Why are Northern allowed to cancel Sunday Services seemingly at will?

Killingworth · 26 Aug 2019

mandub said:
Exactly. How ASLEF ever agreed to the document stating drivers would work a minimum of 1 in 4 Sundays but not stating a maximum number we could be rostered to work beggars belief.

I worked in a business providing cover from 07.00-23.00 7 days a week. I know, not as onerous as working on trains. Quite a number actually preferred working weekends and Sundays were quite popular, one or two asking to work every Sunday despite no extra pay. It works if you're lucky to have a mix of people with differing life/work balances that fit with the rosters. I liked Friday evenings and usually volunteered to do all of them. The younger ones went out clubbing! I hated 07.00 starts and did very few. Saturday mornings would be very busy. Strict appliance of the roster rules would have made more than half leave!

Which is where the railway gets complicated with shift lengths, route knowledge and traction being up to date. You can't please everyone all the time, and in the situation above if we'd lost our regular Sunday people we'd have had others refusing or resigning.

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scrapy · 27 Aug 2019

DC2001 said:
Given that the Sunday timetable has fewer services than the weekday/Saturday timetable, I imagine that that drivers would work roughly 5/8 (or less) Sundays on a 5-day week or 1/2 on a 4-day week; most drivers (I imagine) would also prefer to work a Saturday & Sunday of the same weekend and then not the following weekend rather than working Saturday one weekend and Sunday the next.

There probably are some staff who find it preferable to work weekends and have their rest days in the week when everywhere is quieter and ideally this would be accommodated for.

Drivers on the West side generally have 1 in 3 Sundays as part of a weekend off, then 1 in 3 where they have been on a late shift on the Saturday and early on the Monday and 1 in 3 where they were on an early shift on the Saturday and late on the Monday.

It's been worked out that to provide the full franchise service (not the current timetable) including 2tph Wigan to Liverpool, 2tph on Atherton line, 1tph mid Cheshire and Stoke, and have appropriate spare cover (as people would be able to have annual leave on Sundays) that drivers would have to worķ 1 in every 2.5 Sundays, which is far more than the company and ASLEF reps were suggesting would happen, but there was nothing in the deal to stop this. As drivers can't work when moving from a late week to an early week, it would have meant some depots working every Sunday where they move from early to lates, plus some Sundays in long weekends (which was not specifically excluded in the document).

Although Sundays where you move from lates to earlies are technically a day off, you may be finishing at 2am on the Sunday morning and back in at 3am on the Monday, they certainly don't feel like a day off so you can't reasonably plan to do much or spend quality time with family because you are knackered!

That would therefore of meant whilst technically working 1 in 2.5 Sundays you would sometimes only get 1 in 6 where you actually got a day off that you could usefully use.

Tomnick · 27 Aug 2019

scrapy said:
Drivers on the West side generally have 1 in 3 Sundays as part of a weekend off, then 1 in 3 where they have been on a late shift on the Saturday and early on the Monday and 1 in 3 where they were on an early shift on the Saturday and late on the Monday.

It's been worked out that to provide the full franchise service (not the current timetable) including 2tph Wigan to Liverpool, 2tph on Atherton line, 1tph mid Cheshire and Stoke, and have appropriate spare cover (as people would be able to have annual leave on Sundays) that drivers would have to worķ 1 in every 2.5 Sundays, which is far more than the company and ASLEF reps were suggesting would happen, but there was nothing in the deal to stop this. As drivers can't work when moving from a late week to an early week, it would have meant some depots working every Sunday where they move from early to lates, plus some Sundays in long weekends (which was not specifically excluded in the document).

Although Sundays where you move from lates to earlies are technically a day off, you may be finishing at 2am on the Sunday morning and back in at 3am on the Monday, they certainly don't feel like a day off so you can't reasonably plan to do much or spend quality time with family because you are knackered!

That would therefore of meant whilst technically working 1 in 2.5 Sundays you would sometimes only get 1 in 6 where you actually got a day off that you could usefully use.

It’s looking like a similar situation at our place, but the favourite proposal seems to be to move the swap from lates to earlies to the Wed/Thu rest days rather than Sundays, so that you’d work some of the previously ‘short’ Sundays rather than interfering with long weekends. A bonus (as I see it at least) is spending longer on each side (earlies/lates) rather than having to adjust each week, but on the other hand it’d wreak havoc with those who have permanent swaps!

Jamesrob637 · 20 Oct 2019

A few cancelled today but numbers seem lower than past Sundays.

Llandudno · 20 Oct 2019

Jamesrob637 said:
A few cancelled today but numbers seem lower than past Sundays.

Overtime needed, Christmas is coming!

PR1Berske · 20 Oct 2019

Llandudno said:
Overtime needed, Christmas is coming!

Cynic

setdown · 20 Oct 2019

So two consecutive trains from Preston to Liverpool are cancelled, the 1859 and 1952. Shortage of train drivers.

These were shown as running just two hours ago. How do they have two drivers go missing at short notice? And if they never had drivers allocated to them, why not show them as cancelled this morning, then reinstate them if cover was found?

Killingworth · 20 Oct 2019

Jamesrob637 said:
A few cancelled today but numbers seem lower than past Sundays.

Not so on the Hope Valley line where Sunday cancellations were rare until about August. Today we seem to have three of the return Piccadilly - Sheffield hourly services cancelled, none apparently showing as such last night. That seems to be happening randomly almost every Sunday. Fortunately I checked this morning and drove our visitor into Sheffield to catch her ongoing train.

On 8th September there were no services before lunchtime. I know a group of 20 experienced walkers who gathered at Dore and were fuming, but got back in their cars to go elsewhere.

It's amazing so many still try to use the services, operated as they often are with single unit Pacers that can't cope with Saturday crowds and don't even turn up on Sundays. Tourists into the Peak District by train are probably less than 1% of visitors but even less to the Hope Valley today. This comes after 6 months with no Saturday trains.

60 years ago there were long excursion trains feeding in from east and west. The market is potentially bigger than ever, but where are the trains?

The Peak District has been swamped with cars this weekend, parking wherever they can find a space.

Bovverboy · 20 Oct 2019

Jamesrob637 said:
A few cancelled today but numbers seem lower than past Sundays.

Early in the day there weren't many impromptu cancellations, but things seem to have gone downhill as the day has progressed, as they often do. Three consecutive round trips on Liverpool - Manchester Airport have been cancelled this evening, for instance.
Don't forget the pre-planned cancellations, which do rather reduce the need to cancel on the day. Today they have been:
Southport - Todmorden - Blackburn cancelled Manchester Victoria - Todmorden - Blackburn, saving three diagrams;
Wigan - Stalybridge cancelled completely, saving three diagrams;
Clitheroe - Manchester Victoria cancelled completely, saving three diagrams;
Lancaster - Morecambe (- Heysham) cancelled completely, saving one diagram.

Note the cancellation of Clitheroe - Manchester Victoria, instead of the more usual Blackpool North - Manchester Victoria.

Ianigsy · 20 Oct 2019

Also seemed to be a Leeds-Doncaster turn missing this afternoon (due to driver shortages) when I was coming back from Sandal and Agbrigg.

DC2001 · 20 Oct 2019

Bovverboy said:
Early in the day there weren't many impromptu cancellations, but things seem to have gone downhill as the day has progressed, as they often do. Three consecutive round trips on Liverpool - Manchester Airport have been cancelled this evening, for instance.
Don't forget the pre-planned cancellations, which do rather reduce the need to cancel on the day. Today they have been:
Southport - Todmorden - Blackburn cancelled Manchester Victoria - Todmorden - Blackburn, saving three diagrams;
Wigan - Stalybridge cancelled completely, saving three diagrams;
Clitheroe - Manchester Victoria cancelled completely, saving three diagrams;
Lancaster - Morecambe (- Heysham) cancelled completely, saving one diagram.

Note the cancellation of Clitheroe - Manchester Victoria, instead of the more usual Blackpool North - Manchester Victoria.

I wonder if that is anything to do with the number of complaints they have had about the Blackpool - Victoria cancellations?

Bovverboy · 21 Oct 2019

DC2001 said:
I wonder if that is anything to do with the number of complaints they have had about the Blackpool - Victoria cancellations?

They'll have had plenty of those, but I think where Northern have come unstuck, particularly, is in not only cancelling the complete Sunday service on Victorias, they've then let journeys on other Blackpool services miss left, right, and centre. Some Sunday evenings hardly any trains at all have operated to/from Blackpool.

DC2001 · 21 Oct 2019

Bovverboy said:
They'll have had plenty of those, but I think where Northern have come unstuck, particularly, is in not only cancelling the complete Sunday service on Victorias, they've then let journeys on other Blackpool services miss left, right, and centre. Some Sunday evenings hardly any trains at all have operated to/from Blackpool.

It has been horrendous. Yesterday was much better than usual however they did still cancel the last train from Manchester to Blackpool.

eastwestdivide · 21 Oct 2019

Killingworth said:
Not so on the Hope Valley line where Sunday cancellations were rare until about August. Today we seem to have three of the return Piccadilly - Sheffield hourly services cancelled,...

To add to the Sunday Hope Valley story... We went from Sheffield on the 0914, a 150 (full and standing from Sheffield), to do some walking above Grindleford. Glimpsed a 142 on another service (I think the one that formed the 1014ish from Sheffield).
Coming back, we found ourselves at Grindleford at 1515ish, in time for the 1547, fortunately a service that was running between two cancelled ones. I say fortunately, but it was a 142 that was so full that the guard couldn't even get from the doors to the back cab. Even standing without any handholds, you couldn't fall over.
Why they couldn't rustle up a slightly larger train I don't know, as there must surely have been spare units hanging round in Manchester from the number of cancellations.
Those Hope Valley stoppers are getting really crowded at the weekends, full and standing leaving Sheffield isn't uncommon.

scrapy · 21 Oct 2019

DC2001 said:
I wonder if that is anything to do with the number of complaints they have had about the Blackpool - Victoria cancellations?

I honestly don't think Northern care about the complaints. The Blackpool to Manchester Vic services are predominately crewed from the Blackpool end (about 60% of services vs 40% Manchester and a few Wigan drivers) whereas the Clitheroe services are crewed by Manchester Vic and Blackburn drivers (about 70/30 split). Cancellations will be based on driver availability.

Killingworth · 21 Oct 2019

eastwestdivide said:
To add to the Sunday Hope Valley story... We went from Sheffield on the 0914, a 150 (full and standing from Sheffield), to do some walking above Grindleford. Glimpsed a 142 on another service (I think the one that formed the 1014ish from Sheffield).
Coming back, we found ourselves at Grindleford at 1515ish, in time for the 1547, fortunately a service that was running between two cancelled ones. I say fortunately, but it was a 142 that was so full that the guard couldn't even get from the doors to the back cab. Even standing without any handholds, you couldn't fall over.
Why they couldn't rustle up a slightly larger train I don't know, as there must surely have been spare units hanging round in Manchester from the number of cancellations.
Those Hope Valley stoppers are getting really crowded at the weekends, full and standing leaving Sheffield isn't uncommon.

I can echo all of that as I was also walking near Grindleford as well as at Dore yesterday. As the services either side of yours were cancelled they must have had at least one extra unit available - and probably a 150 to boot! The next thing we'll hear is they were all being serviced. My complaint on Twitter was answered with a claim of trespassers!

Bovverboy · 21 Oct 2019

eastwestdivide said:
Why they couldn't rustle up a slightly larger train I don't know, as there must surely have been spare units hanging round in Manchester from the number of cancellations.

Even without cancellations, there would have been plenty of spare units available, Northern's requirement for rolling stock on a Sunday is well down on that for Mondays to Saturdays.

Xenophon PCDGS · 22 Oct 2019

Bovverboy said:
Even without cancellations, there would have been plenty of spare units available, Northern's requirement for rolling stock on a Sunday is well down on that for Mondays to Saturdays.

Does the franchise now in existence stipulate the number of Sunday services run on each of the lines covered by this franchise. Is it not the case that the drivers' view on Sunday working was known to those who put this franchise out to tender?

Carlisle · 22 Oct 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
. Is it not the case that the drivers' view on Sunday working was known to those who put this franchise out to tender?

Yes, that’s why all parties responsible for managing this problem long choose to place it into the ‘too difficult category ‘

Xenophon PCDGS · 22 Oct 2019

Carlisle said:
Yes, that’s why all parties responsible for managing this problem long choose to place it into the ‘too difficult category ‘

How would the rail unions view a decision not to run any rail services on Sundays in the area of the Northern franchise?

scrapy · 22 Oct 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
How would the rail unions view a decision not to run any rail services on Sundays in the area of the Northern franchise?

Probably not very favourably. As has been said many times before. The rail unions want enough staff to be employed to have Sunday as a normal day in the working week. It's Northern that don't want to/can't afford to pay for it and have Sundays as overtime. The lack of staff on a Sunday is nothing to do with any union activity

Killingworth · 22 Oct 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
How would the rail unions view a decision not to run any rail services on Sundays in the area of the Northern franchise?

As union leader I might find that worth considering - if my members' income and job security was protected. However I might have a little commercial common sense to appreciate that the user going one way on Sunday may be coming back on another day, so two journeys lost. It's very short sighted.

Back in the 1960s the busiest time of the week in banks was Saturday mornings. However, staff didn't want to work on Saturdays so they went and got other jobs, which is why an awful lot of us can say we once worked in a bank. So the employers gave in, primarily because London branches couldn't recruit staff at all and young people were signed up in the north and put up in hostels in London. in 1969 banks closed on Saturdays and the staff kept broadly the same terms for fewer days.

What happened? Banks lost business to building societies that still opened on Saturdays. Automation slowly took away most of the routine work and bank branches are very hard to find. Some reopened on Saturdays after about 15-20 years offering a limited service but the habit was broken. Why haven't railways followed suit? On many lines they did as Beeching's era bit. Subsidies have kept much alive.

Not a precise analogy, but there are some big similarities. On Sunday Northern failed to run 3 of the hourly return services down the Hope Valley. The ones that ran were absolutely rammed full and alternative buses too. Rail is making itself irrelevant when a walking group of 20+ (like one I know) could turn up for a train ride before starting a 12 mile walk - and find there were no trains before lunch. After the 6 months Saturday shut down why plan anything to include rail?

Yet people still do! But for how long if it's not fixed?

Xenophon PCDGS · 22 Oct 2019

scrapy said:
Probably not very favourably. As has been said many times before. The rail unions want enough staff to be employed to have Sunday as a normal day in the working week. It's Northern that don't want to/can't afford to pay for it and have Sundays as overtime. The lack of staff on a Sunday is nothing to do with any union activity

Thank you for this clarification. I have, however, seen postings over the years that categorically stated that some drivers do not want to work on Sundays.

northernchris · 22 Oct 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Thank you for this clarification. I have, however, seen postings over the years that categorically stated that some drivers do not want to work on Sundays.

I suspect some drivers won't want to work Sundays, however the unions aren't going to be able to please all of their members as everyone's circumstances are different. Sundays need to be brought in to the working week as soon as possible - if the franchise is amended / terminated hopefully this will become a very high priority to resolve

dk1 · 22 Oct 2019

northernchris said:
I suspect some drivers won't want to work Sundays, however the unions aren't going to be able to please all of their members as everyone's circumstances are different. Sundays need to be brought in to the working week as soon as possible - if the franchise is amended / terminated hopefully this will become a very high priority to resolve

What difference will amending or terminating the franchise make? I have not known any change in members opinion unless a gold plated offer is made. We just stay as we are.

northernchris · 22 Oct 2019

dk1 said:
What difference will amending or terminating the franchise make? I have not known any change in members opinion unless a gold plated offer is made. We just stay as we are.

If Northern become nationalised, it becomes a Government problem to resolve. I don't remember British Rail however reading a lot of comments on this forum a nationalised system would solve the majority of today's issues

If the franchise is amended, hopefully one of the new terms will be to have Sundays as a standard day, preferably with a deadline date, say 12 months in to the term

Glenn1969 · 22 Oct 2019

But the DfT deemed Northern to be not worthy of growth due to the amount of subsidy it requires not that long ago. So in this case nationalisation isn't the answer

northernchris · 22 Oct 2019

Glenn1969 said:
But the DfT deemed Northern to be not worthy of growth due to the amount of subsidy it requires not that long ago. So in this case nationalisation isn't the answer

In which case reletting the franchise with a stronger focus on reliability would probably be better. It appears as though Sunday working is getting buried beneath a lot of other issues at the moment, whatever the future of Northern a reliable and enhanced Sunday service should be one of the top priorities

dk1 · 23 Oct 2019

northernchris said:
If Northern become nationalised, it becomes a Government problem to resolve. I don't remember British Rail however reading a lot of comments on this forum a nationalised system would solve the majority of today's issues

If the franchise is amended, hopefully one of the new terms will be to have Sundays as a standard day, preferably with a deadline date, say 12 months in to the term

The franchise can be amended all it likes but if ASLEF members refuse to accept Sunday as part of the working week it won't happen in 12 years let alone 12 months.

Xenophon PCDGS · 23 Oct 2019

dk1 said:
The franchise can be amended all it likes but if ASLEF members refuse to accept Sunday as part of the working week it won't happen in 12 years let alone 12 months.

That is exactly the point that I sought to make in an earlier posting on this thread, which made reference to certain drivers not wishing to work Sundays.

Why are Northern allowed to cancel Sunday Services seemingly at will?

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