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Government announces independent review into HS2 programme

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6Gman

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HS2 is being sold on the news as being for the north and yet I don't see the benefit. The line won't reach the north until 2032, at the earliest and i would be astonished if it isn't simply stopped at Birmingham to save money.

The line is planned to reach Crewe (which is in the North West of England - just!) around 2027. Which will cut journey times to points beyond by c.30 minutes.
 

class26

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HS2 is being sold on the news as being for the north and yet I don't see the benefit. The line won't reach the north until 2032, at the earliest and i would be astonished if it isn't simply stopped at Birmingham to save money.

What will the north get from this? Faster links to London? The TGV network shows that the benefits to regional cities from fast rail connections were nowhere near as high as the proponents of those lines claimed. Meanwhile HS2 is a huge blackhole which swallows up the countries rail investment.

Alright I agree that as far as the north is concerned, it doesn't matter. No chance that London politicians and civil servants will divert HS2 money to Northern transport investment. Neither will the London based media in this country pressure them to do so. The establishment in this country only cares about the south east.

It is however absurd that we are getting a massively expensive line to London, when the East-West connections between the major cities of the north are a slow joke. It would cost a fraction of HS2's budget to upgrade the Hull-Liverpool routes, which cross most of the major population centres of the north. Yet politicians and civil servants in London can't even find the money to electrify the route, let properly upgrade it.

Well maybe the review will recommend starting in the north also and meeting in brum ? We will need some job creation after brexit I think and this would allay fears that the north will get forgotten about yet again. Also inked into NPR
Just a thought
 

Glenn1969

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I live in the north. I care more about connectivity between Northern cities and the need for all three Transpennine routes to be electrified than I do about South WCML capacity. IMHO also the need for South ECML capacity is just as great
 

Robertj21a

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The line is planned to reach Crewe (which is in the North West of England - just!) around 2027. Which will cut journey times to points beyond by c.30 minutes.

Not a massive improvement in time really given that it's a minimum of 8 years away (if indeed it ever gets built), by which time even more people will be working from home/away from London. Quite apart from likely train fares being unaffordable for many of the more casual travellers.
 

Sceptre

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Telecommuting as a replacement for actual commuting is always five years in the future, just like how hydrogen fuel cells to replace diesel are also five years in the future.

End result is a Prime Minister whose government approves only nine miles of electrification after ten years in office.
 

Camden

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Unclear what Edwardian parts of the railway you're referring to here. In any case HS2 doesn't replace any part of the current railway; it adds to it.
Rephrased:

"If HS2 was worth going ahead with, it would include AUGMENTING the Edwardian parts of our country's railway, never mind the Victorian.
But instead, at political behest, it was designed to do no such thing and instead steers well away."

Not so long ago, a cutting wall partially collapsed outside a major city's main line train station (at the end of the oldest, Edwardian era railway route), narrowly missing a train full of commuters.

Later, when dealing with interim fixing up of this issue, it was then found that overhead gantries at this station were so badly corroded that it was lucky they also hadn't crushed a train.

The Edwardian era rail route exiting this station then proceeds atop of so much mush that trains bounce and jolt around, and at one point not so long ago trains were noticeably proceeding at caution over it.

This line alone carries millions of passengers a year (twice, in fact, the number going between Manchester and Leeds).

Instead of "augmenting" this route as a priority inside this supposedly national project, its very remit precluded that and continues to preclude it from doing so, despite it being a city for which the WCML was designed to connect, and despite the HS2 line drawing close (despite that it has been made to contort in the opposite direction), and despite HS2 being proven wrong on every claim used to defend their position.

HS2 is a bald man's drawing on a map, written up into a report and ordered to be built, and to hell with the consequences.
 
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The Ham

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I'm not convinced people would want to pay premium fares to use HS2 anyway. If u asked a passenger in Manchester would they like to pay for arguments sake 80 quid to get to London in 2 and a quarter hours or pay say 120 quid and get there 45 minutes quicker I genuinely believe the vast majority would take the cheaper slightly slower but still fast pendolino.

However if the current wcml is downgraded to all stations class 350s that may tempt some onto HS2 which is what will No doubt happen, but in my view is totally immoral. Telling the customer either, pay more , or your current standard of service will be reduced.

Why would there need to be a premium applied to ticket prices?

Virgin effectively has already through the LNW only tickets.

Running costs are likely to be less, at least on a per seat basis, what with journey time savings face positive costs on staff and train lease costs.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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End result is a Prime Minister whose government approves only nine miles of electrification after ten years in office.

Are you talking about Tony Blair (Crewe-Kidsgrove)?
His successor Gordon Brown approved Great Western and North Western electrification (which the Tories then reapproved after review).
 

JonathanH

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Because HS1 (St Pancras to Kent) has a premium ticket price.

For long distance travel HS1 actually doesn't have a premium ticket price relative to the classic route (other than that advance purchase tickets aren't valid in the morning peak). The premium only applies on 'internal' services on the Southeastern network and to destinations just beyond London.
 

Ethano92

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Why would there need to be a premium applied to ticket prices?

I might be dreaming but I could've sworn I've read HS2 will have premium fares, maybe from a copy of Modern Railways although I wouldn't know which month. I'm fairly certain it was talking about how because of this HS2 won't actually attract people out of cars or away from planes.
 

Andyjs247

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"Predicted" by whom ?

The Brexit Party for one - not that I believe anything they say. An advert did appear in the Oxford Mail in July quoting £100bn for HS2.
Realistically, £56 billion seems about right, perhaps a high-end figure but reasonable, after allowing for inflation. Higher figures, where not scaremongering, are most likely the result of risk management. The government expects HS2 Limited to shoulder all the costs of 'what if it goes wrong', and HS2 Limited are pushing those costs on to their subcontractors. The risk budget can add up to a lot of the project's up-front costs, since the contractors will always pad their estimates in a way that ensures they make a profit.

I too think £56bn is about right - I have not heard £100bn from any official source - just fake Brexit news. So I complained about the ad to the ASA but was told political advertising falls outside the UK Code of Advertising and Promotional and Direct Marketing (the Code). Rule 7.1 states “Claims in marketing communications, whenever published or distributed, whose principal function is to influence voters in a local, regional, national or international election or referendum are exempt from the Code”.

Utter ****!!! My response to the ASA was ‘what election and why should they be allowed to lie just because they are a political party? And why should they be exempt from rules that others in society have to adhere to. I have yet to receive a reply....
 

camflyer

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Telecommuting as a replacement for actual commuting is always five years in the future, just like how hydrogen fuel cells to replace diesel are also five years in the future.

End result is a Prime Minister whose government approves only nine miles of electrification after ten years in office.

Technology has reduced the need for business travel but will never totally replace it. I travel much less for work than I did 10 or 20 years ago but there are still instances when face to face meetings are required.
 

Bletchleyite

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Technology has reduced the need for business travel but will never totally replace it. I travel much less for work than I did 10 or 20 years ago but there are still instances when face to face meetings are required.

I do agree, but in "telecommutable" jobs that's not a daily commute with outward for 9am and return after 5:30pm, it's more random and as such doesn't cause the same level of "peakiness" with travel patterns. For instance, companies with any sense will organise meetings to start later so an Off Peak ticket can be used and save a load of money for them. And if it's a one off you might choose to hang around in London for a meal instead of taking the peak train home (I've done this, certainly).
 

The Nomad

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If HS2 does get canned then at a minimum I want to see significant improvements to Sheffield to Leeds (faster and more services), full electrification of the MML, Sheffield to Doncaster electrified, Sheffield to Leeds electrified.
I'm with you on these upgrades, but with the absence of HS2 when do you think NR can action this electrification? Look at the disruptions, cost and time overruns for the GWML. Would you and others be happy for weekend closure for years to do this? HS2 would give another route, so that these lines could be upgraded.

HS2 is being sold on the news as being for the north and yet I don't see the benefit. The line won't reach the north until 2032, at the earliest and i would be astonished if it isn't simply stopped at Birmingham to save money.
If people had supported HS2 straight off then it would be being built now and benefits would be seen sooner. As it is, we're just delaying and delaying benefits.

What will the north get from this? Faster links to London? The TGV network shows that the benefits to regional cities from fast rail connections were nowhere near as high as the proponents of those lines claimed. Meanwhile HS2 is a huge blackhole which swallows up the countries rail investment.
Faster links between Manchester and Birmingham, Leeds and Birmingham? I'm pretty sure (although no expert on TGV) that the double rake of double-deck TGVs does show the benefits of HSR. And as said repeatedly NR is spending record amounts renovating and building new parts of the network, especially looking at upgrading the Manchester - Leeds line (a favourite of the anti-HS2 people).

Alright I agree that as far as the north is concerned, it doesn't matter. No chance that London politicians and civil servants will divert HS2 money to Northern transport investment. Neither will the London based media in this country pressure them to do so. The establishment in this country only cares about the south east.
Firstly, that's where the greatest concentration of people are so per capita, that would make sense. I agree that jobs should be spread more around the country, but this adds to HS2's case, not detracts. People have to be able to get around the country reliably and quickly. Money has to be prioritised where it will see a return on investment, so that money can be further invested.

It is however absurd that we are getting a massively expensive line to London, when the East-West connections between the major cities of the north are a slow joke. It would cost a fraction of HS2's budget to upgrade the Hull-Liverpool routes, which cross most of the major population centres of the north. Yet politicians and civil servants in London can't even find the money to electrify the route, let properly upgrade it.
As said above, NR ARE looking at the transpenine route, see here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...plan/key-projects/transpennine-route-upgrade/. But how and when do you think the lines can be upgraded? I remember something like 5 years of weekend closures to upgrade it. Would you be happy with this? Surely you can see that it makes sense to build an alternative route first?

The big problem I see is that opponents mainly follow the "as it doesn't benefit me, it should be cancelled" ideology. Then seeing the money as up for grabs to be invested in whichever pet line they want. IIRC Northern tickets have some of the highest subsidies of all, so why would NR spend billions on new lines only to subsidise these further. It's not like Northern is running 11 car Pendolinos.

A further risks with the opposition to HS2 is that if there is such hostility to new investment, government and NR may shy away in future from new lines - including the transpenine upgrade. It would be far better in the long term to fully support new investment in new lines so that benefits can be seen for further investment elsewhere.
 

AM9

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Are you talking about Tony Blair (Crewe-Kidsgrove)?
His successor Gordon Brown approved Great Western and North Western electrification (which the Tories then reapproved after review).
I think it's an acknowledgement that the major schemes GW & NW were already under way but the Conservatives approved the electrification of 9 miles of the c.13 mile long GOBlin. The other 4 miles were already electrified at Barking to Dorest Gate junction and South Tottenham. Not much of a track record though.
 

HSTEd

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I might be dreaming but I could've sworn I've read HS2 will have premium fares, maybe from a copy of Modern Railways although I wouldn't know which month. I'm fairly certain it was talking about how because of this HS2 won't actually attract people out of cars or away from planes.
Why would it have premium fares?
HS2 trains will cost less to run than conventional trains.
The Government will want to encourage everyone to transfer to them because it costs them less in subsidy this way.

We would would expect them to do everything possible to move people onto the high speed system.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I think it's an acknowledgement that the major schemes GW & NW were already under way but the Conservatives approved the electrification of 9 miles of the c.13 mile long GOBlin. The other 4 miles were already electrified at Barking to Dorest Gate junction and South Tottenham. Not much of a track record though.

Yes but the same (Coalition) government also approved MML, Electric Spine, Bromsgrove, Rugeley and all the now-cancelled schemes in the 2012 HLOS.
There may be nothing much to show for it, and Network Rail spent the budget on GW/NW overspends, but the intent/funding was there.
 

swt_passenger

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I might be dreaming but I could've sworn I've read HS2 will have premium fares, maybe from a copy of Modern Railways although I wouldn't know which month. I'm fairly certain it was talking about how because of this HS2 won't actually attract people out of cars or away from planes.
I don’t think you have, in my experience 99% of the talk of premium fares occurs in forum posts from those anti-HS2.
 

The Ham

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I don’t think you have, in my experience 99% of the talk of premium fares occurs in forum posts from those anti-HS2.

All the official/business case talk has quoted ticket prices comparable to the existing.

Unless someone can provide a source to the contrary.
 

6Gman

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Not a massive improvement in time really given that it's a minimum of 8 years away (if indeed it ever gets built), by which time even more people will be working from home/away from London. Quite apart from likely train fares being unaffordable for many of the more casual travellers.

I was merely correcting the claim that HS2 wouldn't reach "the north" until 2032. (Of course, all this faffing about is likely to delay it further.)
Working from home/ away from London/ Broadband/ Skype are all cited as reasons why HS2 isn't needed. Yet the funny thing is that despite all the technology of the last 20 years demand for rail travel continues to grow ...
The fares issue has been discussed many times. No evidence that it will be "unaffordable".
 

Sceptre

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I think it's an acknowledgement that the major schemes GW & NW were already under way but the Conservatives approved the electrification of 9 miles of the c.13 mile long GOBlin. The other 4 miles were already electrified at Barking to Dorest Gate junction and South Tottenham. Not much of a track record though.

Pretty much; the Blair government, especially under Darling, were ambivalent at best towards public transport. In some cases, such as Metrolink or Leeds Supertram, they were openly hostile to it. The one good thing about Andrew Adonis was that he made Brown give a toss about the railway.
 

Ianno87

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I don’t think you have, in my experience 99% of the talk of premium fares occurs in forum posts from those anti-HS2.

Regular reminder that HS2 is replacing WCML Pendolino services, which are already premium priced in the peak. So HS2 is likely to be no more premium priced than the existing railway already is.
 
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