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Southport to Manchester Piccadilly services to be reinstated

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Bletchleyite

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As for the ambience in the station, the covered platforms are very dark and depressing. If they got the lighting sorted out that would be an improvement.

There's a minor issue of an arena on top. That said, if you got rid of all diesel working from it you could deep-clean the underside of the arena and upgrade the lighting with uplighters etc, which would make it feel far less New-St-esque.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Best of, and worst of, both worlds. Means you have to decide which you should go to for your return journey.

Though it's a very long-established service pattern which has existed since about 1998 (prior to which it was roughly 1tph to Picc and peak extras to Vic), and people don't seem to mind it. I think at lowish frequencies (to me that's anything below about 4tph) people will use the timetable and plan anyway, so it's no great issue. Bit of a nuisance if you just miss one, but that's not going to happen to people very often.
 

Bletchleyite

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Especially given the rise of Spinningfields and that area (for jobs but also dining etc) - Victoria is a much better fit. It's just that perceptions need to change, which takes time. Piccadilly is better for the gay village, NQ (arguably, it stretches between them) and Piccadilly Gardens/Chinatown area - but not for the main shopping really.

But also the Universities.
 

trainophile

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Another thing is that Virgin only operate out of Piccadilly, to the best of my knowledge. I don't know what the plans are under the new franchise, but I can't see that they are going to switch to Victoria. No doubt some will say that's not necessarily a plus for Piccadilly, but for relatively quick through trains to London it has to be a factor.
 

Staffordian

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It's always nicer to board a train at its starting point though ;) .
Agreed, but it does make the journey much longer. With the Dec t/t, leaving Southport on the 0917 to Alderley Edge would get you into Euston at 1210 with a change at Wigan or 1302 changing at Piccadilly. Depends how time-sensitive you are.
 

Philip

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In terms of the location, Victoria is in a much nicer part of the city centre than Piccadilly is, IMO. Piccadilly Gardens is a bit of an embarrassment to Manchester.

Back to my question, which rolling stock? Surely 158s minimum for this route, if 195s can't be used?
 

TrainTube

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Victoria is *considerably* closer to the Printworks, Arndale Centre, Market St etc. than Piccadilly.
Exactly what I was thinking, if you look on maps its closer than Piccadilly! Its also near Shudehill which is a bus interchange.
 

L+Y

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I'm not sure that is important as you can connect onto VT at Wigan.

As a student in London, I quite regularly used to travel London to Burscough in the early 2010s, and very rarely changed at Wigan- increased frequencies from Piccadilly meant the through services were invariably cheaper, and boarding at Picc meant a much better chance of getting luggage stowed away.

Now living in Wigan and travelling to London a lot with work, I'll *still* occasionally travel to Piccadilly to make a cost saving and for the luggage convenience.
 

Ianno87

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As a student in London, I quite regularly used to travel London to Burscough in the early 2010s, and very rarely changed at Wigan- increased frequencies from Piccadilly meant the through services were invariably cheaper, and boarding at Picc meant a much better chance of getting luggage stowed away.

Now living in Wigan and travelling to London a lot with work, I'll *still* occasionally travel to Piccadilly to make a cost saving and for the luggage convenience.

In railway planning terms, does giving Sandgrounders the luxury of two connectional oppotunities to Euston services (three if vis Liverpool included) really outweigh all of the other strategic needs the railway of the north needs to fulfill?

If you *really* want to travel via Piccadilly to Euston, the option remains of changing at Salford Crescent regardless.
 

Bletchleyite

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As a student in London, I quite regularly used to travel London to Burscough in the early 2010s, and very rarely changed at Wigan- increased frequencies from Piccadilly meant the through services were invariably cheaper, and boarding at Picc meant a much better chance of getting luggage stowed away.

Now living in Wigan and travelling to London a lot with work, I'll *still* occasionally travel to Piccadilly to make a cost saving and for the luggage convenience.

I'll be honest, I go via Manchester from Preston sometimes for the same reasons, but I don't think it's a solid reason for that service pattern per-se, can always change at Salford Crescent or Wigan.
 

Old Yard Dog

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Wasn't one of the main reasons for building the Ordsall curve to connect Rochdale, Halifax and Bradford to Piccadilly and Manchester Airport? That is now becoming less and less likely as TPE, Southport and Chester have nabbed all of the spare paths through Deansgate towards Piccadilly and the airport. Looks like Northern Rail is way down the pecking order.
 

Mogster

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If you can't find Deansgate or the Arndale from Victoria, then you probably shouldn't be out on your own.

Manchester has really good signage, maps and of course use your phone/ask people... honestly, people are so helpless.

Especially given the rise of Spinningfields and that area (for jobs but also dining etc) - Victoria is a much better fit. It's just that perceptions need to change, which takes time. Piccadilly is better for the gay village, NQ (arguably, it stretches between them) and Piccadilly Gardens/Chinatown area - but not for the main shopping really.

I agree Salford Central and Victoria are well placed for Crown Square, the financial district, shops and Exchange Square entertainments.

Piccadilly/Oxford Road/Deansgate however are much closer to the Universities and the central Manchester healthcare campus. The Bridgewater Hall, Palace Theatre and Manchester Central Arena are in that part of town also. There’s a huge new retail, residential, entertainment development happening on the old BBC Oxford Road site. Obviously there’s the students but all of these are major employers also.
 

Mogster

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Wasn't one of the main reasons for building the Ordsall curve to connect Rochdale, Halifax and Bradford to Piccadilly and Manchester Airport? That is now becoming less and less likely as TPE, Southport and Chester have nabbed all of the spare paths through Deansgate towards Piccadilly and the airport. Looks like Northern Rail is way down the pecking order.

The problem is the Ordsall Chord works were never finished. The accompanying and (more?) vital Oxford Road improvements and Piccadilly 15&16 although “shovel ready” have been with the DfT for 4 years. The Castlefield corridor has been in total chaos ever since the Chord bride opened...
 

cle

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I agree Salford Central and Victoria are well placed for Crown Square, the financial district, shops and Exchange Square entertainments.

Piccadilly/Oxford Road/Deansgate however are much closer to the Universities and the central Manchester healthcare campus. The Bridgewater Hall, Palace Theatre and Manchester Central Arena are in that part of town also. There’s a huge new retail, residential, entertainment development happening on the old BBC Oxford Road site. Obviously there’s the students but all of these are major employers also.
I deliberately didn't mention Oxford Road for those reasons - it makes the same point, that Piccadilly isn't the be-all and end-all. Although equally, no access to Oxford Road without Piccadilly too.

This does get into everywhere to everywhere, which is the plague of the northern networks around Manchester. Better to be stricter, standardize and increase frequency. People from Southport do not need access to multiple Manchester stations. Pick one, and make it work well with options to change to other places.

It's like Southern/SE and Victoria/London Bridge. Folks have had low frequencies to multiple terminals for years, with tons of flat crossing moves - time to consolidate for a more reliable network.
 

Starmill

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Not everyone is young and fit enough to walk half a mile, or to change stations with suitcases etc.
Why would you be walking though? For a start if you're travelling from Southport to Hereford as you've mentioned there's no actual need to travel via Manchester at all.

For journeys where via Manchester is a logical option, there are 2 train services per hour and a frequent Metrolink tram service linking the stations. Changing trains at Salford Crescent is also possible. I just don't see where the point about a requirement to be walking comes from.
As for changing on my way to Hereford, Crewe is a gamble if you want a seat, Chester is going the same way, which is why I much prefer to board at the start of the route i.e. Piccadilly
So, for clarity, the most compelling reason to re-write a timetable that we have come up with is that you dislike joining a train en route after it has departed from its origin station.
I still say Victoria is in the wrong place for easy access to the main retail/eating areas of the city.
It's interesting then that passengers from the Huddersfield line were outraged at the loss of their through services to Manchester Victoria, which were replaced with ones to Manchester Piccadilly instead, because they were so much less convenient for the main shopping area of the city centre.

There are lots of complaints, both here and elsewhere, that Manchester Piccadilly station is poorly located, a long walk away from the main shopping street on Market Street.
Another thing is that Virgin only operate out of Piccadilly, to the best of my knowledge.
I just don't see how this has any relevance. Next to nobody would be travelling from Southport to London via Manchester...
 
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Pyreneenguy

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The simple fact is that all lines in the densely populated North-west should be electrified. In any other European country this would have been done decades ago. Imagine what could have been achieved with all the money wasted on HS2 ( if as expected, it is cancelled or largely curtailed). Even small scale projects like the Burscough Curves could have easily been financed with the money wasted on Brexit. It would appear that deciders in the UK are happy to see millions wasted on Brexit ( for which there is absolutely no Business Case whatsoever) instead of investing in railway infrastructure that, once in place would be very useful or more likely indispensable given the projected rise in the UK population ( plus 10 million in the next 30 years ? ).
 

cle

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The simple fact is that all lines in the densely populated North-west should be electrified. In any other European country this would have been done decades ago. Imagine what could have been achieved with all the money wasted on HS2 ( if as expected, it is cancelled or largely curtailed). Even small scale projects like the Burscough Curves could have easily been financed with the money wasted on Brexit. It would appear that deciders in the UK are happy to see millions wasted on Brexit ( for which there is absolutely no Business Case whatsoever) instead of investing in railway infrastructure that, once in place would be very useful or more likely indispensable given the projected rise in the UK population ( plus 10 million in the next 30 years ? ).

I agree with everything in your post. Not weighing in on Brexit stuff - it's pretty clear to those with clarity - but the whole Northern network should indeed be electrified. Greater use need to be made of platform capacity, and increase frequency - for example double Blackburn and Clitheroe, but terminate half at Bolton, and hub there. Stockport, a combined Wigan, Warrington - could also be used more for turning.

Salford Central expansion has to happen - and possibly with some bays or terminating capacity also.

Southport, on topic - could have 4tph with 2tph ending at a rebuilt, consolidated Wigan (which is their best London/Bham/Scotland point) - Kirkby-Wigan going over to Merseyrail. The 2tph to Manchester could go to the same station.
 

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Back in 1904 our ancestors saw electrification as the future and Southport was an early beneficiary. The Tyneside loop was that year and suburban and mainline services around the country were being prepared for it. The First World War and its aftermath stopped that early momentum and we've never recovered.

Of course we've now got a mix of systems that makes full benefits harder to achieve from any of them , be they 3rd rail, overhead, diesel or hybrids. But looking at old maps for 1904 the biggest issue is probably all the railway land that has been relinquished that would now be very useful to ease congestion and provide new routes for a more integrated sytem.

We are where we are. 27 million use Piccadilly each year against 8 million at Victoria. I've never caught a train at Victoria, but have walked to that area from Piccadilly and used the bus and tram. Obviously if I worked in that area every day I'd prefer my train to go to Victoria. Metrolink between the two is best, but walking isn't too hard.
 

Mogster

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I deliberately didn't mention Oxford Road for those reasons - it makes the same point, that Piccadilly isn't the be-all and end-all. Although equally, no access to Oxford Road without Piccadilly too.

This does get into everywhere to everywhere, which is the plague of the northern networks around Manchester. Better to be stricter, standardize and increase frequency. People from Southport do not need access to multiple Manchester stations. Pick one, and make it work well with options to change to other places.

It's like Southern/SE and Victoria/London Bridge. Folks have had low frequencies to multiple terminals for years, with tons of flat crossing moves - time to consolidate for a more reliable network.

Yearly 35 million people use Manchester Oxford Road (8M) and Piccadilly. Less than 8 million use Manchester Victoria. It seems Oxford Road and Piccadilly are where people want to go.

Victoria and Piccadilly are 1.5 KM apart. It’s not the insignificant distance people on here suggest it is.
 

MetroCar4058

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Victoria and Piccadilly are 1.5 KM apart. It’s not the insignificant distance people on here suggest it is.

It is when you have a tram link around every 6 minutes and two trains an hour.

One argument would be that the tram should be included in a through ticket if a change was required.

Conversely focusing moreso on Victoria by giving it a 15 minute EMU service to the airport calling at all stations or skip stop on the Styal line whilst terminating the TPE and TfW Airport runs there. This reduces the congestion delays impacting all of the North and also gives your Pic goers a convenient connection! It would be nice for the wires at Victoria to actually get some use. Sorry, going a bit off topic.
 

Bovverboy

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It is when you have a tram link around every 6 minutes and two trains an hour

The direct tram service between Victoria and Piccadilly is every twelve minutes, and has been since Metrolink started running to Piccadilly, I believe. An additional option is to take a tram from Victoria to the Market Street stop, walk across to the Piccadilly Gardens stop, and catch another tram to
Piccadilly, but by the time you've done that you might almost as well have waited for the direct service.
 
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Yearly 35 million people use Manchester Oxford Road (8M) and Piccadilly. Less than 8 million use Manchester Victoria. It seems Oxford Road and Piccadilly are where people want to go.

Victoria and Piccadilly are 1.5 KM apart. It’s not the insignificant distance people on here suggest it is.
Victoria station railway numbers are going up to 12 million due to an increase of services and destinations. Victoria Metrolink has a ridership of nearly 6 million-the third busiest on the network after Piccadilly and Cornbrook. So that's Victoria with 18 million with oxford road at 8 and a half million.
 

edwin_m

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Victoria station railway numbers are going up to 12 million due to an increase of services and destinations. Victoria Metrolink has a ridership of nearly 6 million-the third busiest on the network after Piccadilly and Cornbrook. So that's Victoria with 18 million with oxford road at 8 and a half million.
However some of the 6 million will be double counting some of the 12 million, as they change between train and tram. If you include the tram figures for Victoria you must do the same for Piccadilly.
 
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However some of the 6 million will be double counting some of the 12 million, as they change between train and tram. If you include the tram figures for Victoria you must do the same for Piccadilly.
Piccadilly is way out in front with both rail and Metrolink. It is oxford road I was referring to, Which doesn't see the numbers that Victoria gets. Metrolink of course has interchange between trams and trains but I don't know if they are included in the station counts, Even if they were I doubt half of Metrolink users would changing for trains at Victoria.
 

Staffordian

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Piccadilly is way out in front with both rail and Metrolink. It is oxford road I was referring to, Which doesn't see the numbers that Victoria gets. Metrolink of course has interchange between trams and trains but I don't know if they are included in the station counts, Even if they were I doubt half of Metrolink users would changing for trains at Victoria.
But in 2017-18, Oxford Road DID get similar numbers to Victoria. You suggest that Victoria’s numbers have since increased by 50%, presumably because of the revised TPE service pattern, but for all we know, Oxford Road’s numbers have gone up too for the same reason. We won’t know for certain until the 2018-19 station usage figures are published by ORR in December. I’m also not sure that it’s reasonable to add in the Metrolink figures to inflate the Victoria total. It WOULD be if Oxford Road was on Metrolink - but as it isn’t the numbers aren’t comparable. Perhaps we should add in the a Metrolink usage for St Peters Square to the Oxford Road total as the nearest tram stop serving the same area ?
In any case, the station usage figures largely represent the number of departures serving a station, rather than the attractiveness of its location, so it’s not at all clear how to interpret the figures.
 

Mogster

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Oxford Road’s usage is high saying it’s so close to Piccadilly. It demonstrates the demand for access to South Manchester and the Oxford Road corridor.

It remains to be seen how routing TPE services via Victoria will affect Victoria’s usage. Some of those do call at both via the Chord though.
 

Bletchleyite

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Oxford Road’s usage is high saying it’s so close to Piccadilly. It demonstrates the demand for access to South Manchester and the Oxford Road corridor.

There will be 3 key reasons for that. First of all P13/14 is miles away from the rest of it. Secondly P13/14 is a nasty experience. Oxford Road, while not having a dedicated facility, also has excellent interchange onto Oxford Road buses.
 

Mogster

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There will be 3 key reasons for that. First of all P13/14 is miles away from the rest of it. Secondly P13/14 is a nasty experience. Oxford Road, while not having a dedicated facility, also has excellent interchange onto Oxford Road buses.

Agree.

Oxford Road is perfectly placed for boarding the almost constant stream of buses going South.

Even getting from Piccadilly 13&14 to the outside is a hike.
 
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