Southport to Manchester Piccadilly services to be reinstated

trainophile · 23 Aug 2019

Apologies if there's already a thread about this, but I have searched and can't find one. Please delete if duplication.

https://www.qlocal.co.uk/southport/...ce_return_hailed_by_Labour's_Liz-55039812.htm

News of the return of Southport's Manchester Piccadilly service has been warmly greeted by Labour's Parliamentary Candidate for the town, Liz Savage.

The service is due to run again from December after huge pressure from the Ormskirk, Preston and Southport Travellers' Association (OPSTA) and Labour campaigners.

OPSTA has revealed that a deal has been struck with rail company Northern which will see trains to Piccadilly restored, while also keeping those to Manchester Victoria.

The plan is that a twice hourly service east will alternate between the two routes, creating an hourly service to each destination.

Excellent news, they should never have stopped them in the first place.

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NoMorePacers · 23 Aug 2019

Great apart from the fact it renders Lostock-Wigan electrification pointless.

trainophile · 23 Aug 2019

NoMorePacers said:
Great apart from the fact it renders Lostock-Wigan electrification pointless.

Oh, that's a bit too technical for me to understand, but sorry to hear not everyone is happy about the news.

Bletchleyite · 23 Aug 2019

NoMorePacers said:
Great apart from the fact it renders Lostock-Wigan electrification pointless.

Why does it do that?

Flyingsprinter · 24 Aug 2019

Will this service be replacing another service on the castlefield corridor or is it an additional service through there?

Kite159 · 24 Aug 2019

Flyingsprinter said:
Will this service be replacing another service on the castlefield corridor or is it an additional service through there?

I believe the current Wigan - Alderley Edge services are extended to Southport with the current Leeds - Southport services cut back to Wigan in exchange.

Bovverboy · 24 Aug 2019

NoMorePacers said:
Great apart from the fact it renders Lostock-Wigan electrification pointless.

Bletchleyite said:
Why does it do that?

I presume the point that NoMorePacers was making is that it leaves only 1tph of scheduled services potentially using it, instead of the 2tph which would have prevailed otherwise.

Starmill · 24 Aug 2019

Electrification between Lostock Jn and Wigan is not funded, is it? And while it is definitely one of the better cases, is any more new electrification likely to be approved by this government? Quite where people are going from Southport that means they absolutely must have through trains to Manchester Piccadilly, though, I don't see. Clearly, though, it is reasonable to recast the entire timetable through Manchester around the constraint that somebody might want to do Burscough to Bournemouth with just one change every once in a while.

trainophile · 24 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
Electrification between Lostock Jn and Wigan is not funded, is it? And while it is definitely one of the better cases, is any more new electrification likely to be approved by this government? Quite where people are going from Southport that means they absolutely must have through trains to Manchester Piccadilly, though, I don't see. Clearly, though, it is reasonable to recast the entire timetable through Manchester around the constraint that somebody might want to do Burscough to Bournemouth with just one change every once in a while.

South Wales and major interchanges en route (I declare a personal interest in Hereford). Yes I can change at Salford Crescent but it’s a bit of a pain having to do that, especially in winter.

Besides, Manchester Victoria is one of the most depressing stations I’ve had the misfortune of having to use, and it isn’t even in the right location for the city centre.

Starmill · 24 Aug 2019

Ah haha, so it's not people going from Southport to Bournemouth, but people going from Southport to Hereford that we should change the whole timetable through central Manchester to suit the needs of! Well, I was pretty close, wasn't I :lol:

Nevermind that it's almost always quicker to change at Wigan and Crewe, or at Liverpool and Chester than to go via Manchester. It's unrealistic to expect people to change trains more than once.

trainophile · 24 Aug 2019

Lots of people from Southport go into Manchester for a day out, and unless I’m missing something I still say Victoria is in the wrong place for easy access to the main retail/eating areas of the city.

It was fine when we had the direct service to Piccadilly. Not everyone is young and fit enough to walk half a mile, or to change stations with suitcases etc.

I currently don’t find it impossible but none of us are getting any younger, and it seems to me that the majority of people in Southport who would go to Manchester during the day are elderly.

trainophile · 24 Aug 2019

As for changing on my way to Hereford, Crewe is a gamble if you want a seat, Chester is going the same way, which is why I much prefer to board at the start of the route i.e. Piccadilly. Currently my only option is to go into Liverpool first, which is a bit of a long way round.

Killingworth · 24 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
Quite where people are going from Southport that means they absolutely must have through trains to Manchester Piccadilly, though, I don't see. Clearly, though, it is reasonable to recast the entire timetable through Manchester around the constraint that somebody might want to do Burscough to Bournemouth with just one change every once in a while.

I've been to both Blackpool and Southport recently by train and would suggest that quite a lot of other users of both stations are inbound travellers. Blackpool is further from Manchester. Currently the slightly longer journey is quicker.

Many of us have to change trains in Manchester to get to either and once is better than twice. Piccadilly 13/14 isn't great, but standing on another busy island platform for a second change isn't welcome when it adds more time to the journey. I for one appreciate the forthcoming availability of through services from Piccadilly. (Southport's currently a better looking destination than Blackpool with its boarded up and derelict sea front properties. )

Ianno87 · 24 Aug 2019

trainophile said:
Lots of people from Southport go into Manchester for a day out, and unless I’m missing something I still say Victoria is in the wrong place for easy access to the main retail/eating areas of the city.

It was fine when we had the direct service to Piccadilly. Not everyone is young and fit enough to walk half a mile, or to change stations with suitcases etc.

I currently don’t find it impossible but none of us are getting any younger, and it seems to me that the majority of people in Southport who would go to Manchester during the day are elderly.

Victoria is *considerably* closer to the Printworks, Arndale Centre, Market St etc. than Piccadilly.

NoMorePacers · 24 Aug 2019

Bovverboy said:
I presume the point that NoMorePacers was making is that it leaves only 1tph of scheduled services potentially using it, instead of the 2tph which would have prevailed otherwise.

No, I was referring to the fact that after December, all services using the line will still be going onto lines that aren't, or aren't planned to be electrified in the near-ish future, so trains using the line would still have to be diesel.

Bletchleyite · 24 Aug 2019

Bovverboy said:
I presume the point that NoMorePacers was making is that it leaves only 1tph of scheduled services potentially using it, instead of the 2tph which would have prevailed otherwise.

769s (if they ever happen) could be used on the Picc to Southport service, if there aren't enough of them use pairs of 150s on the other diagrams. That would use it.

Ianno87 · 24 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
769s (if they ever happen) could be used on the Picc to Southport service, if there aren't enough of them use pairs of 150s on the other diagrams. That would use it.

But wouldn't materially benefit in terms of reduced operational costs to justify the electrification (only if a conversion to full EMUs were enabled)

YorkshireBear · 24 Aug 2019

trainophile said:
Lots of people from Southport go into Manchester for a day out, and unless I’m missing something I still say Victoria is in the wrong place for easy access to the main retail/eating areas of the city.

It was fine when we had the direct service to Piccadilly. Not everyone is young and fit enough to walk half a mile, or to change stations with suitcases etc.

I currently don’t find it impossible but none of us are getting any younger, and it seems to me that the majority of people in Southport who would go to Manchester during the day are elderly.

Victoria is way more convenient for most of manchester city centre in my opinion.

jfollows · 24 Aug 2019

YorkshireBear said:
Victoria is way more convenient for most of manchester city centre in my opinion.

I completely agree.

Maybe I should start a campaign for more through services from Wilmslow to Manchester Victoria (they do exist).

Truth is, though, that unless they were to travel via Denton, they would take longer to get from Piccadilly to Victoria than they take from Wilmslow to Piccadilly. Walking is bettter for me. But I don't do the journey daily.

Philip · 24 Aug 2019

Will this be worked by 195s then? Would've thought this would be best given the linespeeds of some sections.

Bletchleyite · 24 Aug 2019

Ianno87 said:
But wouldn't materially benefit in terms of reduced operational costs to justify the electrification (only if a conversion to full EMUs were enabled)

Not everything is about cost.

Ianno87 · 24 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Not everything is about cost.

Unfortunately, for railway investment, cost against benefit is important. With through working to Southport, the benefit of electrification is now significantly diminished.

trainophile · 24 Aug 2019

Well on the few times I have exited Victoria to kill a bit of time between trains, it isn't obvious even which way to go for the city centre. Whereas at Piccadilly it's pretty clear that you turn right and everything starts from there. Victoria seems to be tucked away in a back street, and a pretty uninspiring one at that.

As for the ambience in the station, the covered platforms are very dark and depressing. If they got the lighting sorted out that would be an improvement.

Ianno87 · 24 Aug 2019

trainophile said:
Well on the few times I have exited Victoria to kill a bit of time between trains, it isn't obvious even which way to go for the city centre. Whereas at Piccadilly it's pretty clear that you turn right and everything starts from there. Victoria seems to be tucked away in a back street, and a pretty uninspiring one at that.

As for the ambience in the station, the covered platforms are very dark and depressing. If they got the lighting sorted out that would be an improvement.

How hard can it be?! Walk for 3 minutes through Cathedral Gardens and you'll be in the Arndale Centre.

trainophile · 24 Aug 2019

Not everyone is familiar with Manchester.

edwin_m · 24 Aug 2019

Getting some proper fare integration with Metrolink would assist passengers from Southport or anywhere else to access a variety of places in the city centre and reduce the clamour for a particular station to be served in preference to another one. Interchange to the tram is much quicker at Victoria.

trainophile · 24 Aug 2019

I don't see why so much negativity. Apparently there are going to be alternate services to each station throughout the day. Best of both worlds, and suits people who need to get to either side of the city.

Ianno87 · 24 Aug 2019

edwin_m said:
Getting some proper fare integration with Metrolink would assist passengers from Southport or anywhere else to access a variety of places in the city centre and reduce the clamour for a particular station to be served in preference to another one. Interchange to the tram is much quicker at Victoria.

You can already buy through fares from outside Greater Manchester to Metrolink destinations, including the City Centre Zone.

mmh · 24 Aug 2019

trainophile said:
I don't see why so much negativity. Apparently there are going to be alternate services to each station throughout the day. Best of both worlds, and suits people who need to get to either side of the city.

Best of, and worst of, both worlds. Means you have to decide which you should go to for your return journey.

cle · 24 Aug 2019

If you can't find Deansgate or the Arndale from Victoria, then you probably shouldn't be out on your own.

Manchester has really good signage, maps and of course use your phone/ask people... honestly, people are so helpless.

Especially given the rise of Spinningfields and that area (for jobs but also dining etc) - Victoria is a much better fit. It's just that perceptions need to change, which takes time. Piccadilly is better for the gay village, NQ (arguably, it stretches between them) and Piccadilly Gardens/Chinatown area - but not for the main shopping really.

Southport to Manchester Piccadilly services to be reinstated

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