Terry Tait
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Staying in South London just now and having used 376s recently they are really looking tired, I was wondering if they are due a midlife refurbishment?
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Class 376 looking rather tired
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MatthewRead
On Moderation
There isn't much point as they due to leave after the new South Eastern franchise.
brad465
Established Member
Say what you like about them they're one of the few classes to have not had anything done to them since introduction (from what I've seen anyway). The livery is a legacy of the nationalised operation between Connex and Southeastern, and could well have been done on the basis of the Connex livery before they lost the franchise early.
Are they?
MatthewRead
On Moderation
Well it's up to the new South Eastern franchise.
The award of which has been cancelled and yet another Direct Award made for the next 2 years or so.
Extended to April next year. 8 months.
Mikey C
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South Eastern is in a state of limbo, so the stock continues to look shabby and run down, especially the Metro units
Isn't it then being run the same way as LNER for a bit.
No, not at all.
Oh alright, not sure where I recall that from them
LNER wasn't a direct award, they took over from VTEC who were removed. South Eastern haven't been removed, it's just as you were but with an extension. Similar to CrossCountry and countless others recently!
Roger Ford in the latest Modern Railways bought today writes about whether the South Eastern franchise should be taken over by the operator of last resort in the same way as LNER took over from VTEC.
LNER is run by the operator of last resort - basically a publicly owned franchise appointed by DfT wheras franchises like Great Western and Cross Country have been given direct awards to continue running their franchises.
LNER is run by the operator of last resort - basically a publicly owned franchise appointed by DfT wheras franchises like Great Western and Cross Country have been given direct awards to continue running their franchises.
This is indeed what I thought was happening yet I simply don't know where I got the idea from, I'm backtracking on articles and threads etc, I haven't read the September addition of modern railways yet. Thanks to @Darandio for the explanation though.
My logic to bring this into this thread was that if they already knew who was operating the franchise after April, (themselves) they could begin to sort what stock would be replaced and so what stock was worth refurbishing. I'm certainly loosing it!
I remember reading somewhere that a Direct Award was not possible as it had to be agreed 12 months prior to it being taken up (or something like that? don't quote me on that!
). I wouldn't say you are loosing it, it is quite easy to get misled along the way by inaccurate posts, but I couldn't say if/what was the inaccurate post in this case (even this post might lack accuracy!)It isn't, they haven't been stripped of the franchise.
Prestige15
On Moderation
These would be perfect for Southern, Theres currently 46 class 455 there, all 36 376's could replace them with the other 10 can be 377/6
And where would those extra 377/6 come from as Bombardier no longer make Electrostars? The routes would also need some serious upgrades for 10 car trains.
Only a small number of 455 services could easily be replaced with 10car ones.
Prestige15
On Moderation
Guess...
You would have to displace 4-377+3-377+3-377 formations with 5-376+5-376. However, as some 377/3s operate on the Redhill to Tonbridge line, there are only about 12 such workings. That only displaces 12 455s given the need to operate 8-car services on almost all of the parts of the Southern network that 455s operate on.
Wivenswold
Established Member
You need to add the availability of 30 x 707s. The DfT will not allow them to fall into disuse and they will be deployed on either Southern or South Eastern. DfT have also taken ownership of the Class 365s so clearly have a plan for them. Expect a plan in a few months for a rolling stock reshuffle. The DfT will be keen to be able to say "we're adding xxx seats" to services at a minimal cost as part of a plan for Britain to distract us from the impending economic meltdown and constitutional crisis.
Mikey C
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36 5 car 458s as well!
But then I'm not sure the DfT will care. If the new franchisee chooses to buy new stock instead of reusing existing ones, why would they intervene?
I'm having trouble guessing where the extra 377/6s will come from so do enlighten us with out suggest more will be built.
Exactly, DfT effectively got diddled on the 707s as an extortionate mid franchise change at very high cost with underwhelming performance compared to other current options hence all down to Angel to do some magic on spec/(upgrade) or price or both.
The 458s 5car and upgrade was also underwhelming on spec as they did little to the interior apart from removing seats so it is sub optimal and the doors aren't that wide either so dwell times will never be great.
Prestige15
On Moderation
No, heres my suggestions, you may disagree on it.
376 for metro plus 10 or more class 377/6 converted to metro style units to work along with the 376 which will be more than enough to replace all the 455's. The 377/6 thats being converted can be replace by other 377's or some or all 387 from GN and the units from GN can be replaced by 379's.
Or perhaps compleatly rebuilt the 376 with a diesel engine on the middle car (bi mode) and use them on the Uckfield and Ashford line.
Milo T.K
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It's probable but then it already has turbostars and the 376s won't help on Southern metro as the 455s just had their upgrades just pit em on the Coast way or something
Bonkers and completely unecessary.
I'm not sure you are that familiar with the southern routes or rolling stock.
Southern has a mix of 8 and 10car metro routes. With the 4car 455s operating the services on the 8car routes and a small number of services on the 10 car routes hence only a small number of units for 10car running would be needed to go all 10 car on the 10 car routes with the rest needing to be in 8 car format.
The 455 utilisation is low so no where near 46 replacement units would be required only circa 32 units with 8x 5car and 24x 4 car.
The 377/6 (&/7) interior is already fairly metro and they have the advantage of aircon unlike the 376s.
The /6 also get used on longer distance services at the weekends to help even up mileage accumulation rates and optimise maintenance intervals.
A small number of 376s may be a solution to directly replace a few 455 but not much more.
Uckfield - current turbostars are 240m max but 376s are 200m max then proposing losing another 20m per unit down to 160m usable length won't work. Hence and under floor solution and re-engineering into a mix of 6car for Uckfield and 4car for Marshlink would be needed.
Then there is also the newer/better spec rolling stock substitution requirement in the franchise agreement.
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377s have plug doors and a substantially different body shell. Probably not feasible to covert them to 376s without extortionate amount of work.
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