• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Government takes ownership of Class 365 fleet

Status
Not open for further replies.

modernrail

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2015
Messages
1,044
No this was a fairly unique contract just pre-privatisation with terms that doesn't apply to most other stock contracts (i.e. that purchased by ROSCOs for TOCs). The only other contracts with similar porvisions are IET 800/801, Thameslink 700, all new build London Overground EMUs (378s/710s) and Scotrail 385s
It is almost like the Government has recently realised that the railway continuing to pay for what should be fully written down trains a la most of the Northern fleet for the last 15 years is a little bit silly.

It is just a shame the same people haven't been to driving a harder bargain school (IET) or interior design school (all of them).
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

dubscottie

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2010
Messages
916
If I remember correctly, the units were owned by a bank. BR got a concession to spend ££ on leasing stock rather that buying it.

At privatisation, privately owned units (a couple of pacers in South Wales owned by local councils, Strathclyde 156s, WYPTE 143 centre cars & 321s, and the 365s) were to be managed by a leasing company on behalf of the owners (councils, PTEs and banks). Not 100% sure about the WYPTE 155 & 158s. They may have been the same.

It made sense at the time so all a TOCs units were treated the same.

Most ended up selling the stock to the leasing companies and I presume Eversholt must have bought the 365 from the bank at some point.
 
Last edited:
Joined
24 Jun 2014
Messages
432
Location
Derby
If I remember correctly, the units were owned by a bank. BR got a concession to spend ££ on leasing stock rather that buying it.

This gives the wrong emphasis.

The procurement of the class 365s started as a result of a government instruction. I think it was during the time Roger Freeman was the Minister of Transport responsible for railways, and BR was told that it had to lease trains which had a capital value of £150m; moreover, the selected supplier of the trains had to arrange the necessary finance and also be responsible for their maintenance, thereby transferring risk from the state to the private sector.

If I remember correctly, there was some sort of internal bidding process in BR to determine which potential procurement exercises would be taken forward; this resulted in class 365s for NSE and IC225s for the WCML being selected. We are, of course, taking about events over 25 years ago, and I'm pretty sure that there was some sort of internal competition, but only these two types of trains were taken forward as procurement exercises.

This was, of course, an unusual procurement exercise in that an ITT would usually be issued for a certain number of trains; however, as this was based around a sum of money, the exercise was to determine how many trains could be procured for that capital value. Therefore, although BR's ITT was similar to its normal format with the two key documents being a draft sale and purchase agreement and a procurement spec, it included an invitation to the two potential suppliers to meet with BR and agree to undertake much of the work usually undertaken post-tender on a confidential pre-tender basis; ABB agreed to this, but GEC-ALSTOM did not.

Over the tender preparation period, BR's Project Engineer and Procurement Project Manager for the class 365s worked with ABB, and by the time that the tender had to be submitted the specification for the class 365s had been agreed, as had the terms and conditions of contract for the supply of the trains; all that was unknown was how many 365s ABB could supply to BR for a capital value of £150m, and in accordance with the specification and Ts&Cs agreed. So when the tender was opened, out popped the magic number 41 x 4-car sets.

By contrast, GEC-ALSTOM said they were prepared to supply a certain number of trains (can't remember how many), and declared the specification for the trains and the Ts&Cs under which they were prepared to supply them.

This was just the start of many hours of work to establish train lease and maintenance agreements, and to novate certain rights and obligations from BR to the financier; BR had to make great use of outside lawyers over this period, as it was an area over which it had no significant knowledge. The BRB Director of Funds had a Leasing Manager with the necessary skills to establish "straight-forward" leases, but ones which transferred all risk to third-parties were completely new to it. There's probably some information about this leasing exercise in the National Archives, and the financing model adopted included a bank in the Cayman Islands and another in France, the latter to take advantage of the French tax regime which treated investment allowances differently to here in the UK (if I remember correctly).

One interesting element of the procurement contract related to the warranty; as the 365s were being leased from the manufacturer and he was also responsible for their maintenance, the warranty didn't start until the lease ended and BR became responsible for the train's maintenance. I guess this obligation will have been "lost" somewhere along the way; if it hasn't, I guess the warranty started at the time ownership passed to the government, as successor to BR!

The procurement of the class 365s by this lease wasn't BR's preferred method, and it wasn't the cheapest option available to it; at one time, the question was asked of the Board member responsible for finance if it was necessary to go ahead with the procurement exercise, and the answer was a most emphatic "yes" !
 

dubscottie

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2010
Messages
916
As I said.. I cant remember the details. I pluck random magazines from the loft to read in the loo. so was going by what was printed at the time.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,644
Location
Mold, Clwyd
I seem to remember the number of IC225s that GEC-Alsthom offered for the funding available was 9 (nine).
I don't think BR Intercity thought that a mini-fleet of just 9 new but different trains on the 1990s WCML made a lot of sense.
Had that option been taken up, it would be interesting to know what effect that had on Virgin's eventual complete replacement of BR-era trains.
The 41-train class 365 offer from ABB made a lot more sense for BR, though they do seem a bit odd-ball now.
The outlook for Networker-type trains generally, except the Turbos, seems bleak.
The new South Eastern franchise award would have clarified things, but we will have to wait for that now.
 
Last edited:

ScotGG

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2013
Messages
1,374
The way SE is going nother decade of 465 networkers could happen.

SE networkers are often dire inside. Even the "refurbed" ones are falling apart after a year.
 

Shug

Member
Joined
23 May 2017
Messages
44
I’ve heard rumours that the 365’s are going back to the south east, anyone else heard that?
 

Terry Tait

Member
Joined
31 Jul 2019
Messages
196
I would welcome the 365s back to Kent, I remember an enjoyable fast run on one from Maidstone to London the last time we had them.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,843
And why could that be? A lack of spare units, and serving urban areas with severe deprivation & crime rates?

Lack of spare units, "dodgy" locals, a train operator doing the bare minimum...

After all there's no reason why they should otherwise be in far worse condition than say the Chiltern 165s
 

ScotGG

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2013
Messages
1,374
And why could that be? A lack of spare units, and serving urban areas with severe deprivation & crime rates?

It's not graffiti it's embedded filth and years of not deep cleaning them plus the cheapest, most basic refurb to meet 2020 rules as was possible. As a daily traveler in the so called dogy areas I've seen less antisocial behaviour than in West London and up north where I lived and commuted.

It's a complete lack of forward planning due to constant short term extensions from the DfT at fault. Oh, and even if it is antisocial behaviour maybe leaving most stations open on a DOO service isn't that smart.

However, blaming the area for neglected trains is a tired trope. Trains get no worse treatment than many areas but it lacks any sort of investment or maintanace beyond very bare minimum.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,631
Location
Redcar
Surely that could only be the ones that were orignally DV?

They're all fitted for but not with 3rd rail equipment aren't they? I.e. They're dual voltage units but just not currently carrying the necessary equipment (like a certain sub-class of 350 running around with WMT).
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,382
I suspect the plan (if there is one) is that they will see a number of short term assignments on a rolling basis to partly fill gaps before new stock arrives. (similar to Scotrail)
The problem at SE is there is no where to store or maintain them.
 

Geeves

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2009
Messages
1,929
Location
Rochdale
DfT Rail ready and waiting! Seen earlier today at Crewe. Would make sense to get some more wires up!

 

DannyMich2018

Member
Joined
19 Dec 2018
Messages
734
Wonder if they could be cleared to run on the Southern (Brighton area, 3rd Rail of course) and replace the 40+ year old Class 313s?
 

modernrail

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2015
Messages
1,044
Lack of spare units, "dodgy" locals, a train operator doing the bare minimum...

After all there's no reason why they should otherwise be in far worse condition than say the Chiltern 165s
I use these units regularly and don't see the problem. The cleaning regime could be a bit better, especially dealing with bad smells, but the standard of the train is far superior to many in Northern land. I would probably even take one over a 331 as they feel more spacious and I have never really cooked on one despite the lack of AC. Northern have really stuffed up with their interior design of the new units.

It might just be my route is not too bad compared to others but I would have thought Victoria to Orpington is fairly typical?
 

modernrail

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2015
Messages
1,044
This is probably a very silly idea indeed for a host of technical reasons, so much so that I have mentally already picked up my coat..but...
Now that stadler have a certified power pack running around, are there any classes of soon to be redundant EMU's that could work relatively easily with a power pack of this type and could this conversion be easier than the ever delayed 319 to 769?
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
13,095
I believe a DC wiring loom was kept at Hornsey as an example in case the 365s ever needed to run again on DC lines but it was ‘lost’ during a depot clear out during FCC days. Probably at he same time as the floppy discs for the original PIS system.

Never say never but I suspect this means that the 365s are effectively AC only.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,843
I use these units regularly and don't see the problem. The cleaning regime could be a bit better, especially dealing with bad smells, but the standard of the train is far superior to many in Northern land. I would probably even take one over a 331 as they feel more spacious and I have never really cooked on one despite the lack of AC. Northern have really stuffed up with their interior design of the new units.

It might just be my route is not too bad compared to others but I would have thought Victoria to Orpington is fairly typical?

I wasn't criticising the trains, but rather the condition they are in when compared to the older 455s on Southern or SWR routes. The bubbling floor, the steamed up windows etc
 

evergreenadam

Member
Joined
23 Nov 2013
Messages
266
They would be useful right now providing extra capacity on the South Western Main Line after a terrible weekend of travel disruption, overcrowding and short formations. What a shame that the DC capacity has been lost and that the government did not take better care of its property when leased out to FCC.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,747
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
They would be useful right now providing extra capacity on the South Western Main Line after a terrible weekend of travel disruption, overcrowding and short formations. What a shame that the DC capacity has been lost and that the government did not take better care of its property when leased out to FCC.

The DC capability was reportedly (*) lost when they were transferred in the early/mid 2000s, which was from SET to WAGN.

(* I say reportedly as it's never really been officially confirmed how viable or unviable it is to restore - certainly some PDFs from Eversholt marketed the trains as "AC and DC capable". Depends on the definition of capable perhaps!)
 

aleggatta

Member
Joined
28 Sep 2015
Messages
544
I'm sure, if someone wants to make DC mode operational, it can be made operational. It might not be as easy as if original wiring looks still existed, but if the electrical schematics still exist (highly likely) then it would be a viable option.

As a side note, does anyone know the similarities/differences between 365's and 465's in relation to traction control specifically (my thinking that said 'missing' wiring loom might be salvagable from a 465?)
 

millemille

Member
Joined
28 Jul 2011
Messages
353
I'm sure, if someone wants to make DC mode operational, it can be made operational. It might not be as easy as if original wiring looks still existed, but if the electrical schematics still exist (highly likely) then it would be a viable option.

As a side note, does anyone know the similarities/differences between 365's and 465's in relation to traction control specifically (my thinking that said 'missing' wiring loom might be salvagable from a 465?)

I was the Fleet Support Engineer for HSBC on the 365 fleet for 8 years, supporting operation and maintenance of the fleet at Ramsgate and Hornsey, and was on the project team for the migration of the LSER units to WAGN.

All DC current collection equipment (shoe beams, cables, arc shields, fuse boxes etc) were removed during conversion at Doncaster works. One set were retained by Bombardier for possible pattern use at some point in the future but they were lost at Crewe works during the closure. The rest went in the skip. This was done as it was recognised at the time that the odds of 365's ever going back to DC operation were extremely long.

However, there are more significant issues with returning 365's to DC operation than just the missing current collection equipment. Just before the 16 units left Ramsgate it was found that the High Speed Circuit Breaker operation timings were out of spec and non-compliant with safety case requirements. Believed to be an age related issue, it was not closed out before the units left DC land and would prevent their return to DC operation.

There's also the small matter of many of the units having had their 50Hz monitors (known as Ansaldo's) removed and used on GEC traction equipped 465's. Unless something has changed since my last involvement then these are obsolete and no longer available, so that poses problems in its own right.

There is no "wiring loom" missing.

Operationally, 365's are not compatible with 465's except for recovery purposes. Auto couplers are wired slightly differently so train lines don't match and require the coupler switch be put in the "other" position, which means that some key train functions for normal operation don't work. But the bigger problem is that 365's are geared differently to 465's; 365's achieve a higher top speed by being higher geared, when compared to 465's, which means they don't accelerate as fast. If I remember correctly, 365's average 0.88ms2 and 465's average 1ms2. So coupling them together causes all kinds of issues.

Southeastern don't want 365's. Why would they want a small sub fleet that's not operationally compatible with any other stock they've got and that would require a whole new maintenance and material provision?
 

millemille

Member
Joined
28 Jul 2011
Messages
353
Slightly off topic but seeing that front end how hard and long is a cab swap on the units?

It's a trip to a heavy repair workshop, Crewe in the old days and Wolverton these days, and many months work. I've been a project engineer on several Networker front end repairs and the cab composite moulding isn't, like some designs, intended to be a line replaceable unit.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top