The South Western Main Line despite being the primary rail route to Weymouth is certainly not the best of intercity routes. Between Moreton and Dorchester South, it is only single track which limits the frequency of trains that can pass through, while limitations to the third rail electricity supply mean that only 5-car trains can pass through, reducing capacity further. The section of line in question is also not particularly fast, with services to London taking a lot longer than those to the capital from Exeter, some 60 miles further west. Seeing as Dorset is my home county, I think it’s a shame that much of it not very well connected to the national rail network. I would therefore be interested to find out if there any plans for redoubling this stretch or upgrading the electricity supply to allow longer and faster trains to serve Weymouth.
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Could the SWML be upgraded west of Poole?
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59CosG95
Established Member
The problem of electricity supply affects pretty much all of SWR's electrified network - every power supply point from Waterloo to Weymouth would need to be upgraded again(!) if longer trains west of Poole were to become reality. It certainly doesn't help that 750V DC is markedly less energy-efficient than 25kV 50Hz AC, either.
swt_passenger
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It isn’t really an intercity route in the normal sense, and AFAICS there are no published upgrade plans. I suspect they’ve done the sums and found that 2 x 5 car trains west of Poole will be adequate for many years to come.
The main speed limitation is actually the stops along the way where most of the revenue is - this gets rediscovered every time changes are discussed!
The core issue is that Weymouth users want new fast limited stop services and the existing stopping ones as well which comes with huge cost but not much extra revenue.
swt_passenger
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Yes, as with the failed plans made in the last timetable consultation. So called ‘stakeholders’ pushed DfT for a faster service, and got it into the franchise spec, and then when the exact timetable details appeared they then found no one wanted to lose all the intermediate calls, so they’ve basically gone back to the existing setup after public pressure. Exactly the same happened with the West of England line users who wanted to speed up the Waterloo time while at the same time keeping all the existing calls at Woking and Clapham Jn...
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I suppose Weymouth could be compared to Weston -S-M, to which some London trains are extended. It's a large town, at 52,000 population, to which effectively outlying suburbs like Chickerell can be added. Dorchester has expanded to 19,000 with the odd-ball twee suburb of Poundbury recently added to it, like an architectural carbuncle. Together with a wealthy rural hinterland, populated nowadays largely by incomers, it may justify an inter-city quality service, and it gets one in the shape of smart class 444 trains. Unfortunately, they do stop a lot on the way from Weymouth to Poole. I use the service and never resent this, as the commuting element helps keep demands for new road building, in our lovely Dorset, at bay.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Would AC provide better acceleration than DC? Not that it is likely to get changed from DC 3rd rail at 750V to 25 kV AC OHLE.
Wychwood93
Member
The 444/450's are quite good from a standing start and maintain a mph/sec up to around 35 or 40 mph. Beefing up the juice would be handy although little call, apart from odd circumstances, for 10-cars west of Poole. Passenger usage west of Poole also not stunning - Weymouth at 735k the only one higher than 'my' Christchurch (519k). 2017/2018 figures. Raising the PSR above 85 would have little impact in running time - it would help, yes, but would not help a great deal. A 'fast' to Waterloo should perhaps only call at Weymouth, Dorchester, Wareham, Poole and Bournemouth - and then as usual? Re-doubling Moreton to Dorchester would help pathing - the singling known locally as 'Heckford's folly'.
Given the number of Service personnel who use Wool station I wouldn't be surprised if the useage figures aren't as high as Wareham. Fond memories of using Wool, especially on the specials for the boy soldiers block leave. First stop Waterloo pulled by a Southern Pacific although it usually took three hours.
Wychwood93
Member
The 2017/18 figures for Wareham are 340k and for Wool 191k.
I stand corrected.
Doubling would perhaps support a two tier express and local service better. The line is attractively 'busy' rather than crowded. As an alternative, I suspect that a Weymouth to Yeovil Junction and then fastish to Waterloo, would give a much improved connectivity with London from the Dorchester and Weymouth areas.
Maybe if there’s extra diesel/Bi modes, but not for another 10 years will you get regular fast via Westbury trains. Redoubling May help, but surely resignalling Dorchester box (and moving it into Basingstoke DC panel at the same time?) would also help.
I think it boils down to everyone wanting faster journeys but not sacrificing too much either. I’m sure people from Southampton and Havant love their super fast Sunday services, but being on the platform at Petersfield and Winchester watching a nearly empty 10 car train rattle through at 90mph while you wait 20 minutes in the rain for your train isn’t much fun.
Wychwood93
Member
Wareham the 'change here for the Isle of Purbeck' place. Has the additional advantage of being a stop on the 'fast' (in places) - only of benefit really if you are going to London. The 'semi' better for changing at Soton for GW and Southern services, and Bomo for XC for Reading and the North! A touch off topic I know.
Do they need a proper network of more local services, similar to Brighton and the Coastway - to mop up some of the local connectivity and enable skip stopping and/or faster London trains?
Southampton lacking in platforms though, but perhaps Portsmouth could be an eastern edge, and merge a few things. Or use Salisbury/loop.
Southampton lacking in platforms though, but perhaps Portsmouth could be an eastern edge, and merge a few things. Or use Salisbury/loop.
swt_passenger
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A local stopping service Weymouth to Portsmouth was exactly what was specified by DfT in the ITT. Once it became understood by users, albeit about a year later when the draft timetables were published, the objections became overwhelming.
I wonder had there been 2 fast trains an hour and the local to Portsmouth if there still would have been the same amount of complaints.
Kite159
Veteran Member
How much money would it cost to bring up the standard of the bay platform at Southampton to passenger standards signalling wise?
Not a huge amount, it’s currently a GPL, but if they done it the same time as the commissioning of the new millbrook freight signals it would be easier.
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Probably not (as its the 2 services to London that were important), but still bemusement to most of us, as there is already a method of going to Portsmouth (change at Southampton), and that would have remained the quicker option than the proposed slow stopper to Portsmouth that would go via Southampton!
I am sure that there was a Bournemouth-Portsmouth service not that long ago that went from a bay platform at Bournemouth. It was noticeable as the unit was in a different livery to the usaual SW trains colours.
It should also be remembered that there in one train an hour between Bournemouth and Southampton courtesy of XC Manchester service.
Given the current fashion for bimodal trains it could well be that they cod be used as a boost to the current power limitations.
If Southampton is the limiting factor for numbers of services you could run a stopping service between Weymouth & (say) Brockenhurst to allow the existing services to be a bit quicker (for instance run a skip stop pattern so that every station had a direct service to London every 2 hours).
As others have suggested going via Yeovil is another contender. Especially if there's scope to build a new chord to avoid the need to faff around so much at Yeovil and/or a new passing loop between Yeovil and Dorchester. Of course such upgrades could be done after it has been shown that such a service is viable.
You probably would need much extra stock (possibly mostly just swapping some more 159's on a 1:2 basis with some 2 coach 158's These could be run out of London and then split at Salisbury/Yeovil with part running to Exeter and the other part running to Bristol/Weymouth.
For instance peak time you could have a 10 coach train leave Waterloo, 3 coaches split at Salisbury to head to Bristol, with a further 2 split to head to Weymouth at Yeovil with the remaining 5 coaches heading all the way to Exeter.
You would need some extra units, but probably no more than a handful.
For instance swap 4 X 159's for 8 X 158's plus a further 8 X 158's (+24 coaches to a current fleet of 110) would give you 26 of each and therefore nearly enough for all
(obviously it would be the case of it weren't for the Salisbury 6 services through Southampton) 159's to be paired with a 158 to create many more 10 coach trains (or 7 or 5 or any other combination which is longer than the current setup).
If Southampton is the limiting factor for numbers of services you could run a stopping service between Weymouth & (say) Brockenhurst to allow the existing services to be a bit quicker (for instance run a skip stop pattern so that every station had a direct service to London every 2 hours).
As others have suggested going via Yeovil is another contender. Especially if there's scope to build a new chord to avoid the need to faff around so much at Yeovil and/or a new passing loop between Yeovil and Dorchester. Of course such upgrades could be done after it has been shown that such a service is viable.
You probably would need much extra stock (possibly mostly just swapping some more 159's on a 1:2 basis with some 2 coach 158's These could be run out of London and then split at Salisbury/Yeovil with part running to Exeter and the other part running to Bristol/Weymouth.
For instance peak time you could have a 10 coach train leave Waterloo, 3 coaches split at Salisbury to head to Bristol, with a further 2 split to head to Weymouth at Yeovil with the remaining 5 coaches heading all the way to Exeter.
You would need some extra units, but probably no more than a handful.
For instance swap 4 X 159's for 8 X 158's plus a further 8 X 158's (+24 coaches to a current fleet of 110) would give you 26 of each and therefore nearly enough for all
(obviously it would be the case of it weren't for the Salisbury 6 services through Southampton) 159's to be paired with a 158 to create many more 10 coach trains (or 7 or 5 or any other combination which is longer than the current setup).
I would suggest that was the short lived Connex/Southern service from the early 00’s to Victoria or Brighton via Havant. That was a good 15 years ago at least though.
There currently is a Brockenhurst- Portsmouth service, and Winchester to Bournemouth Bay service.
The Bournemouth to Victoria service actually ran from 1994 until 2003.
Dougal2345
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But I can't imagine anyone electing to take a 158/9 from Weymouth to London when there is the alternative of a 444, even if the former option could be made to be slightly faster... the main problem with the current Bournemouth to Portsmouth trip is that the quickest option involves changing from a pleasant 444 to a revolting 158 - if they ever do run through electric services I'll be using them even if they're not the fastest...
The refresh on the 158s isn’t too bad, as long as it stands the test of time... the turbos however.
I think the majority of passengers base their travel plans on
A) is it direct
B) how quick is it
C) how many trains an hour are there
C) how much does it cost
D) is there a chance I can get away with paying less.
Most don’t give 2 hoots if it’s a 444 or a 159... to many they’re practically the same thing.
E) what's the chance of getting a seat.
Of course the main advantage of the via Yeovil route is that it creates a direct service from the likes of Salisbury and Andover and adds passengers to services which would otherwise be starting to empty out.
paul1609
Established Member
Try a 375 stopping (not hs1) service on the Southeastern mainline and compare it to the Southwestern "Mainline" service from Waterloo and I suggest you will be surprised at where the high third rail performance is, the 375 will be coasting at 100 between Sevenoaks and Tonbridge and in the 90s between the stops on to Ashford as a result of the enhanced electrification for Eurostar. Once a year I like to travel down to the Swanage railway from headcorn and performance on the Southwestern is always disappointing.
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