Things that railways in other countries do better than in the UK

Christmas, New Year and similar rest days’ operation. It’s just like a normal sunday in most countries.

A few points where some other European countries do better than the UK:
- Integration of rail with other transport, such as having good bus, tram and metro connections at railway stations.
- Related to the above, having integrated transport planners including all forms of public transport.
- Much cheaper season tickets. Season tickets in the UK are so expensive that they have a major impact on many people's quality of life, and many people have no choice but to commute long distances because of high house prices. See this old post for some examples: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...avel-within-the-uk.127059/page-2#post-2472822
- Crush loading of trains is much less common, and not routine as in the UK.

Railcards, railcards, railcards....

Railcards available for the whole population.

Whole network railcards for the cost of an annual season.

No such benefits here - all so that the free marketeers can pretend that we have a 'commercial' railway !

yorksrob said:

No such benefits here - all so that the free marketeers can pretend that we have a 'commercial' railway !

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Isn't that a leftover from British Rail era, subsequently enshrined in the rules set out by the Rail Settlement Plan and all that? The flip side of that coin is that the UK has Advance and (Super) Off-Peak fares for a lot of journeys, not just for certain 'flagship intercity routes'.

You can go from London to Birmingham for £6.40 on Chiltern if you book in advance, a comparable journey in the Netherlands (Almelo to The Hague Central) would cost you € 25 (£ 22.90) without a railcard. Chiltern does get more expensive if you need more flexibility (or book close to traveling), the price on NS is fixed.

Possibly relevant. I have just had an email from Trenitalia regarding a booking for next month, advising me the rolling stock for my train has changed and assigning me a new seat. I can't recall ever getting something like that in the UK.

AlexNL said:

Isn't that a leftover from British Rail era, subsequently enshrined in the rules set out by the Rail Settlement Plan and all that? The flip side of that coin is that the UK has Advance and (Super) Off-Peak fares for a lot of journeys, not just for certain 'flagship intercity routes'.

You can go from London to Birmingham for £6.40 on Chiltern if you book in advance, a comparable journey in the Netherlands (Almelo to The Hague Central) would cost you € 25 (£ 22.90) without a railcard. Chiltern does get more expensive if you need more flexibility (or book close to traveling), the price on NS is fixed.

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On the contrary, BR went from having no railcards to having lots in the space of around fifteen years. Why is the lack of progress on railcards in the twenty years since BR stopped running the railway BR's fault ?

The question you should be asking is why, in the twenty years since, we have only had one new railcard introduced.

Advanced Purchase is no substitute for discounted discretionary travel when one wants it.

yorksrob said:

On the contrary, BR went from having no railcards to having lots in the space of around fifteen years. Why is the lack of progress on railcards in the twenty years since BR stopped running the railway BR's fault ?

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Ah, I did not know that

The question you should be asking is why, in the twenty years since, we have only had one new railcard introduced.

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I'd say that is due to the fragmentation of the British railway industry, combined with the "impartial retailing" policy. A TOC can't introduce a railcard which is to be accepted by other operators without their agreement, retailing systems have to support it, etc.

Here in the Netherlands, Dutch Railways (NS) are the dominant operator in the railway industry. They operate the core network and carry the majority of passengers on the Dutch railway network. However, they are not the only operator - private companies such as Arriva, Transdev and Keolis run trains as well.

Back in 2011, NS introduced a new range of railcards which would replace the existing "Voordeelurenabonnement". They did this unilaterally and without any agreement with other operators. So when the new cards were introduced, people who paid to get "40% off of train journeys" did not get this discount on an Arriva train. It took a couple of months before the new railcards were accepted by the other operators.

Imagine trying to get something like that arranged on the UK's network, with more than 20 companies running the trains. Without top-down steerage (by the DfT or RDG) it's just going to get really complicated really quickly

Advanced Purchase is no substitute for discounted discretionary travel when one wants it.

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AP is great for leisure travellers who can plan their trips in advance and aren't bound so much to peak/off-peak journeys. And you can get really great value trips on them. Germany has a system which caters to both: there are AP tickets (Sparpreis), and anytime fares (Flexpreis). Germany does not have an "off peak" ticket, unlike the UK.

Then there's the "BahnCard", a pass which gives 25% off, 50% off or 100% off of the price of a ticket. The BahnCard discount applies to saver fares as well as anytime fares, so it can be a pretty good value for money. If you have a BC25 and you book a saver fare, you get 25% off.

But if you need flexibility, you'll immediately have to buy the Flexpreis which can be considerably more expensive (it's not uncommon for a Sparpreis of € 29,90 to be found, where the Flexpreis is > € 100). There's no "middle ground", unlike the Off-peak tickets found in the UK. And while a Sparpreis can be amended (for a fee), this can not be done on the day of travel.

AlexNL said:

But if you need flexibility, you'll immediately have to buy the Flexpreis which can be considerably more expensive (it's not uncommon for a Sparpreis of € 29,90 to be found, where the Flexpreis is > € 100). There's no "middle ground", unlike the Off-peak tickets found in the UK. And while a Sparpreis can be amended (for a fee), this can not be done on the day of travel.

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But even the Flexpreis is affordable for normal people, especially when combined with a Bahncard 50. London to Manchester is £175 single for about 300 km. Berlin to Frankfurt, over 500 km, is 69 EUR with a Bahncard 50, including the use of high speed tracks for much of the journey.

AlexNL said:

Ah, I did not know that

I'd say that is due to the fragmentation of the British railway industry, combined with the "impartial retailing" policy. A TOC can't introduce a railcard which is to be accepted by other operators without their agreement, retailing systems have to support it, etc.

Here in the Netherlands, Dutch Railways (NS) are the dominant operator in the railway industry. They operate the core network and carry the majority of passengers on the Dutch railway network. However, they are not the only operator - private companies such as Arriva, Transdev and Keolis run trains as well.

Back in 2011, NS introduced a new range of railcards which would replace the existing "Voordeelurenabonnement". They did this unilaterally and without any agreement with other operators. So when the new cards were introduced, people who paid to get "40% off of train journeys" did not get this discount on an Arriva train. It took a couple of months before the new railcards were accepted by the other operators.

Imagine trying to get something like that arranged on the UK's network, with more than 20 companies running the trains. Without top-down steerage (by the DfT or RDG) it's just going to get really complicated really quickly


AP is great for leisure travellers who can plan their trips in advance and aren't bound so much to peak/off-peak journeys. And you can get really great value trips on them. Germany has a system which caters to both: there are AP tickets (Sparpreis), and anytime fares (Flexpreis). Germany does not have an "off peak" ticket, unlike the UK.

Then there's the "BahnCard", a pass which gives 25% off, 50% off or 100% off of the price of a ticket. The BahnCard discount applies to saver fares as well as anytime fares, so it can be a pretty good value for money. If you have a BC25 and you book a saver fare, you get 25% off.

But if you need flexibility, you'll immediately have to buy the Flexpreis which can be considerably more expensive (it's not uncommon for a Sparpreis of € 29,90 to be found, where the Flexpreis is > € 100). There's no "middle ground", unlike the Off-peak tickets found in the UK. And while a Sparpreis can be amended (for a fee), this can not be done on the day of travel.

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Well exactly, arguably the original privatisation/fragmentation was a mistake.

We need a Bahncard type system.

Cost of unlimited train travel per year:

Germany: 4,395 EUR
Great Britain: £20,696 (26 x 14 day all line rovers, not valid at peak times on some routes)

Bletchleyite said:

I wouldn't call them better. Cramped, small windows, no luggage space etc. The only ones that are vaguely decent are the recent DB ones. That SBB have them is a laugh, they are awful for scenic routes - tiny windows, seats narrower than a 350/2 etc.

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Certainly way less cramped, at least in Belgium, Luxemburg, and Germany, than the car I had to sit in for 6+ hours when I traveled from London to Edinburgh 2 years ago. At at least we align the seats with the windows...

JonasB said:

Maybe I was a bit vague, I meant connecting journey not necessarily by train. Here in Sweden most (but unfortunately not all) transport companies cooperate so you can buy a pretty long and complicated journey involving metro, long distance train, local train, city bus, coach, ferry etc on one ticket. I've not been able to do that in the UK.

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Ah, I see. Yes, the Germanic countries do cross-modal ticketing far better than the UK.

Seville to Cadiz : Alvina trains have an adjustable foot rest for people whose feet don’t reach floor comfortably. I wish Virgin trains had this feature.

I have had trouble using a uk debit card in ticket vending machines abroad. (And pay at pump) Dont know if uk ticket machines cope with foreign cards ok.

Hopefully someone will enlighten us!

Ken H said:

I have had trouble using a uk debit card in ticket vending machines abroad.

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How long ago and where?

Ken H said:

Dont know if uk ticket machines cope with foreign cards ok.

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A lot of American cards still don't have Chip & PIN, so those are presumably not accepted.

My double deck IC train to Brussels and back each working day seems like a good idea, so much capacity that the stairs off the platform become the bottleneck. Loco hauled and at the busy times two trains coupled together. Very long peak (P) trains in between the gaps at busy times too.

No form of peak/off peak ticketing.

Friendly staff with a uniform that gives them some respect.

My employer pays 40% of my season ticket through a government scheme to encourage public transport.

Downsides are non-existent on train catering and a star network topology generally based on Brussels. If something goes wrong there the whole country suffers.

In most countries, France being a notable exception : no need to transfer between stations in the capital cities...

I always found the Belgian uniforms a bit quaint but in a charming way - they are as Belgian as Tintin.

They couldn't be much more Belgian, even if they were dishing out Trappistenbier and chips with mayonnaise.

Not being deafened by endless weebling tannoy announcements. On the RER from Charles de Gaule to Gare de Nord a simple announcement of the station name suffices without the endless: 'This is the 15.47 train to XXXX, calling at A, B, C, D....See it, say it sorted...This is coach number - five of - eight. etc etc etc etc...'

Shimbleshanks said:

Not being deafened by endless weebling tannoy announcements. On the RER from Charles de Gaule to Gare de Nord a simple announcement of the station name suffices without the endless: 'This is the 15.47 train to XXXX, calling at A, B, C, D....See it, say it sorted...This is coach number - five of - eight. etc etc etc etc...'

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Now try SBB, where there's plenty of waffle (including VTWC-like adverts for the restaurant) and you get it in three languages too!

At least the bogs don't talk to you.

I prefer the uniformity a lot of European countries have - procedures, rules, signage, designs are similar and familiar all around the network. Manchester Piccadilly with three different TOCs all checking tickets with three different ways and levels of thoroughness always comes to mind for me of how daft I think our fragmented system can be.

radamfi said:

A lot of American cards still don't have Chip & PIN, so those are presumably not accepted.

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There are people in this country with chip and signature rather than chip and pin cards (which people have a right to have); they often work fine in both UK and overseas ticket machines, surprisingly!

MarcVD said:

In most countries, France being a notable exception : no need to transfer between stations in the capital cities...

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I don't think that's the case... Even where cities have constructed or reconstructed a new "main" station to bring more services together (eg Berlin and Vienna), there are still occasions when you'll need to switch stations. And there are plenty of other capitals - especially, but not only, in the larger countries - where there are several stations and it's quite normal to need to switch between them; I've certainly had to ... eg Rome, Madrid, Prague, Lisbon (though I've not needed to at Brussels for many years, but maybe that's because of the places beyond Brussels that I've travelled to). Budapest I've not experienced, but even long distance trains there don't all use the same station as far as I can see. And there are lots of other major cities, besides capitals, where switching stations is sometimes needed - I've had to do so in Milan, for instance, and - in France - in Lille. And what about Moscow? Belgrade? Istanbul (though not a capital)?

And I saw somewhere that Amsterdam South station is due to have more major services there, to relieve pressure on the main Amsterdam station, which - besides a pain for those travelling to the city and wanting to get to the centre - will also increase the likelihood of needing to change stations for onward journeys there, I guess.

AlbertBeale said:

I don't think that's the case... Even where cities have constructed or reconstructed a new "main" station to bring more services together (eg Berlin and Vienna), there are still occasions when you'll need to switch stations. And there are plenty of other capitals - especially, but not only, in the larger countries - where there are several stations and it's quite normal to need to switch between them; I've certainly had to ... eg Rome, Madrid, Prague, Lisbon (though I've not needed to at Brussels for many years, but maybe that's because of the places beyond Brussels that I've travelled to). Budapest I've not experienced, but even long distance trains there don't all use the same station as far as I can see. And there are lots of other major cities, besides capitals, where switching stations is sometimes needed - I've had to do so in Milan, for instance, and - in France - in Lille. And what about Moscow? Belgrade? Istanbul (though not a capital)?

And I saw somewhere that Amsterdam South station is due to have more major services there, to relieve pressure on the main Amsterdam station, which - besides a pain for those travelling to the city and wanting to get to the centre - will also increase the likelihood of needing to change stations for onward journeys there, I guess.

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Well it's hard to find things where all foreign railways are universally better than all UK railways (abroad is a big place) but I think the point is valid. There are cities where, like London, most railway connections will require a change of station. But looking at European cities on average, travellers are far less likely to need to transfer.

To take some of your examples... In Brussels, only a few obscure stations can't be reached directly from Brussels Zuid but can be reached from other Brussels stations, and even then they can be reached from Zuid with a single change (so no need to leave the railway system). In Amsterdam, very few stations can be reached from Amsterdam Zuid but not Centraal, and it's very unlikely anyone would transfer from Centraal to Zuid to catch a train - they would take a train from Centraal and change somewhere like Utrecht or Schiphol. In Berlin, most places can be reached directly from the Hauptbahnhof.

You can find examples where a change of station is needed, or faster, but in most cities the proportion of journeys requiring a passenger to leave the railway system and travel between stations is much lower than in London.

anme said:

You can find examples where a change of station is needed, or faster, but in most cities the proportion of journeys requiring a passenger to leave the railway system and travel between stations is much lower than in London.

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Like our restricted loading gauge, this is one of the penalties for us in being the first in the game: the ferrophobia that kept railways out of central London. Though I suppose a similar policy must have operated in Paris.

I have little experience of superefficient (mainly northern) European railway systems, but surely it is much easier to have such a network in a small and reasonably homogenous country like the Netherlands, Belgium or Switzerland. Germany and France seem to do some things excellently and others not very well... the poor local services in the latter must reflect the sparse population in many regions.

I have more experience of Trenitalia, and comparing it with the UK it's hard to see much difference. It's a bit more like BR in the 1950s and 60s: loco-hauled trains running at irregular (and often infrequent) intervals; last-minute platform changes are common at major stations; local trains can be modern and state-of-the-art, but equally likely to be down-at-heel and graffiti-ridden. Fares (both basic and advance) are considerably cheaper than the UK, and of course electrification is almost universal. The Freccia express trains are very similar to our West Coast and East Coast main lines (with the added advantage of a bigger loading gauge making for more comfortable interiors). Punctuality is not great, at least along the Ligurian main line through Genoa... it must be a nightmare scheduling a near-metro frequency of local trains along with assorted regional, express, Freccie, international and freight services through the city and along the coast (which in some stretches is only single track.)

One anomaly worth pointing out about France: it's odd that journeys involving crossing Paris don't include the Metro fare, whereas in our deregulated fragmented system it's easy to cross London.

radamfi said:

How long ago and where?

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Berlin. about 3 yrs ago. Chip and pinned at the ticket office at hauptbanhof OK tho.
problems with S-bahn and U bahn machines. Just used cash in the end.
Major UK clearing bank debit card.

Also in Belgium but that was 2001

Ken H said:

Berlin. about 3 yrs ago. Chip and pinned at the ticket office at hauptbanhof OK tho.
problems with S-bahn and U bahn machines. Just used cash in the end.
Major UK clearing bank debit card.

Also in Belgium but that was 2001

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I had an issue with British cards in Belgium in 2001, but not since. Re Germany I've not had an issue for years, just be aware that some of the Verkehrsverbuende don't (or didn't) accept MasterCard/Visa at all (even for purchase from a DB machine) - that may be why.

Ken H said:

Berlin. about 3 yrs ago. Chip and pinned at the ticket office at hauptbanhof OK tho.
problems with S-bahn and U bahn machines. Just used cash in the end.
Major UK clearing bank debit card.

Also in Belgium but that was 2001

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Like I said in a different thread, it always seem to be British banks.