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Speed on entrance and exit from termini
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Most companies would have a general driving policy of not more than 15mph entering a terminal platform, irrespective of the published (in the sectional appendix table A) permissible speed. Some stations have 15mph or lower permissible speeds anyway, eg Southport which is 10mph. Terminal platforms have TPWS equipment designed to reduce the risk of buffer-stop collisions, which mandates a low speed when passing over the equipment. The TPWS loops are usually positioned at approx 55m from the buffer stop.
Perhaps someone could explain better than I can how ATP and ERTMS function when a train approaches block ends?
With respect to departing a terminal platform, the permissible speed is as anywhere else, determined by signalling and infrastructure constraints.
Perhaps someone could explain better than I can how ATP and ERTMS function when a train approaches block ends?
With respect to departing a terminal platform, the permissible speed is as anywhere else, determined by signalling and infrastructure constraints.
By coincidence I have just been Wigan to Southport on a Pacer. The screaming flange/rail contact around the curves at Meols Cop and on the long tortuous walking-speed approach to Southport itself make me think the locals will be glad to see the new bogied rolling stock on the line when it arrives (2 DMUs and a gaggle of trainee drivers in the carriage sidings west of Wallgate on Wednesday, so hopefully it won't be long now.)
coppercapped
Established Member
As Llama mentioned the Sectional Appendix, I thought a link to National Rail's web site would be useful. You can find it here, then scroll down to the heading 'Sectional Appendix pdf copies' and download what you need. All the terminal stations are there... 
I would suggest that entry speed depends on the circumstance. The SA for the Western shows entry and exit speeds at Paddington of 40mph for Platforms 1 to 9 and 25mph for 10 to 14. Trains do enter the the curve of the lower numbered platforms quite smartly, I would suggest at speeds significantly higher than the 15mph mentioned by Llama, but not as high as 40mph as they have to brake to a stop...!
However trains do reach the limit when leaving as the line limit rises to 50mph as early as milepost 1 and 100mph for multiple units near milepost 2.
I would suggest that entry speed depends on the circumstance. The SA for the Western shows entry and exit speeds at Paddington of 40mph for Platforms 1 to 9 and 25mph for 10 to 14. Trains do enter the the curve of the lower numbered platforms quite smartly, I would suggest at speeds significantly higher than the 15mph mentioned by Llama, but not as high as 40mph as they have to brake to a stop...!
However trains do reach the limit when leaving as the line limit rises to 50mph as early as milepost 1 and 100mph for multiple units near milepost 2.
dk1
Veteran Member
One of the instructions for new drivers in recent years has been 15mph at the ramp. I find it painfully slow so personally don't bother & never have.
dk1
Veteran Member
Possibly. Thought they told drivers to dawdle after single yellows too or was that EMs?. Must like failing PPM
I have heard that some TOCs tell drivers to approach normal platform ramps at 25mph, and slow down from there if calling at the station. I wonder if that's the same at termini for those TOCs? I think Greater Anglia do the 25mph ramp thing.
London Paddington station is known for having a 40mph speed limit when leaving the station, is this the same for approaching? If so, why is Paddington one of the only stations in the country to have such a high speed limit on the approach to a terminus?
Thanks,
-Peter
London Paddington station is known for having a 40mph speed limit when leaving the station, is this the same for approaching? If so, why is Paddington one of the only stations in the country to have such a high speed limit on the approach to a terminus?
Thanks,
-Peter
coppercapped
Established Member
When the layout was changed in 1990/1 (?) the whole set up was re-jigged for higher speeds as, at the time, journey time reduction was seen to be important. This included sets of 90mph turnouts at Ladbroke Grove where the four tracks to the west morphed into the six track approach. At the time traffic density was nothing like as dense as it is now so trains really could get a move on.
The route alignment on the approach to Paddington is excellent, it's only gently curved from Friars Junction/Old Oak Common inwards (Thanks, Isambard!) so there are no geographical or topological reasons for speed restrictions.
Then came running brake tests and the Ladbroke Grove accident: speed limits, three aspect signals instead of four near the station, the Ladbroke Grove turnouts are now 50mph and so on. All of which means that rather than 100mph being allowed westbound from Royal Oak (essentially from the end of the Paddington platforms) multiple units are now only permitted 100mph (85 mph for other trains) from near milepost 2 at Ladbroke Grove. 125mph is now allowed about 4 1/2 miles out at Acton Yard.
So the days of the 22/23 minute HST runs to Reading came to an end...
...and as far as I know nobody has hit the buffer stops at Paddington due to excessive speed. ('Bulwark' fell over on the approach - but that was in 1983 on the earlier layout).
They have returned with IEP taking a scheduled 25 minute run and arriving 2 / 3 early (on occasions) though.
coppercapped
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hooverboy
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seems very conservative.
10mph in black ice type conditions i could understand...or perhaps a loco hauled with fully loaded long drag behind them which would affect braking performance.
surely not beyond the bounds of possibility to allow for a bit of driver interpretation of environmental/load factors.
sure,at a terminus you'd want to come to a stop 5-10m before you hit the buffers!
philthetube
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London underground is 10 mph into termini, controlled by trainstops, (policemen) left to drivers to decide at other stations.
Didn't Gerry Fiennes write about how impressed he was by the LT&S steam-worked commuter trains maximising capacity by running smartly into all their stations and stopping sharply? Slow cautious approaches can't do anything to reduce dwell-times. I suppose they cover the asses of non-railway newly-arrived managements though...
Esker-pades
Established Member
To be boring, I'll point out that the lack of improvement in journey times is down to the number of trains and consequent lack of capacity there is now compared to 20 years ago.
The approach to Southport is particularly slow, whether or not you are on a Pacer. I believe it's 20 mph all the way from Meols Cop. Is this just because of curvature, or old rails and sleepers/ground conditions? Any plans to renew the layout when Pacers have gone? I imagine it's a low priority.
AutoKratz
Member
On the Tyne and Wear Metro it’s station specific -
St James is 5kmh
South Hylton is 5kmh
South Shields is 10kmh
Airport is 15kmh
Interestingly the trackside speed signs read 5kmh higher than these as drivers are told to do 5kmh less so they don’t activate the speed trainstop magnets.
St James is 5kmh
South Hylton is 5kmh
South Shields is 10kmh
Airport is 15kmh
Interestingly the trackside speed signs read 5kmh higher than these as drivers are told to do 5kmh less so they don’t activate the speed trainstop magnets.
Mintona
Established Member
Paddington platforms 1-4 have a 20mph restriction these days for IETs. 5-9 remain 40mph and 10-14 25mph as previously mentioned.
Definitely one of the faster approaches when it comes to buffer stops. It’s still usual to hit platforms 5, 8 and 9 at 25-30mph. Much faster though and you’ll have the ATP safety system stopping you anyway.
Definitely one of the faster approaches when it comes to buffer stops. It’s still usual to hit platforms 5, 8 and 9 at 25-30mph. Much faster though and you’ll have the ATP safety system stopping you anyway.
driver9000
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15mph into and out of the platforms.
Leaving Manchester Airport platform 3 is 40mph from the off, so you can at least get a little bit of a wriggle on depending what you are driving. All the other platforms have a crossover / lower speed pointwork before reaching the Down Airport.
Dstock7080
Established Member
Central, Northern, Jubilee, Victoria Lines and Hammersmith H&C ?
(also Baker St MET from next weekend)
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I understand that crashes are a very bad thing, but this seems another instance of hobbling the railways when they are already far safer than the alternatives.
It has a massive effect on passenger perception imo. Once a train is going fast the degree of fast isn’t hugely apparent to a normal passenger, but slow really stands out. They think they are just pulling into the station, get themselves ready to disembark.....and then wait...and wait....as the train dawdles the last miles and crawls into the platform.
It’s really slow just at the point the passenger is least patient, queued in the vestibule, and it’s the last bit of the experience so sticks in the memory.
It has a massive effect on passenger perception imo. Once a train is going fast the degree of fast isn’t hugely apparent to a normal passenger, but slow really stands out. They think they are just pulling into the station, get themselves ready to disembark.....and then wait...and wait....as the train dawdles the last miles and crawls into the platform.
It’s really slow just at the point the passenger is least patient, queued in the vestibule, and it’s the last bit of the experience so sticks in the memory.
On numerous occasions I've stopped in the station throats of Paddington; Kings Cross; and Euston - mostly due to running a minute or two early, and thus having to either wait for the platform to become available or to allow a departing service to clear the route forward into the platform.
If trains arrived quicker (in succession / time) at certain stations, they wouldn't be able to be accommodated due to having full platforms. By slowing things down on the approaches there is more time to turn the previous arrivals around and get them departed before the next wave of arrivals.
Additionally, if there is a red aspect (signal) at the last gantry before the terminus - for conflicting departures for example - they will have to start slowing on the approach to the Double Yellow (about 1.5 miles out in the case of paddington). If there is a lot of point work to negotiate in the throat, this could be another reason to be going slowly - passengers standing in the vestibules are more easily thrown about than those in seats.
However if all trains ran more quickly into platforms the headways would stay the same. They wouldn't arrive in any quicker succession, in fact I think there would be a slight compression of trains as they slowed down, like there is a spacing out (physically) of cars as a queue speeds up at the end of a speed restriction.
I agree with Meerkat. "Over-cautious" protects management asses and cuts line capacity rather than guarantees safety.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Lowestoft used to/may still be, 60mph straight out of some of the platforms I believe.
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