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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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whhistle

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InTheEastMids said:
How do you define 'success'? I think we can agree that Hull Trains Cl180 current performance is not close to the accepted definition of successful
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Think like a customer and from a marketing point of view though.
New trains marketing = we're investing money in getting rid of old trains.
Customer = (considering they won't know the unreliability of those particular units) oo, these new trains are nice.

EMR suggested the trains would be with them for 6 months or so before entering service. That's at least 2 months worth of attention, relivering should take a day and staff training no more than a couple of months. Still leaves plenty of time to refresh and renew them. I could be wishing here, but if Grand Central can do it...



krus_aragon said:
if a franchise bidder makes a bit (sic) for stock currently used by another franchise, that bidder would have to demonstrate that other suitable stock is / will be available to replace them.
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An excellent point.

Which makes me think there may be a bit more oomph to swap 158s for 170s from Scotrail.
I am likely to be wrong but there's fair few of pros for this:
An easy way to have loads of 170s available fairly soon.
Allows fleet harmonisation.
Both Abellio companies - less paperwork?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Jozhua said:
Do you dislocate your legs and fold them upwards?

You've got to let us know your trick.
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Being quite tall I have a sort of a trick involving crossing my legs at just above ankle level and putting my feet under my own seat and knees down to the bottom of or below (in some cases) the seat in front. It isn't particularly comfortable but does allow me to fit in tight plane seats even if the seat in front is reclined.

The pitch on 153s is so bad I can't even do that.
 
hooverboy

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Baxenden Bank said:
Pleased to see that I will be getting trains with more capacity 'soon' on Derby-Crewe. But are the trains any good?

My main gripe with the 153's is the absolute lack of legroom. Some being worse than others. Are the seats on current EMR, or future ex-Anglia 156's, better spaced? On the 153's I can ONLY sit in the table seats, and only then if there is no-one opposite. Otherwise it's stand all the way or squash in crooked taking up a double seat and later alight with a painful back and knees. It really does deter me from traveling on the route except when absolutely essential.

I traveled on Monday. Still a single 153, still had EMT branding, no free cakes or other new franchise freebies!
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the 156's are a bit more comfortable than a 153, it's an adequate increase and is certainly a very positive move- a 158 diagram would have probably had the "wow" factor, but 156 will still do very nicely thankyou.

going 2 carriages on derby-crewe will be a godsend. the single car is usually full to bursting!
 
hooverboy

hooverboy

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whhistle said:
Okay. You win.

Those are a red herring to the stock plans and discounted in nearly all of this discussion. You ain't gonna see hydrogen trains running to London!

Sorry I don't have access to the internal documents that detailed EMRs plans anymore.
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hydrogen trial will most likely will be cleethorpes/barton line as there are hydrogen production and storage facilities nearby.

minimal impact if it goes pear shaped,and ticks the franchise box of TRIAL, not necessarily use in anger.
 
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Class83

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whhistle said:
Which makes me think there may be a bit more oomph to swap 158s for 170s from Scotrail.
I am likely to be wrong but there's fair few of pros for this:
An easy way to have loads of 170s available fairly soon.
Allows fleet harmonisation.
Both Abellio companies - less paperwork?
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Scotrail don't have any spare 170s, and the ones they do have are needed for commuter services, they have more than enough 156/8s for the North Highland, West Highland and Southwest lines which they are suited to. Loading commuters into a 158 at Haymarket is not an efficient use of valuable platform space.
 
43096

43096

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MML said:
Much song and dance was made in the local media at the launch of a new half hourly Airport Express non-stop service between St Pancras and Luton Airport Parkway.
In reality this will just be the first stop on the London - Corby EMR Electric service utilising cascaded Class 360 EMU stock. But fair play to the propaganda department for hoodwinking the local media.
1. I estimate 7 trains will be required to fulfill the proposed timetable. Anybody able to confirm ?
2. Given there are 21 class 360 units available from GA, does this mean the standard formation will be 4, 8 or 12 car ?
3. First class accommodation is 2+2 seating. But much of the standard class is 2+3 seating more suited to commuter routes with little space provided for luggage.
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Six sets required for the half-hourly Corby by my reckoning. So 18 360s needed for all 12-car sets, which leaves three maintenance spares.
 
43074

43074

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whhistle said:
I do wish people would cite sources...

I would like to know:

1) Where have Southern said they're looking to replace their 171s?
Reasons not to talk about this:
  • I haven't seen anything, anywhere, apart form an odd post here suggesting Southern are looking to get rid of their 171s.
  • At this late stage in their franchise, why would they spend money on replacing (training, logistics of swapping units) stock?
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It isn't really for Southern to say anything as they're Porterbrook units; if their lease expires in September 2021 and another operator makes an offer to continue running them after that date why wouldn't you accept it if the terms were favourable? Porterbrook don't really care which of their assets run where, as long as they generate revenue for them and are looked after. Southern aren't looking to get rid of the units, but there's a precedent for units being poached by another operator (see Chiltern/TPE in 2016) so ultimately they have very little say in the matter.

All the indications seem to be that GTR's tenure will be extended to 2023 so I guess we'll find out when the terms of the extension are agreed.
 
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swt_passenger

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43074 said:
It isn't really for Southern to say anything as they're Porterbrook units; if their lease expires in September 2021 and another operator makes an offer to continue running them after that date why wouldn't you accept it if the terms were favourable? Porterbrook don't really care which of their assets run where, as long as they generate revenue for them and are looked after. Southern aren't looking to get rid of the units, but there's a precedent for units being poached by another operator (see Chiltern/TPE in 2016) so ultimately they have very little say in the matter.

All the indications seem to be that GTR's tenure will be extended to 2023 so I guess we'll find out when the terms of the extension are agreed.
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The “TPE to Chiltern” 170 move caused a change to subsequent franchise ITTs though. EMR would now have to show DfT that there was a readily available suitable alternative for Southern. I’m unconvinced that SN would accept some alternative refitted elderly EMUs...
 
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Roast Veg

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hooverboy said:
hydrogen trial will most likely will be cleethorpes/barton line as there are hydrogen production and storage facilities nearby.

minimal impact if it goes pear shaped,and ticks the franchise box of TRIAL, not necessarily use in anger.
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There was a suggestion that the hydrogen trial would be on the MML, though it was expected to be the Nottingham to Leicester slows. This may have changed since.
 
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clagmonster

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hooverboy said:
hydrogen trial will most likely will be cleethorpes/barton line as there are hydrogen production and storage facilities nearby.

minimal impact if it goes pear shaped,and ticks the franchise box of TRIAL, not necessarily use in anger.
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The Barton Line transfer to EMR is currently under review by the DfT. Said review is expected to take a year with the transfer taking place in December 2020 if indeed it does take place. Thus not necessarily a safe bet for the hydrogen trial. Unit lengths could well also be an issue on the Barton Line if the trial units are converted EMUs.

The often mooted suggestion of Nottingham to Leicester would seem to make sense if the units are converted at Brush.
 
RealTrains07

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Would anyone mind explaining to me how EMR plan to replace all their HSTs with 180s and 222s?

How many 6 car and how many 8 car HSTs are their?

Cause an 5 car 180 in exchange for an 8 car HST doesn’t seem good?

I know this has probably been covered before but just wondering
 
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whhistle

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RealTrains07 said:
Would anyone mind explaining to me how EMR plan to replace all their HSTs with 180s and 222s?

How many 6 car and how many 8 car HSTs are their?

Cause an 5 car 180 in exchange for an 8 car HST doesn’t seem good?

I know this has probably been covered before but just wondering
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The 5-car 180s will replace the shorter (Angel / ex-Grand Central) HST sets as these are fairly different from the rest of the (8-coach HST) fleet.

When the 360s replace 222s on the Corby route, that will release those units to cover the other HSTs.

Not sure of the math but it's likely they will use whatever on whatever service once the HSTs have gone from the Nottingham route.
It'll be interesting to see how the Leeds / Sheffield / Nottingham / Leicester service goes as that's usually pretty busy.
 
Nym

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RealTrains07 said:
Would anyone mind explaining to me how EMR plan to replace all their HSTs with 180s and 222s?

How many 6 car and how many 8 car HSTs are their?

Cause an 5 car 180 in exchange for an 8 car HST doesn’t seem good?

I know this has probably been covered before but just wondering
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Aparently;

Better scheduling and not needing to deal with Corby will help.

I would expect though that HSTs will be staying for a very short while.
 
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hwl

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RealTrains07 said:
Would anyone mind explaining to me how EMR plan to replace all their HSTs with 180s and 222s?

How many 6 car and how many 8 car HSTs are their?

Cause an 5 car 180 in exchange for an 8 car HST doesn’t seem good?

I know this has probably been covered before but just wondering
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Did they say they would be "replacing all" or carefully prefix it with "start replacing all".

Use Nym's rule of reading everything with a sceptical mind! The relevant quotes to carefully re-read can be found in the first 7 pages of this thread...

In addition to Nym's list I'd expect new timetable /stopping patterns (north of Bedford) helped by completion of Derby works and reduced lay over times of some services at their Northern Terminii.
 
yorksrob

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RealTrains07 said:
Would anyone mind explaining to me how EMR plan to replace all their HSTs with 180s and 222s?

How many 6 car and how many 8 car HSTs are their?

Cause an 5 car 180 in exchange for an 8 car HST doesn’t seem good?

I know this has probably been covered before but just wondering
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It will be an unmitigated fiasco if they do try it - in spite of many attempting to put a brave face on it.

Does anyone know if the company/DfT have dared to confirm this so called "plan" yet ?
 
RailWonderer

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Bletchleyite said:
I think 170s appear dated because the ribbon glazing is a very 1990s/early 2000s look, whereas the more basic "tube with rounded corner windows" of 158s is fairly timeless.

That said, 158s with Grammer IC3000 seating are good - these, ScotRail's and the Welsh ones.
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Interesting. I think the 170s still look very modern because of their 'one big long window' with pillar glazing and that the new Aventras with separated rounded windows makes them look dated like the 158s and Networkers. Desiros have a fitted look that makes them look modern despite the rounded windows.

360s will almost certainly need a 350 style layout, since the 3+2 for 1 hour 30 won't wash with passengers, like the 450s that go all the way to Portsmouth while many use them for the full journey length.
 
Aictos

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Nym said:
Aparently;

Better scheduling and not needing to deal with Corby will help.

I would expect though that HSTs will be staying for a very short while.
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Indeed as I understand it by removing Class 222s off Corby services by replacing them with 12 car Class 360s, Class 180s used on the existing 6 car HSTs services and reshuffling and tightening up Class 222 diagramming should be workable.

Course it be easier if:

1. Corby Electrification was already completed and in use by May 2019.

2. If Class 360s were already going though a refurbishment.

3. Class 800s were being delivered and entering service at the same rate of the ECML fleet.

But course the deadline was known over a decade ago and the industry including the DfT have done little to ensure a timely completion to ensure all trains are compliance eg the HSTs still in use on the Midland Mainline despite having seating that fails modern safety standards and slam doors.
 
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edwin_m

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clagmonster said:
As it is a trial, it will make things easier if they need to return for rectification works or running modifications.
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Indeed. Imagine how long it would take to find two units and crews (one for rescue and one for service replacement) and get them out to Barton-on-Humber!
 
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InTheEastMids

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Apologies if this has already been posted, I didn't see it in the thread.

The essence of this short piece from Rail Magazine is that EMR are still weighing up whether to keep their current HST fleet or get ex-LNER Mk3s as they come off lease, or... (See options discussed ad nauseum in previous 61 pages)

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/no-decision-yet-on-future-use-of-east-midlands-railway-hsts

Perhaps the full article has more? Either way, the inability of DfT, EMT/EMR to decide what to do since July 2017 (when it became a certainty that a large diesel fleet would be needed in 2020), even at this late stage is... Well it's not great is it.
 
Fincra5

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The problem is with giving EMR the 171's from SN, they're not a simple swap - for SN. Such a train would need to be fitted with SDO (Marshlink), able to be Dellner fitted - for Rescue - and be Bi-Mode 3rd Rail or DEMU/DMU. 2 Year's isn't all that long. I very much doubt even GTR could sell 769s to the Uckfield Line instead of the more modern 171s (with Plugs, Aircon etc).

Oh and ofcourse you'd have to change all the SN Mods, such as a Dellner, to make them work with 170s. It's a fairly unrealistic idea.
 
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MatthewRead

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Fincra5 said:
The problem is with giving EMR the 171's from SN, they're not a simple swap - for SN. Such a train would need to be fitted with SDO (Marshlink), able to be Dellner fitted - for Rescue - and be Bi-Mode 3rd Rail or DEMU/DMU. 2 Year's isn't all that long. I very much doubt even GTR could sell 769s to the Uckfield Line instead of the more modern 171s (with Plugs, Aircon etc).

Oh and ofcourse you'd have to change all the SN Mods, such as a Dellner, to make them work with 170s. It's a fairly unrealistic idea.
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The Marden Park Tunnel also has to be taken into account as it cannot take Mark 3 derived rolling stock.
 
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