more are you hoping for?
6 sets has been thrown around by forum members a few times, if true then theoretically all services could be 12 car - certainly I'd expect no less than 8 car diagrammed on all services.
The trains need an interior refit anyway, which will almost certainly take out the 2+3 seating and replace it with new seating. No point negotiating with the innards of the 332s since there aren't nearly enough.

cnjb8 · 23 Aug 2019

Jozhua said:
Yeah, I'd argue 158's are nicer than 170s anyway so I'd have no quarms about those staying!

To be fair stopping single carriage 153 running is almost certainly going to make a big difference. 3 carriage trains should help relieve some overcrowding at rush hours.

MML said:
Much song and dance was made in the local media at the launch of a new half hourly Airport Express non-stop service between St Pancras and Luton Airport Parkway.
In reality this will just be the first stop on the London - Corby EMR Electric service utilising cascaded Class 360 EMU stock. But fair play to the propaganda department for hoodwinking the local media.
1. I estimate 7 trains will be required to fulfill the proposed timetable. Anybody able to confirm ?
2. Given there are 21 class 360 units available from GA, does this mean the standard formation will be 4, 8 or 12 car ?
3. First class accommodation is 2+2 seating. But much of the standard class is 2+3 seating more suited to commuter routes with little space provided for luggage.
One would hope a refit would take into account the need to match the comfort of intercity seating on class 22x units which they shall replace and also provide sufficient luggage space for those travelling to Luton Airport.
Class 332 Heathrow Express units are shortly to be retired with little prospect of the units themselves finding new owners. Could the interior seating and luggage stowages be re-used to refurbish the Class 360 units and provide the EMR franchise with a truly fit for purpose product ?

The 158s will be edging 40 by the time franchise finishes and the 332s aren't the most reliable of trains. In fact 360s replaced them when they were temporarily removed from service.

RealTrains07 · 23 Aug 2019

Jozhua said:
So by 2020, the 153's will not be able to run on their own, due to not meeting PRM requirements and the cost of upgrading the fleet has been deemed not worth it!

This means that two carriage services such as Derby - Crewe will probably become entirely 156's and the 153's will be used to lengthen trains with PRM compliant units such as the 156's and 158's.

The legroom situation on 153's is bad, although I'd argue not even the worst on the network! (that prize goes to Northern and the airline 150's) The 156's as a whole are better legroom wise, I'd rate them as 'adequate'. Plus, they have the priority seats with extra legroom! I think the 156's are a little bit quieter as well.

Wouldn’t surprise me considering they have more than 1 carriage to both spread and noise and create more room

RealTrains07 · 23 Aug 2019

Class 466 said:
Not too quick if that’s what they plan on happening? Three fleets for three sub-brands. I don’t think they could’ve been much clearer!

Plan aint gonna work any time soon. Not enough available 170s like i said it’s unrealistic at this time

Jozhua · 23 Aug 2019

cnjb8 said:
The 158s will be edging 40 by the time franchise finishes and the 332s aren't the most reliable of trains. In fact 360s replaced them when they were temporarily removed from service.

To be fair, compared to many other 30 year old trains, they don't feel like it! If the reliability holds up, I wouldn't have any quarms with them hitting 50.

EMT's refurb makes them feel more modern than the 170's! Certainly more comfortable compared to my experience on XC's.

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2019

Jozhua said:
EMT's refurb makes them feel more modern than the 170's! Certainly more comfortable compared to my experience on XC's.

I think 170s appear dated because the ribbon glazing is a very 1990s/early 2000s look, whereas the more basic "tube with rounded corner windows" of 158s is fairly timeless.

That said, 158s with Grammer IC3000 seating are good - these, ScotRail's and the Welsh ones.

Jozhua · 23 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I think 170s appear dated because the ribbon glazing is a very 1990s/early 2000s look, whereas the more basic "tube with rounded corner windows" of 158s is fairly timeless.

That said, 158s with Grammer IC3000 seating are good - these, ScotRail's and the Welsh ones.

Definitely agree! Whilst the BR era seems to have built many trains worthy of the scrapheap, the 158's are not one of them.
Will be excited to see what Northern do with theirs, the refurb looks to bring them up to scratch with interiors that rival 195's/331's.

Perhaps with a good refurb 170s will offer an improvement over 158's, without a refurb they'll definitely be an improvement over 156/3's, but not rival some of the better trains in the regional fleet!

Goldfish62 · 23 Aug 2019

cnjb8 said:
The 158s will be edging 40 by the time franchise finishes and the 332s aren't the most reliable of trains. In fact 360s replaced them when they were temporarily removed from service.

Also the 332s don't have TPWS so that's an immediate extra cost.

swt_passenger · 23 Aug 2019

I’ll be as pleasantly surprised as the next bloke if the incoming 360s are given a completely different interior layout, but at the same time I would urge caution. There’s plenty of existing trains doing similar length journeys with 2+3 layout...

MML · 23 Aug 2019

I wasn't suggesting using 332s in place of the 360s, just using the HEX interior seating and luggage stowages in the 360s if money was tight.

Best option would be a total refit with 2+2 seating throughout and sufficient luggage space.
But using existing 2+2 seating and combining with redundant HEX interior might be cheaper and would certainly be better than simply re-upholstery of the existing 2+3 layout. Middle seats are too cramped and there will be insufficient space for airport luggage.

As for 'hoodwinked' media, some broadcasts had interpreted the announcement of a dedicated Airport Express service with brand new trains. I suppose only us Forum users have learned to read between the lines of press announcements.

RealTrains07 · 23 Aug 2019

MML said:
I wasn't suggesting using 332s in place of the 360s, just using the HEX interior seating and luggage stowages in the 360s if money was tight.

Best option would be a total refit with 2+2 seating throughout and sufficient luggage space.
But using existing 2+2 seating and combining with redundant HEX interior might be cheaper and would certainly be better than simply re-upholstery of the existing 2+3 layout. Middle seats are too cramped and there will be insufficient space for airport luggage.

As for 'hoodwinked' media, some broadcasts had interpreted the announcement of a dedicated Airport Express service with brand new trains. I suppose only us Forum users have learned to read between the lines of press announcements.

Do the 360s still have a guards compartment? If so, that could be removed to create space for seats or luggage space in the EMR refurbishment.

Similar thing has been done with its 350 and 450 relatives

hooverboy · 23 Aug 2019

MML said:
I wasn't suggesting using 332s in place of the 360s, just using the HEX interior seating and luggage stowages in the 360s if money was tight.

Best option would be a total refit with 2+2 seating throughout and sufficient luggage space.
But using existing 2+2 seating and combining with redundant HEX interior might be cheaper and would certainly be better than simply re-upholstery of the existing 2+3 layout. Middle seats are too cramped and there will be insufficient space for airport luggage.

As for 'hoodwinked' media, some broadcasts had interpreted the announcement of a dedicated Airport Express service with brand new trains. I suppose only us Forum users have learned to read between the lines of press announcements.

I think 2+2 seating with a mixture of airlines +tables is the most likely option.

not dissimilar to the EMR 156'S/158's(soon to be 170's).
as long as they get the seat materials and contours right they could be quite comfortable.Present 360's are a bit on the hard side,like electrostars(377's)
GA 170's are quite decent for a 2 hour journey,so that's the sort of metric they need for a regional express.
XC 170's seem to be a bit cramped on legroom.

a bit of extra luggage space(both overhead and adjacent to doors) would not go amiss either.

edwin_m · 23 Aug 2019

MML said:
I wasn't suggesting using 332s in place of the 360s, just using the HEX interior seating and luggage stowages in the 360s if money was tight.

The first class in the 332s is 1+1 so that's not going to happen for a start. And with only 14 332 units, albeit some of five cars, there won't be enough Standard seats to fit out all the 360s especially as they will probably have a higher-density layout and less First.

The HEX is a unique product for the unique characteristics of Heathrow, where there are enough non-price-sensitive travellers to justify it. Gatwick and Stansted Express are a long way downmarket reflecting the clientele at those airports, and Luton's market position is similar.

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2019

As the Grammer E3000 seats are the same width regardless of whether it's 3+2 or 2+2 (I didn't think this, but the appearance of light green base cushions in 350/1s made it obvious), they could convert the existing seats to 2+2 using new frames - or even go for narrow 2+2 with increased standing space by simply removing the third seat (as Merseyrail did to the 50x years ago before the proper refurb).

SWT did the same thing with the 458s.

Nym · 23 Aug 2019

dosxuk said:
So which service are they pinching the carriages off? I suspect it'll just mean even more overcrowding on Nottingham to Liverpool.

I was thinking about this earlier, one could see 158+153+(153) on the Nottingham to Liverpool sections to rob sufficient 158s and 156s to run other services. That will be fun

Mikey C · 23 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
As the Grammer E3000 seats are the same width regardless of whether it's 3+2 or 2+2 (I didn't think this, but the appearance of light green base cushions in 350/1s made it obvious), they could convert the existing seats to 2+2 using new frames - or even go for narrow 2+2 with increased standing space by simply removing the third seat (as Merseyrail did to the 50x years ago before the proper refurb).

SWT did the same thing with the 458s.

If you space the seats apart then the "narrow" seats are fine. The 458/5s to me are very comfortable

Trainfan2019 · 23 Aug 2019

I'm probably the only one here who likes class 153 :oops:

but I'm ok with the legroom. Ideally Crewe to Derby should be 2 carriages even if 153s for now.

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2019

Trainfan2019 said:
I'm probably the only one here who likes class 153 but I'm ok with the legroom.

I'm assuming you're a dwarf or a double above-the-knee amputee?

Jozhua · 24 Aug 2019

Trainfan2019 said:
I'm probably the only one here who likes class 153 but I'm ok with the legroom. Ideally Crewe to Derby should be 2 carriages even if 153s for now.

Do you dislocate your legs and fold them upwards?

You've got to let us know your trick.

whhistle · 24 Aug 2019

Nym said:
As I've said many times now, fleet doesn't mean homogeneous fleet. GWR has a "Fleet" but it's not one type of train.

However, as I have said many times, EMR have confirmed there will be just three classes of train.
This will be the new bi-modes, Class 360s and (unconfirmed, but likely) 170s.
That is the current plan, which could change but is unlikely.

whhistle · 24 Aug 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Wrong. Their are hydrogen trains coming too as specified in the franchise agreement so thats 4 types of stock

Okay. You win.

Those are a red herring to the stock plans and discounted in nearly all of this discussion. You ain't gonna see hydrogen trains running to London!

Sorry I don't have access to the internal documents that detailed EMRs plans anymore.

New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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