West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia

LNW-GW Joint · 21 Aug 2019

Andrew*Debbie said:
There aren't any direct flights from MAN to the western USA. For many destinations, Heathrow or Gatwick are better connected than Manchester.

My solution is KLM from Manchester to Amsterdam and then virtually anywhere.
Anything to avoid Heathrow.
There are direct flights from Manchester to places like Las Vegas and other leisure destinations, and Virgin are expected to start a Los Angeles service soon.
Asia has direct flights to Singapore and Hong Kong, which are major hubs onwards (eg Australia/NZ).
Also some flights to China.
With luggage and mobility problems, the train option to Heathrow is unattractive.

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 21 Aug 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
My solution is KLM from Manchester to Amsterdam and then virtually anywhere.
Anything to avoid Heathrow.

I used to hold that view, but Terminal 5 and the Queen's Terminal are excellent. They've moved Heathrow (as long as it's not T3/4) from my avoid list to my actively choose list. Truly world-class terminals.

TrainTube · 21 Aug 2019

Andrew*Debbie said:
We've done that twice with a connecting flight from MAN to LHR. Once time our flight was delayed 4 hours due to fog. We had to sprint across Heathrow and barely made the flight to LAX. Another time our luggage didn't make the connection. It turned up nearly two weeks later.

If you aren't flying entirely on BA, connecting at LHR can be fun.

We live on Anglesey. BNG to MIA has improved but most journeys are 2:50 with 2 changes. The flight to LHR is 1:10 gate-to-gate. Train to Euston and tube to LHR is cheaper and often takes less time. Taxi to Paddington + HX is faster than flying out of Manchester.

We much prefer taking the train to London and flying direct from LHR.

Fare enough, do you reckon a lot of people do similar? I know that people in the South West and Midlands and Maybe Manchester/Liverpool go to LHR/LGW but I never thought Scotland would be the case.

TrainTube · 21 Aug 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
My solution is KLM from Manchester to Amsterdam and then virtually anywhere.
Anything to avoid Heathrow.
There are direct flights from Manchester to places like Las Vegas and other leisure destinations, and Virgin are expected to start a Los Angeles service soon.
Asia has direct flights to Singapore and Hong Kong, which are major hubs onwards (eg Australia/NZ).
Also some flights to China.
With luggage and mobility problems, the train option to Heathrow is unattractive.

I'd have thought it would be less attractive than a connecting flight, but is apparently not the case.

LNW-GW Joint · 21 Aug 2019

Denyboy said:
I'd have thought it would be less attractive than a connecting flight, but is apparently not the case.

It is a connecting flight, just on KLM in a nicer airport (Amsterdam) than Heathrow, with no need to battle down there from the north.
The fares are very competitive, and there are more KLM connecting flights to Amsterdam than there are BA flights to Heathrow.
Air France via Paris is another option but not as pleasant a place to change.
I think we are off-thread, but I much prefer a short rail leg to Manchester and a continental airline hub than the Heathrow option.
You can also fly direct to one of the US eastern hub airports (my preference is Atlanta) and then get to anywhere in North America.

Andrew*Debbie · 22 Aug 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
There are direct flights from Manchester to places like Las Vegas and other leisure destinations,

Debbie tried MAN - LAS - LAX and has put the Manchester - Las Vegas flight on our permanent avoid list.

Debbie travels a lot. She usually fills up her passport before it expires.

I'm looking forward to the bi-modes on the North Wales run.

The Ham · 22 Aug 2019

Andrew*Debbie said:
Debbie tried MAN - LAS - LAX and has put the Manchester - Las Vegas flight on our permanent avoid list.

Debbie travels a lot. She usually fills up her passport before it expires.

I'm looking forward to the bi-modes on the North Wales run.

(Trying very hard not to stereotype)

I do wonder if the issues with a Manchester Las Vegas fight would likely be similar with a London Las Vegas fight or even a Friday evening flight to Prague with a few stag do's.

TrainTube · 22 Aug 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
It is a connecting flight, just on KLM in a nicer airport (Amsterdam) than Heathrow, with no need to battle down there from the north.
The fares are very competitive, and there are more KLM connecting flights to Amsterdam than there are BA flights to Heathrow.
Air France via Paris is another option but not as pleasant a place to change.
I think we are off-thread, but I much prefer a short rail leg to Manchester and a continental airline hub than the Heathrow option.
You can also fly direct to one of the US eastern hub airports (my preference is Atlanta) and then get to anywhere in North America.

Sorry wasn't clear, I meant I thought train travel from far destinations to LHR/LGW was less attractive than a connecting flight, e.g KLM to Amsterdam or even an internal flight to London (although these aren't cheap).

Andrew*Debbie · 22 Aug 2019

We've tried the alternates and keep coming back to train + direct flight from LHR as the best option.

Debbie gets in three hours of work on the train. I get us two teas from the shop and Debbie settles down to work. I shouldn't have to convince people on this forum about the advantages of rail travel

We are waiting for details on new rolling stock to North Wales. I always try to reserve two seats at a table on VT. That gives Debbie room to spread out and work during the journey.

I'm also eager to find out what "simple more flexible fares and smart ticketing" will mean in practice.

Andrew*Debbie · 22 Aug 2019

The Ham said:
(Trying very hard not to stereotype)

Gambling addicts aside, VS don't put their best on that route. Debbie said the hard product was the worst she's seen in ages. The food wasn't very good either even though she was in Premium Economy.

yorkie · 22 Aug 2019

Just a reminder this thread is to discuss the West Coast franchise being awarded to First Trenitalia; if anyone wishes to discuss anything else, please create a new thread.

Speculation can go in the Speculative Ideas forum, while if anyone wants advice on planning a journey, please use Trip Planning & Reports.

This thread is already over 600 pages long, so if anyone wishes to go into detail about any particular aspect of the franchise changeover, a new thread for that might be a good idea too.

Thanks

Aictos · 22 Aug 2019

I'm looking forward to First Trenitalia running the WCML, I look forward to seeing what they can bring after decades of Virgin Trains.

No more cheesy PR marketing hopefully!!!

Agent_Squash · 22 Aug 2019

Aictos said:
I'm looking forward to First Trenitalia running the WCML, I look forward to seeing what they can bring after decades of Virgin Trains.

No more cheesy PR marketing hopefully!!!

Cheesy marketing that has continued to increase WCML usage YoY.

pdeaves · 22 Aug 2019

Agent_Squash said:
Cheesy marketing that has continued to increase WCML usage YoY.

Hopefully, non-cheesy marketing could do that, too. We shall see (if they take the non-cheesy direction)!

mmh · 22 Aug 2019

Agent_Squash said:
Cheesy marketing that has continued to increase WCML usage YoY.

It's often struck me that the only people who think Virgin have been unquestionably awful are, I'm afraid, the media and trainspotters.

The media latched on, understandably, to how bad it was immediately post privatisation, and during the WCML upgrade, but never let go of that.

The trainspotters latched on to a big loco-hauled fleet being completely replaced by multiple units, and never let go of that.

There are things they can legitimately be criticised for, unregulated fare increases in particular. The service though isn't one of them. Their marketing and branding - nobody who's not already decided they don't like them cares.

Aictos · 22 Aug 2019

pdeaves said:
Hopefully, non-cheesy marketing could do that, too. We shall see (if they take the non-cheesy direction)!

Great Western Railway uses the Famous 5 to advertise their services, a classy move not loud in your face cheesy marketing out of the book of Ryanair etc...

Substance is always more important over style or as a former tutor used to lecture quality over quantity!

stj · 23 Aug 2019

6Gman said:
Which age group is this that "don't travel by train anymore"? I see all age groups from 0 to 90 as I travel around.

Maybe over 50s? I dont use them much as too expensive and I need to sit down these days.Ironic I use Trenitalia more than UK rail,always get a seat,faster and cheaper.

zn1 · 23 Aug 2019

i have never had a problem with Virgin, the services I used were well used, i stood a couple of times between EUS & MKC. what would make a diifference would be to make all the 390's 12 car, instead of the 9-11 car squadrons, the 221 demu squadron, are the best to fall asleep on i think.

the press and gricers have given Virgin a bad time, most of the time unjustified, The WCML should have been an EMU operation before virgin took over, IF BR had been allowed to finish the APT-P shakedown operations and the full squadrons bought in to traffic, virgin wouldnt have had the problems.

if anything the WCML should have been allocated a squadron of Class 91 and MK4s, when Intercity tendered for them, and the treasury should have shelled out for them and the Networkers that both sectors wanted.

In essence the 90s and the DVT's were the poor mans option.

The WCML Deserved so much better.

Virgin finally got the main line to 125mph operation and APT -P via their grandchildren got the job

I wish the New operator of the WCML intercity operation Good Luck, but dont go breaking things that work....listen to your ground staff...

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2019

Pendolinos can't be extended because they are no longer built, unless you were to order some new units and split some existing sets to make up the other ones (which would involve some wasted coaches because of the need for extra transformers in longer sets). That said, 11x24m + 2m (the end coaches are 1m longer) is longer than 12x20m - they are the longest trains in daytime UK service already.

I believe Mk4s were built for the possibility of going to the WCML (hence the tilt profile), but Mk4s are rubbish anyway - cheap and nasty and a very poor ride. In the latter days of BR I think IC250 (Mk5 coaches) was the plan, wasn't it?

There's a fair bit of detail on the plan here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_250

Most notably the plan was for 160mph long-term - without tilt!

USRailFan · 23 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Pendolinos can't be extended because they are no longer built, unless you were to order some new units and split some existing sets to make up the other ones (which would involve some wasted coaches because of the need for extra transformers in longer sets). That said, 11x24m + 2m (the end coaches are 1m longer) is longer than 12x20m - they are the longest trains in daytime UK service already.

I believe Mk4s were built for the possibility of going to the WCML (hence the tilt profile), but Mk4s are rubbish anyway - cheap and nasty and a very poor ride. In the latter days of BR I think IC250 (Mk5 coaches) was the plan, wasn't it?

There's a fair bit of detail on the plan here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_250

Most notably the plan was for 160mph long-term - without tilt!

Wasn't the original plan to have APTs on both the ECML and WCML, but the Class 90s, DVTs, extra Mk 3s and the Mk 4s came in the wake of the APT's failure?

rdlover777 · 23 Aug 2019

Also, pendolinos are set up in such a way that it had to 11car instead of the 10 original planned

anamyd · 23 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Pendolinos can't be extended because they are no longer built, unless you were to order some new units and split some existing sets to make up the other ones (which would involve some wasted coaches because of the need for extra transformers in longer sets). That said, 11x24m + 2m (the end coaches are 1m longer) is longer than 12x20m - they are the longest trains in daytime UK service already.

I believe Mk4s were built for the possibility of going to the WCML (hence the tilt profile), but Mk4s are rubbish anyway - cheap and nasty and a very poor ride. In the latter days of BR I think IC250 (Mk5 coaches) was the plan, wasn't it?

There's a fair bit of detail on the plan here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_250

Most notably the plan was for 160mph long-term - without tilt!

All of those 11 car Pendolinos consist of 9 vehicles built in Birmingham in 2001-2004, and 2 vehicles built in Italy in 2009-2012, so totally doable!

LNW-GW Joint · 23 Aug 2019

anamyd said:
All of those 11 car Pendolinos consist of 9 vehicles built in Birmingham in 2001-2004, and 2 vehicles built in Italy in 2009-2012, so totally doable!

The final set of 106 Pendolino vehicles in 2012 was definitely the last of that design.
All Pendolino vehicles were/are produced in Italy, the first batch being fitted out in Birmingham, the second in Savigliano.
Alstom will sell you more Pendolino vehicles, but they would need to be of the new generation now in production in Italy, for which there isn't (yet) a UK-gauge version.

ainsworth74 · 23 Aug 2019

That's enough chat about Mk4s and the history of traction on the WCML. They have nothing to do with the current partnership award so further discussion will be deleted as being off-topic. If anyone wishes to continue what is, to be fair, an interesting conversation please do so on a new thread.

RealTrains07 · 23 Aug 2019

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but when the WM franchise ends in 2026 (the same year HS2 opens) and the franchise splits the LNR part will be incorporated into the West Coast Partnership

Which means regarding things like the new Wasall intercity services. First will have control over all the local regional services as well as the virgin ones

LNW-GW Joint · 23 Aug 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but when the WM franchise ends in 2026 (the same year HS2 opens) and the franchise splits the LNR part will be incorporated into the West Coast Partnership
Which means regarding things like the new Wasall intercity services. First will have control over all the local regional services as well as the virgin ones

That may possibly happen, but it is not enshrined in the WCP franchise contract, any more than LNER absorbing the GN part of GTR is in the East Coast Partnership.
If it does happen, it only replicates what happened out of Liverpool St and Paddington on the "one TOC per London terminus" policy (temporary) of the SRA.
Waterloo has never had multiple operators.
Franchise policy is up in the air anyway pending what the Williams review fallout is.

pdeaves · 23 Aug 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
Waterloo has never had multiple operators.

Strictly not quite correct. The Wales & Borders franchise ran timetabled services to Waterloo. Admittedly they were few and far between and the point stands.

Tetchytyke · 23 Aug 2019

Agent_Squash said:
Cheesy marketing that has continued to increase WCML usage YoY.

The upgrade and the high frequency timetable had nowt to do with it? It's all been Spandau Ballet? Hmm.

mmh said:
It's often struck me that the only people who think Virgin have been unquestionably awful are, I'm afraid, the media and trainspotters.

They're not unquestionably awful, but I'm not sure why so many on here seem to have their tongue so far up Branson's fundament.

The advertising actively grates, I know I'm not the only one to mutter an expletive when that bloody Beam jingle plays or when the bog starts answering back. I'll be glad to see the back of Virgin just for that alone.

The product on Virgin is fraying. The staff- if you ever see them- are actively hostile, the trains are in a disgusting state, and it's pot luck whether your reserved seat is there. Today's trip from Carlisle to Glasgow included most windows in my carriage having blown double glazing, no ticket checks, shop staff who were actively disgusted I was disrupting their social time by wanting drinks for my daughter and me, and coffee that tasted like Mellow Birds when they finally did make it. Arrive awesome? Aye, right. But I did arrive broadly on time.

Aictos · 23 Aug 2019

Arctic Troll said:
The upgrade and the high frequency timetable had nowt to do with it? It's all been Spandau Ballet? Hmm.

They're not unquestionably awful, but I'm not sure why so many on here seem to have their tongue so far up Branson's fundament.

The advertising actively grates, I know I'm not the only one to mutter an expletive when that bloody Beam jingle plays or when the bog starts answering back. I'll be glad to see the back of Virgin just for that alone.

The soft product on Virgin is fraying. The staff- if you ever see them- are actively hostile, the trains are in a disgusting state, and it's pot luck whether your reserved seat is there. Today's trip from Carlisle to Glasgow included most windows in my carriage having blown double glazing and coffee that tasted like Mellow Birds. Arrive awesome? Aye, right.

One issue I have with Virgin Trains is their belief that it's them and only them who take full credit for who upgraded the WCML and it's infrastructure, nothing to do with the fact that it was a industry thing with partners such as Network Rail etc...

Sometimes it pays to be humble and Virgin don't do humble.

Tetchytyke · 23 Aug 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
Franchise policy is up in the air anyway pending what the Williams review fallout is.

Williams' review will be "more of the same, but mind you don't insist on the fat cats putting some of their own money in".

West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia

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