Let's close your local hospital. That's not going to affect the majority of the UK's population.
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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...
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Let's close your local hospital. That's not going to affect the majority of the UK's population.
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
If they'd defined the undefined option. Or as that wasn't possible at the time they should have made clear beforehand that a Leave vote would be a mandate to negotiate, and the best deal obtainable would then be put back to the people.
krus_aragon
Established Member
From the Government's point of view, that would have made the "leave/negotiate" option more appealing. They wanted a resounding "remain" result instead. (Also, the ability to revoke Article 50 unilaterally wasn't established yet.)
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Yet another aspect of the political miscalculation that led to this situation. Was it known at the time that the EU wouldn't negotiate until A50 was invoked?
Killingworth
Established Member
Whatever, we are where we are and as hard as we may look nobody in any position of political authority is prepared to drop anchor and say STOP. Where is that a man or woman? All the world wonders.
Why am I reminded of a famous poem commemorating an event on 25th October 1854, into the valley of death. A recording of the Charge of the Light Brigade is here;
The Charge of the Light Brigade
By Alfred, Lord Tennyson
I
Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
“Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns!” he said.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
II
“Forward, the Light Brigade!”
Was there a man dismayed?
Not though the soldier knew
Someone had blundered.
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
III
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of hell
Rode the six hundred.
IV
Flashed all their sabres bare,
Flashed as they turned in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wondered.
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right through the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reeled from the sabre stroke
Shattered and sundered.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.
V
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell.
They that had fought so well
Came through the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.
VI
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!
Why am I reminded of a famous poem commemorating an event on 25th October 1854, into the valley of death. A recording of the Charge of the Light Brigade is here;
The Charge of the Light Brigade
By Alfred, Lord Tennyson
I
Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
“Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns!” he said.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
II
“Forward, the Light Brigade!”
Was there a man dismayed?
Not though the soldier knew
Someone had blundered.
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
III
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of hell
Rode the six hundred.
IV
Flashed all their sabres bare,
Flashed as they turned in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wondered.
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right through the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reeled from the sabre stroke
Shattered and sundered.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.
V
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell.
They that had fought so well
Came through the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.
VI
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!
DerekC
Established Member
Which, I believe, is what Mr Farage suggested long ago.
PS - I am sure Bullsh*t Boris knows the history of Charge of the Light Brigade - it was a cockup within a marginal defeat within a very expensive and badly fought war which didn't have a clear winner. He was right on the button!
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Is Johnson set to re-enact the actions of Lt. General James Thomas Brudenell, 7th Earl of Cardigan, leading the nation this time instead of a Brigade of Horse?
EM2
Established Member
Yes. Or rather, it should have been. The text of Article 50 (my emphasis):
- “Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
- A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
- The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
- For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it. A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
- If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.”
EM2
Established Member
I'm going to assuming that this is a parody account, or a bot:
https://twitter.com/FunBrexit/status/1164569837093478404
https://twitter.com/FunBrexit/status/1164569837093478404
edwin_m
Veteran Member
It's more likely he will be one of the generals sat at HQ ordering others to do their dirty work. As you're no doubt aware, the current campaign "Led by Donkeys" takes its name from a similar attitude in a later war.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Of course, FoM has a direct or indirect impact on everyone who lives in the UK.
bramling
Veteran Member
Or let’s recruit British staff instead, rather than relying on a concept most of the population don’t want and won’t ever utilise.
DerekC
Established Member
Let's be careful about throwing Freedom of Movement overboard. As it applies to UK citizens to live and work anywhere in the UK and to leave the country and return freely it is one of the fundamental rights embodied in common law and going back to Magna Carta, so we tend to take it for granted. But because it is in common law and we don't have a written constitution there is nothing (except our adherence to the European Declaration of Human Rights) to stop a government passing laws which infringe it. So whatever our pro-or anti- EU views, let's remember that Freedom of Movement as a concept is a good thing.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Freedom of Movement is not what you think it is. In this context it means the freedom to move, reside in, and work in the EU without satisfying any formal entry requirements.
Nobody is suggesting keeping British citizens from leaving the country.
No let's just close it. I'm never going to use it so why would I care?
Where is your evidence that most of the population don't support freedom of movement?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
How would you feel if this supposition was seen by the Treasury as a novel way of keeping expenditure under an even tighter rain, by applying that ruling to ALL local hospitals? That is one way of how to affect the majority of the UK population.
Doppelganger
Member
- Joined
- 27 Jun 2011
- Messages
- 397
That won't happen any time soon as there simply aren't enough trained doctors and nurses. Nurses in particular are paid a pittance and there is little incentive to train, especially with the removal of all the bursaries.
As with most things the UK government has failed to properly invest in the future of the country and so those migrant workers are absolutely essential. But hey, that must be the EU's fault too...
Yes sounds good. And when there aren't enough doctors and nurses to fill the vacancies because we can't produce enough of them at home to meet the demand?
Bantamzen
Established Member
Just like that? I'm guessing there is a place somewhere were we can just spawn fully trained professionals somewhere in this country? And what about those jobs that British people seem to shun these days, how do you propose to fill them?
Howardh
Established Member
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- 8,152
Let's face it, even if we did, who in their right mind would want to work under the stress and conditions of the NHS? As soon as they could wouldn't they migrate to Canada, Australia etc?? Same applies arguably with teaching?
Killingworth
Established Member
The reality is that 50 years ago nurses and doctors were from the UK, trained and working in local medical services.
For at least the last 30 anyone with any knowledge of the NHS will have seen it swing the other way so we aren't training enough people, and those who are trained are lured away into other jobs, or to use their qualifications abroad.
Conequently we have become totally dependent on those who have been born and trained outside the UK to provide even the declining levels of service we now receive. Without them we'd have an even worse NHS. I had a correspondence with the BMA in 1998 about the training of doctors. They were concerned back then.
I hear people today complain that they can't understand the doctor, or the nurse doesn't understand them. The same people seem to have voted to leave the EU because they think it will give us British doctors and nurses aplenty. Most of those they complain about aren't from the EU anyway, so how that works is hard to tell.
30 years ago too many young people were avoiding NHS jobs. It wasn't just money, but the latest situation where senior doctors are declining extra hours because the tax sytem penalises them for doing so is not the fault of the EU. Very little is.
The fault dear Brutus is in ourselves, that we can't understand the intricate interlocking details of how modern society works. It will take at least a decade to turn the NHS round and that will have to include more motivated immigrants from somewhere. Taking them for a few months or years without the likely opportunity to remain won't keep enough to do that job.
When other countries impose prohibitively strict restrictions on who can go there, many if not most British citizens are effectively barred from leaving.
What do you mean by "leaving"?
Which countries are you thinking of?
What is "prohibitively strict"?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Is it now the case that NHS nursing staff are being trained up to degree level?
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
That’s only if you want to live there, not to simply leave the country and return.
Howardh
Established Member
- Joined
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You can't leave if you've nowhere to go because they won't let you in. Could I, for example, pack my case and go to, walk in and live/work in the USA or Australia just like I can, today, in the EU?
They wouldn't let me in as I wouldn't have the qualifications they wanted, or the low-level job vacancies, or if I were retiring I wouldn't have the savings or income they require (and anyone with convictions can forget it). None of those apply to me wanting to move to the EU today. After October who knows, but with the removal of freedom of movement then the chances are it will be just as difficult to move to Spain as it - well - anywhere else in the world. Therefore a substantial number of us are UK-locked.
Those that moved from the Uk to, say, Spain prior to the EEC/EU did so because they have jobs to go to where there were shortages, or could afford to retire there and be covered by their UK pensions and savings. They would have been granted resident permits/visas.
What surprises me, mmh, is that you know all this yet still make an issue of it. It's what you voted for, and you were fully informed at the time. So why sound surprised when we bring it up??
Howardh
Established Member
- Joined
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I can add to my post that there are questions as to whether, after Brexicide, ex-pat's state pensions will continue to rise with inflation or be frozen as they are if you retire to, say Canada, and whether or not they will have access to UK private pensions as they do today. I can't see why not, but then again wo won't have a "deal" to allow that to happen. Perhaps a Brexit voter could answer?
If pensions are frozen and/or can't be accessed, that must surely result in thousands and thousands of ex-pats in the EU returning home? That would put more pressure on housing, the NHS and local services.
If pensions are frozen and/or can't be accessed, that must surely result in thousands and thousands of ex-pats in the EU returning home? That would put more pressure on housing, the NHS and local services.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
No, and for good reason. Want to know why? It's because you've contributed nothing and will under-contribute to the economy as a retired person with a modest lifestyle.
That's also why Americans and Australians (and South Africans, like my good lady) can't just come here and work unless they can satisfy strict visa requirements. My other half pays an NHS surcharge on top of her tax and NI simply to work here.
This merely places you in the same position as the majority of the developed world; I do not see any unjust hardship if that were to become the case.
So it's fine to put pressure on local services and the health systems in other EU countries then? These are services someone else paid for and for which you, as a British person, never paid.
But this is reciprocal! So we have been paying for other Europeans to use British services with the understanding that we will be able to do the same in other parts of Europe in the future.
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