Island Line Railway - current state and the future

Xenophon PCDGS said:

The guided busway service ran during the rail strike ... the rail services did not. In cases such as this, what is the more important?

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I got a taxi to Wigan and caught a train from there.

Have SWR just invested in Cab Radio for Island Line?

These rather jerry-rigged structures have appeared at various locations along the line, while the 483s have sprouted some rather unflattering lumps on the roof - this presumably suggests some kind of cab radio system, though the lineside structures look temporary?

The lump looks like the smartest part of the roof!

They look a bit like Wifi aerials - but surely not?!

Chris125 said:

Have SWR just invested in Cab Radio for Island Line?

These rather jerry-rigged structures have appeared at various locations along the line, while the 483s have sprouted some rather unflattering lumps on the roof - this presumably suggests some kind of cab radio system, though the lineside structures look temporary?

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The 483s look so decrepit now it's sad

RichJF said:

The 483s look so decrepit now it's sad

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004 does let the side down unfortunately (though she's a good runner apparently), but to be fair the other units in use - 006 and 008 - look fine.

Mark J said:

Close the whole route down and turn it into a guided busway.

(Only joking by the way!) However some would love that to happen if they had the chance!

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Makes it quicker and easier to close down later on I guess!

Bletchleyite said:

They look a bit like Wifi aerials - but surely not?!

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IoW is clearly getting a test 6G network. These trains will be the first to offer 5Gbps Wi-Fi! This will allow things like low-latency state of the art VR applications, so you can travel and actually feel like you're living in the 1930s.

Oh, wait, you don't need any fancy tech to simulate that.

WiFi on them will be pointless when you struggle to get 3G on personal phones outside of Ryde.

There's an article on the Island Echo website about it being the 155th anniversary of the line's opening in 1864. At the end it mentions an announcement on the future is expected around October.

Major changes are also expected on South Western Railway’s service between Ryde Pier Head and Shanklin with Class 483 trains dating from 1938 set to be replaced. An announcement was due in May 2019 but things have been delayed. An announcement is now expected around October.

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Best to wait until October if the truth of the situation will then be revealed rather than to indulge in blind speculation.

Xenophon PCDGS said:

Best to wait until October if the truth of the situation will then be revealed rather than to indulge in blind speculation.

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This post could be equally appropriate in the EU Referendum Aftermath thread.

RichJF said:

The 483s look so decrepit now it's sad

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I had a quick bash on them this weekend.
the line is extremely busy this time of year, they certainly need some new/longer trains.

Random question: Does the current Isle of Wight fleet comply with the PRM requirements from 1st Jan 2020?

The recent modern railways article I think said that the fleet had been given an exemption

Sprinter150 said:

The recent modern railways article I think said that the fleet had been given an exemption

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How can they give an exemption, as they have all the PRM knowledge at their disposal. I would like to hear their legal defence of not offering Isle of Wight residents to whom PRM so applies if cross-examined in a case brought before the courts to challenge that decision. The Isle of Wight, to the best of my knowledge, is still subject to the Laws on the Statute Book.

Xenophon PCDGS said:

How can they give an exemption, as they have all the PRM knowledge at their disposal. I would like to hear their legal defence of not offering Isle of Wight residents to whom PRM so applies if cross-examined in a case brought before the courts to challenge that decision. The Isle of Wight, to the best of my knowledge, is still subject to the Laws on the Statute Book.

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I’m certainly no expert on this, but I’m sure I read something about a derogation (otherwise known as a temporary exemption- pending the long term solution awaiting announcement) being granted

Xenophon PCDGS said:

How can they give an exemption, as they have all the PRM knowledge at their disposal. I would like to hear their legal defence of not offering Isle of Wight residents to whom PRM so applies if cross-examined in a case brought before the courts to challenge that decision. The Isle of Wight, to the best of my knowledge, is still subject to the Laws on the Statute Book.

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Was (somewhat confusingly) in the SWR, rather than specific IOW article on the rolling stock

Ianno87 said:

Random question: Does the current Isle of Wight fleet comply with the PRM requirements from 1st Jan 2020?

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no. derogation for that line.those trains are only expected to last a year or two more.

the replacements are supposed to be compliant,whatever they are.
...most people of the belief it wll be some derivative of cl230

Ianno87 said:

Random question: Does the current Isle of Wight fleet comply with the PRM requirements from 1st Jan 2020?

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Island Line is specifically excluded from the 'Railway (Interoperability) Regulations 2011', which is what requires all rolling stock on the 'interoperable rail system' to be compliant with PRM TSI by 2020. Its also exempt from the 'mainline railway requirements' of 'Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations (ROGS)'

This is confirmed by SWR's Franchise Prospectus:

"Plans are in place for all classes of rolling stock within the current South Western fleet, within scope of the regulations, to be PRM TSI compliant by 1 January 2020. The Class 483 rolling stock, operated on the Island Line, are excluded from the requirements of these regulations"

Forget Cab Radio, it's 5G!

SWR have been trialling 5G for rail with Blu Wireless, and it seems they are doing it with 80 year old trains! The mast setup looks identical to that seen at 1:01 in the video below, while the black transmitters look very similar to those on page 9 of this pdf.

Chris125 said:

Forget Cab Radio, it's 5G!

SWR have been trialling 5G for rail with Blu Wireless, and it seems they are doing it with 80 year old trains! The mast setup looks identical to that seen at 1:01 in the video below, while the black transmitters look very similar to those on page 9 of this pdf.

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it's only a very basic trial.interesting video nonetheless.

establishing communication with a vehicle that's only doing 50kph is pretty easy.
for a network wide system,including HS2, you need a system that is capable of delivering good quality signal with minimum delay at 500kph...so you're in for a bit of a wait with 5g because that hasn't been developed yet,at least not commercially.
not to mention the frequencies that is working (either sub 6GHz and 28/39GHz mmWave) poses quite a few problems when you put obstacles in the way.
(beamformed and phased array antennas are ways of counteracting this,which is being looked at.from a rail perspecive this makes a lot of sense, beamform will work nicely strapped to a bit of catenery/gantry.the problem with high speed comms is doppler shift)

for the noobs, the best analogy of doppler shift is how ambulance horns always seem to get higher pitched as they move toward you,then lower pitched as they move away.....ok it's sound waves but a similar thing happens in radio comms.At really high speed it gets more difficult to lock on to the expected signal because it strays further from the "real" frequency.
In test and measurement language we use fading simulators to add/subtract bits of delay and reflection to waveforms to make it look like signals are from moving sources,or in built up areas etc.

at this point in time 200kph is do-able


700-900MHz LTE-R does tick the relevant boxes(tested and working at 450kph+),and a couple of systems have now been deployed and used in anger..as of 2017.

Sprinter150 said:

The recent modern railways article I think said that the fleet had been given an exemption

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hooverboy said:

no. derogation for that line.those trains are only expected to last a year or two more.

the replacements are supposed to be compliant,whatever they are.
...most people of the belief it wll be some derivative of cl230

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Chris125 said:

Island Line is specifically excluded from the 'Railway (Interoperability) Regulations 2011', which is what requires all rolling stock on the 'interoperable rail system' to be compliant with PRM TSI by 2020. Its also exempt from the 'mainline railway requirements' of 'Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations (ROGS)'

This is confirmed by SWR's Franchise Prospectus:

"Plans are in place for all classes of rolling stock within the current South Western fleet, within scope of the regulations, to be PRM TSI compliant by 1 January 2020. The Class 483 rolling stock, operated on the Island Line, are excluded from the requirements of these regulations"

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Thanks all.

Xenophon PCDGS said:

How can they give an exemption, as they have all the PRM knowledge at their disposal. I would like to hear their legal defence of not offering Isle of Wight residents to whom PRM so applies if cross-examined in a case brought before the courts to challenge that decision. The Isle of Wight, to the best of my knowledge, is still subject to the Laws on the Statute Book.

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Not ideal obviouslsy, but it's not as if existing accessibility is suddenly being made worse on 01/01/2020 - the status quo will remain pending a long term solution.

Plus the line (and indeed the whole island).is generally parallelled by decent, accessible, local bus routes that are probably better for accessing shops etc in towns anyway!

Ianno87 said:

Thanks all.



Not ideal obviouslsy, but it's not as if existing accessibility is suddenly being made worse on 01/01/2020 - the status quo will remain pending a long term solution.

Plus the line (and indeed the whole island).is generally parallelled by decent, accessible, local bus routes that are probably better for accessing shops etc in towns anyway!

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to be honest there's not really a great deal of work entailed into uprating the line for d78 stock in it's present form!
if vivarail have several dozen spare units(which they do), it could be done by getting some 750vdc power gear hand me downs from Southern/SWR/NR and reduce a bit of padding from the D stock to reduce the height.
the power gear is not such a big deal to test and refurb as required. 750vdc is going to become national third rail standard anyway with the london underground upgrades.it needs doing, might as well bite the bullet.

vivarail of course would prefer to do the full fit-out on their trains with aircon etc,but if they have a bit of slack in demand,and mr shooter reckons that less than 50% will be sold anyway,he's going to be looking for a way of cutting his losses and reducing his costs of buying the whole fleet.

ps : FWIW I now think that a 230 ,even a standard d-stock type(albeit 3 car), would be the ideal solution for the line(well about 10 sets of them).
having rode it recently the 2 car 483 is not sufficent for peak summer traffic.

i was thinking 313/507/508 would be the best ,but I now see the problem with the reverse curve in the tunnel.....shame really.could have got those for pennies.Seems an awful waste to see what are very decent little trains disposed on in this manner.the 1/3-2/3 doors are the issue here,wheras 230 they have end doors with middle doors sealed on marston vale,not such an issue with the curved platforms at esplanade

please,please,please IoW council,get your act together.
it's not rocket science to introduce a fully integrated IoW travelcard(full bus network+train network, and also from london like a travelcard),plus a municipal charge (tax de sojour in french) on tourist domiciles.
doesn't need much. £1.50-£2 per room per night pays for the all the gear in 3 years,power gear,rolling stock,the lot.
Nobody will mind that too much.
you can get finance if you prove to the bank you have a means of repayment.

if you don't like dealing with the banks then get the papers on the case and make david icke your island saviour with a go-fund-me page!.I'm sure he'd do his bit for the local economy and you'd get some very random backing from conspiracy theorists(actually why don't you host one of their conferences? maybe there's some mileage in shapeshifting reptilians!..seems to fill up in london!)

david icke is,after all, the messiah, so why not build a shrine?
works at area 51!!!

Chris125 said:

Island Line is specifically excluded from the 'Railway (Interoperability) Regulations 2011', which is what requires all rolling stock on the 'interoperable rail system' to be compliant with PRM TSI by 2020. Its also exempt from the 'mainline railway requirements' of 'Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations (ROGS)'

This is confirmed by SWR's Franchise Prospectus:

"Plans are in place for all classes of rolling stock within the current South Western fleet, within scope of the regulations, to be PRM TSI compliant by 1 January 2020. The Class 483 rolling stock, operated on the Island Line, are excluded from the requirements of these regulations"

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Has the above section from the SWR franchise prospectus ever been made the subject of any enquiry into the said exclusions by bodies acting for those who would be affected ?

Xenophon PCDGS said:

Has the above section from the SWR franchise prospectus ever been made the subject of any enquiry into the said exclusions by bodies acting for those who would be affected ?

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The SWR prospectus is merely re-stating the exemption of the IoW stock from the Railway (Interoperability) Regulations 2011. I.e. just stating the letter of the law, which is not up for debate as part of the franchise.

Are the train wheelchair accessible via portable ramps?

As it is, with the trains being so short, the conductor will be so close to hand, a disabled traveller will probably receive a better personal service than on the main network.

It's ironic that the 483s are the oldest trains in the UK have some of the newest equipment.

Andyh82 said:

Are the train wheelchair accessible via portable ramps?

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I think at most stations (Ryde Esplanade excepted) access is currently essentially level so ramps probably aren't needed (platform height is something that is almost always ignored by those suggesting various other stocks to work on the island). I don't know if there are wheelchair spaces on the trains though?

Do all Southern Vectis buses have a specific wheelchair space?