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Rail-ferry connections - present and future

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Jamesrob637

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There is also Heysham for the Isle of Man.

Most ports seem tobhave a bus at least. Portsmouth International for France or Jersey is 5 minutes to walk from the nearest bus stop. Newcastle and Hull have a bus for foot passengers from the train station, Cairnryan has the Ayr bus link for the railway otherwise Citylink serves it. Poole requires a 30 minute walk though while not sure if Dover or Belfast have a shuttle bus either.

Usually though there are ways to get to the ports by public transport. Which port should have a train station though is debatable.

Top Gear took a bus from the airport in Newcastle to the ferry terminal - is this still possible?
 
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30907

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Top Gear took a bus from the airport in Newcastle to the ferry terminal - is this still possible?
AFAIK (and Googlemaps confirms) the only direct public bus service is the one to and from Central station. I can't imagine why anyone would fly into Newcastle to go to Ijmuiden (though I suppose you might to board a cruise ship?)
 

AlbertBeale

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Near extinct, or possibly even already so, Trelleborg in south-Sweden (former DDR-ferries to Sassnitz-there was a good transfer with also trains on the ferry long ago there, but moved on De-side to a carpor some 6-7 kms away and without even an dediciated buslink.

There still is a service of through overnight Malmo-Berlin sleeper trains using the Trelleborg-Sassnitz ferry in the summer months. Though most of the train ferry links from Trelleborg are used year-round just for freight wagons I believe.
 

berneyarms

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Rosslare Ireland has a poorly served rail station and it used to be right in the terminal. Sadly that was moved out despite the fact that Europort is operated by Irish Rail.
What is the Fishgard/Pembroke ends like?
The railway station at Rosslare was relocated post 9/11 in order to ensure that the ship side area was secure - it was bisected previously by the railway and a level crossing.
 
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Hi Albert, hi all,

Great post, I couldn't agree with you more. In days-gone-by when it was common place to make long distance journeys that included rail-sea-rail often had well integrated facilities and simple cheap through ticketing as you describe at Dover, Calais, Folkestone, Dieppe, Cherbourg, Oostende, Stranraer, Larne and many more all come to mind. All of which have long been neglected and some sadly since closed completely, having fallen victim to new high-speed links and of course the budget airlines boom..
I also think it was foolish to remove these well integrated train-ferry-train links, as some 25+ years on people are slowly becoming aware of the global climate crisis and looking to alternatives to flying short-haul.
I suppose such links could be easily reinstated in some places but of course it all comes down to money, politics, will for it to happen or lack thereof...

Newhaven-Dieppe still makes London-Paris by night possible, relatively cheaply but sadly now with a bit of walking on the Dieppe side as the port has been relocated out of town. I did this last year, 377 from VIC to Lewes, then down the branch to Newhaven Town -(not Marine or even harbour now!), few minute walk into the new terminal and onto what must have been my shortest bus journey ever a couple of hundred meters to the linkspan, everyone off and walk down the ramp onto the cardeck of the good ship, Côte D’Albatre. Went upstairs to the restaurant for a quick bite and half bottle of rosé before collapsing over some seats for the few hours over to Dieppe for the same inreverse before the trek to la Gare for the brand new kart to Rouen to pick up a BB 15000 on a crowded VO2N set full of Normandie commuters into Saint-Lazare.. 8-)

Dover-Calais on the other hand is as you describe a real pity as both Dover Western Docks and Calais-Maritime are of course now long gone necessitating a twenty minute walk or taxis on each side. The fun part in going to Paris this way sadly ends on Sunday when the BB 67400 / BB 22200 hauled Corail trains finish for good after more than forty years.. :'(
Boulogne-sur-Mer too is a tragedy, the ferries to la Gare Maritime stopped in 2009, trains had already long stopped back in the 90's I believe?
But the regional council funded A LOT of taxpayers money in building the new "Hub Port" out of town by the old Hoverport at Le Portal, only for Speed Ferries to go bankrupt a year later.
The brand new port facilities remain unused and derelict nearly ten years on with no signs of anyone wanting to reopen the route, it has hurt the town bad.. :(

Oostende is shadow of its former self and a shame as there is still so much potential there with the linkspan right beside the platforms but unused since Transeuropa Ferries through in the towel with the route to/from Ramsgate back in 2013.
Then there was recently hope of new beginnings and jobs created in both Ramsgate and Oostende with Seaborne Freight's ill fated "brexit ferry", they even said they hoped to carry foot passengers when they got started but I guess that too is now out of the window.. :rolleyes:

I suppose there is still the western channel routes from Portsmouth and Poole to Le Havre, Cherbourg, Ouistreham, Saint-Malo and Roscoff but I've never went that way so dunno how easy the boat to train transfer is over there?

Then you still have Hull-Zeebrugge with a bus from the station in Hull and a ten-fifteen minute walk down the port ramp to Zeebrugge Strand station (when its open) for onward train to Brugge / Gent / Brussel or wherever.

Harwich-Hoek van Holland will be the best remaining example again when (if..?) the metro conversion is ever finished. Hopefully the excellent Dutchflyer CIV through ticketing will remain too with validity of the metro and the possibility to book a return journey from any NS station to any Greater Anglia station, at present this is only possible in the outward direction I believe?

On the Irish Sea, Larne is still a great train-ferry interchange port but alas, Cairn on the other side is not, although there is a bus to the old station in Stranraer for train onward to Glasgow (now via Killie, or change at Ayr for faster), unfortunately none of the cheap rail&sail tickets are valid this way anymore as they are routed via Stena's direct Belfast service with bus all the way to Ayr to pick up the train, which means you now have to buy separate train+ferry+train tickets to follow the traditional route.
Until 2015, P&O sailed Larne-Troon which was a lot more handy for the train.

Never done Belfast-Liverpool? Hamilton Square Mersey Rail station easily accessible from the port??

Holyhead as mentioned up-thread remains well rail connected albeit with the linkspan relocated and thus now involves a port bus on both ends.
Further south, Fishguard-Rosslare is now a dogs dinner.. The timetable was completely screwed up a year or so ago and now this route is only useful to rail passengers in one direction East>West. Going the other way, the morning boat leaves too early to be reached by any train from Wexford or Dublin and the line to Waterford was of course sadly closed in 2010.
The night boat and train is now totally useless, unless of course you live in Carmarthen as it now runs no further, dumping you there in the dead of night. A real pity as this used to continue to Swansea to connect there with the HST to Paddington until recently, making a cheap overnight journey in the direction Dublin-London possible this way.
Bizarrely there is now a "night train to nowhere" from Manchester Piccadilly, which leaves about 19:30, arriving into Fishguard around 02:30, where there is no boat for many hours!
I think this unit then forms the aforementioned useless Carmarthen train.
On the other side, the timetable is also not great with long waits between the ferry and train on the connections that do work.
To top this off, none of the through CIV tickets to any station in GB/IE are routed through here anymore, they are all routed through Dublin port (pay for bus / taxi to city centre separately..), which defeats the purpose of the integrated train-ferry-train port facilities in Fishguard/Rosslare with through CIV ticketing! Now you can only buy rail&sail tickets to/from Rosslare Europort and have to buy a separate ticket for the CIÉ train.
And as has already been mentioned up-thread, the fact that the platform has unnecessarily been moved from the berths to half a mile from the terminal is also a step in the backward direction, -did CIÉ really fear the IRA was planning to bomb the Fishguard ferry?! :rolleyes:
This one really does need sorting out!!

Just my experiences / opinions but sadly I don't see much hope of integrated rail facilities at ports coming back where they have disappeared due to a number of reasons, including; an abundance of budget airlines, high-speed links, privatisation, fragmentation, disappearance of through ticketing and general incompetence as mentioned above... :frown:
 

Red Onion

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Edit - just realised this is in the international board and post related to domestic services! This can be deleted.
 

berneyarms

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Hi Albert, hi all,

Great post, I couldn't agree with you more. In days-gone-by when it was common place to make long distance journeys that included rail-sea-rail often had well integrated facilities and simple cheap through ticketing as you describe at Dover, Calais, Folkestone, Dieppe, Cherbourg, Oostende, Stranraer, Larne and many more all come to mind. All of which have long been neglected and some sadly since closed completely, having fallen victim to new high-speed links and of course the budget airlines boom..
I also think it was foolish to remove these well integrated train-ferry-train links, as some 25+ years on people are slowly becoming aware of the global climate crisis and looking to alternatives to flying short-haul.
I suppose such links could be easily reinstated in some places but of course it all comes down to money, politics, will for it to happen or lack thereof...

Newhaven-Dieppe still makes London-Paris by night possible, relatively cheaply but sadly now with a bit of walking on the Dieppe side as the port has been relocated out of town. I did this last year, 377 from VIC to Lewes, then down the branch to Newhaven Town -(not Marine or even harbour now!), few minute walk into the new terminal and onto what must have been my shortest bus journey ever a couple of hundred meters to the linkspan, everyone off and walk down the ramp onto the cardeck of the good ship, Côte D’Albatre. Went upstairs to the restaurant for a quick bite and half bottle of rosé before collapsing over some seats for the few hours over to Dieppe for the same inreverse before the trek to la Gare for the brand new kart to Rouen to pick up a BB 15000 on a crowded VO2N set full of Normandie commuters into Saint-Lazare.. 8-)

Dover-Calais on the other hand is as you describe a real pity as both Dover Western Docks and Calais-Maritime are of course now long gone necessitating a twenty minute walk or taxis on each side. The fun part in going to Paris this way sadly ends on Sunday when the BB 67400 / BB 22200 hauled Corail trains finish for good after more than forty years.. :'(
Boulogne-sur-Mer too is a tragedy, the ferries to la Gare Maritime stopped in 2009, trains had already long stopped back in the 90's I believe?
But the regional council funded A LOT of taxpayers money in building the new "Hub Port" out of town by the old Hoverport at Le Portal, only for Speed Ferries to go bankrupt a year later.
The brand new port facilities remain unused and derelict nearly ten years on with no signs of anyone wanting to reopen the route, it has hurt the town bad.. :(

Oostende is shadow of its former self and a shame as there is still so much potential there with the linkspan right beside the platforms but unused since Transeuropa Ferries through in the towel with the route to/from Ramsgate back in 2013.
Then there was recently hope of new beginnings and jobs created in both Ramsgate and Oostende with Seaborne Freight's ill fated "brexit ferry", they even said they hoped to carry foot passengers when they got started but I guess that too is now out of the window.. :rolleyes:

I suppose there is still the western channel routes from Portsmouth and Poole to Le Havre, Cherbourg, Ouistreham, Saint-Malo and Roscoff but I've never went that way so dunno how easy the boat to train transfer is over there?

Then you still have Hull-Zeebrugge with a bus from the station in Hull and a ten-fifteen minute walk down the port ramp to Zeebrugge Strand station (when its open) for onward train to Brugge / Gent / Brussel or wherever.

Harwich-Hoek van Holland will be the best remaining example again when (if..?) the metro conversion is ever finished. Hopefully the excellent Dutchflyer CIV through ticketing will remain too with validity of the metro and the possibility to book a return journey from any NS station to any Greater Anglia station, at present this is only possible in the outward direction I believe?

On the Irish Sea, Larne is still a great train-ferry interchange port but alas, Cairn on the other side is not, although there is a bus to the old station in Stranraer for train onward to Glasgow (now via Killie, or change at Ayr for faster), unfortunately none of the cheap rail&sail tickets are valid this way anymore as they are routed via Stena's direct Belfast service with bus all the way to Ayr to pick up the train, which means you now have to buy separate train+ferry+train tickets to follow the traditional route.
Until 2015, P&O sailed Larne-Troon which was a lot more handy for the train.

Never done Belfast-Liverpool? Hamilton Square Mersey Rail station easily accessible from the port??

Holyhead as mentioned up-thread remains well rail connected albeit with the linkspan relocated and thus now involves a port bus on both ends.
Further south, Fishguard-Rosslare is now a dogs dinner.. The timetable was completely screwed up a year or so ago and now this route is only useful to rail passengers in one direction East>West. Going the other way, the morning boat leaves too early to be reached by any train from Wexford or Dublin and the line to Waterford was of course sadly closed in 2010.
The night boat and train is now totally useless, unless of course you live in Carmarthen as it now runs no further, dumping you there in the dead of night. A real pity as this used to continue to Swansea to connect there with the HST to Paddington until recently, making a cheap overnight journey in the direction Dublin-London possible this way.
Bizarrely there is now a "night train to nowhere" from Manchester Piccadilly, which leaves about 19:30, arriving into Fishguard around 02:30, where there is no boat for many hours!
I think this unit then forms the aforementioned useless Carmarthen train.
On the other side, the timetable is also not great with long waits between the ferry and train on the connections that do work.
To top this off, none of the through CIV tickets to any station in GB/IE are routed through here anymore, they are all routed through Dublin port (pay for bus / taxi to city centre separately..), which defeats the purpose of the integrated train-ferry-train port facilities in Fishguard/Rosslare with through CIV ticketing! Now you can only buy rail&sail tickets to/from Rosslare Europort and have to buy a separate ticket for the CIÉ train.
And as has already been mentioned up-thread, the fact that the platform has unnecessarily been moved from the berths to half a mile from the terminal is also a step in the backward direction, -did CIÉ really fear the IRA was planning to bomb the Fishguard ferry?! :rolleyes:
This one really does need sorting out!!

Just my experiences / opinions but sadly I don't see much hope of integrated rail facilities at ports coming back where they have disappeared due to a number of reasons, including; an abundance of budget airlines, high-speed links, privatisation, fragmentation, disappearance of through ticketing and general incompetence as mentioned above... :frown:

The relocation of the station at Rosslare was at the behest of the Irish security forces - post 9/11 they wanted the shipside area completely secure, rather than bisected by the railway. That event changed the security situation and it wasn’t the IRA specifically they were considering (given there was a cessation of their campaign), but wider security threats.

There are also multiple ferry routes out of Rosslare, not just the Fishguard ferry.

It was nothing really to do with CIE as you imply.

Just to point out that three out of four Stena sailings into and out of Rosslare have now got rail connections, which is a major improvement, and the evening connection in Wales now runs to Swansea and not Carmarthen as you suggest.
 
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AlexNL

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Re. Hoek van Holland: the entire line has been adjusted to fit Rotterdam metro vehicles, which includes ensuring level access between train and platform. As the metro vehicles are built to a different loading gauge than conventional trains on the Dutch network, it won't be possible to run regular trains over the Hoekse Lijn.

To cater for freight traffic the line has been equipped with gauntlet track between Schiedam and Maassluis, which allows the wider freight trains to still run to their destinations. Between Maassluis and Hoek van Holland this has not been done (as no regular trains are expected there), but it has not been made impossible to fit this at a later date should the need arise.
 

riceuten

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"looking to alternatives to flying short-haul"

Not really sure a smoke belching diesel boat is actually that much more environmentally friendly
 

AlbertBeale

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Re. Hoek van Holland: the entire line has been adjusted to fit Rotterdam metro vehicles, which includes ensuring level access between train and platform. As the metro vehicles are built to a different loading gauge than conventional trains on the Dutch network, it won't be possible to run regular trains over the Hoekse Lijn.

To cater for freight traffic the line has been equipped with gauntlet track between Schiedam and Maassluis, which allows the wider freight trains to still run to their destinations. Between Maassluis and Hoek van Holland this has not been done (as no regular trains are expected there), but it has not been made impossible to fit this at a later date should the need arise.

That's good news - that although only part of the metro-fied line from Shiedam to HvH is capable of handling regular trains (for the freight links), the rest could be done later. So maybe international through carriages from HvH to various parts of Europe - which were so convenient years ago - might one day be revived.....

Re someone's question about through ticketing when the metro opens, I understand that the Sail-Rail tickets from London (and other places), via Harwich-HvH, to anywhere in the Netherlands, will be valid on the metro link to Schiedam for onward rail journeys. And the metro station at HvH is presumably where the old station was, so still right by where the ferry docks. From what I can tell, that metro line won't go via the main Rotterdam rail station, and so would entail a change of metro lines to get there - hence Schiedam is going to be the best place to feed into the rail network. Though that seems to have decent connections to most places in the Netherlands (albeit with - easy - changes in some cases), so that's not too much of a hardship.
 

jamesontheroad

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In the days since this thread was started, there has some been some good rail-ferry news from Sweden.

Snälltåget (literally “the fast train”) have bought ten air conditioned couchette cars from Deutsche Bahn which will be used to strengthen the summertime Malmö - Berlin sleeper. This uses the Trelleborg - Sassnitz ferry.

Snälltåget haven’t said exactly what they will do... whether the thrice-weekly summer service will go daily next year, or whether it will be have more carriages on each departure. Some departures this summer have been running at 100% capacity, with sales up more than 40% on last summer.

Currently they use Swedish rolling stock without air conditioning, which is both unpleasant to sleep in on the boat during hot weather and difficult to drive further than Berlin (because of the loading gauge).

Snälltåget will also run three additional weekend trips in the autumn to test demand around a couple of big events in Berlin: the anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, the marathon and the Christmas markets. Interestingly these will run through from Stockholm, not just Malmö. They might be testing the water for sleeper trains all the way between the two capitals, along the Stockholm Malmö route they serve with daytime trains.
 

30907

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Snälltåget (literally “the fast train”) have bought ten air conditioned couchette cars from Deutsche Bahn which will be used to strengthen the summertime Malmö - Berlin sleeper. This uses the Trelleborg - Sassnitz ferry.

Snälltåget haven’t said exactly what they will do... whether the thrice-weekly summer service will go daily next year, or whether it will be have more carriages on each departure. Some departures this summer have been running at 100% capacity, with sales up more than 40% on last summer.

Pure speculation, but I wonder whether they will use the new stock to run Stockholm - Hamburg - Berlin via Padborg, responding to Swedish demands for better night connections.
This would mean abandoning the ferry altogether, and Malmö would lose out, but the present service has so much slack in the schedule because of fitting with the ferry times.
 
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The relocation of the station at Rosslare was at the behest of the Irish security forces - post 9/11 they wanted the shipside area completely secure, rather than bisected by the railway. That event changed the security situation and it wasn’t the IRA specifically they were considering (given there was a cessation of their campaign), but wider security threats.

There are also multiple ferry routes out of Rosslare, not just the Fishguard ferry.

It was nothing really to do with CIE as you imply.

Just to point out that three out of four Stena sailings into and out of Rosslare have now got rail connections, which is a major improvement, and the evening connection in Wales now runs to Swansea and not Carmarthen as you suggest.

I looked it up, the old station closed on April 14, 2008 according to Wikipedia.
So hardly "post 9/11", as that was already more than six years previously on the other side of the world and I can't find any relation to the that being the reason unless you of course know otherwise?
There are plenty of other places in the world where trains and ferries run side-by-side without problems and there is no need to relocate them half a mile apart out of fear someone might hijack a plane and fly it into them.. So I think this is a rather bizarre reason for relocating the station...
I believe the CIÉ/Iarnród Éireann own and operate the port, so the decision to relocate the station must surely have had something to do with them?!
Yes, I'm aware of the other Stena route to Cherbourg and Irish also sailed to Roscoff and Pembroke Dock until recently, all of which are equally hardly high targets of international terrorism!

The two trains I was referring to are the 1V64 19:31 Manchester Piccadilly - Fishguard Harbour, arriving at 02:37, (next ferry to Rosslare is at 13:10!) & 2E37 02:37 Fishguard Harbour - Carmarthen which arrives at into Carmarthen at 03:27 and there is no onward connection to Swansea, Cardiff and London etc until 05:03(!!) This train used to continue to Swansea and connect there with the 1L05 03:59 HST to Paddington, so this situation is hardly a "major improvement" as you claim!
This means the overnight connection in the direction: Dublin-London no longer works this way! :rolleyes:
 

AlbertBeale

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Pure speculation, but I wonder whether they will use the new stock to run Stockholm - Hamburg - Berlin via Padborg, responding to Swedish demands for better night connections.
This would mean abandoning the ferry altogether, and Malmö would lose out, but the present service has so much slack in the schedule because of fitting with the ferry times.

Not sure how Malmo would lose out.

If the suggestion is that to save shunting on and off a ferry, then trains might go "the long way round" via Denmark (Padborg) etc, then Malmo would still be on the Stockholm-Germany route, so people from there could get direct trains to Germany still.

However, it's such a long way round, in comparison, that even though the ferry section is obviously at a much slower speed, the overall journey time - if going as far east as Berlin - surely wouldn't be so disproportionate - and on an overnight service, there's less time pressure. So if international overnight trains from Sweden did take off, maybe there'd be enough custom on the existing Malmö-Berlin train ferry route that ferry timings could be adjusted more for the needs of the train, the trains could run every day, and could include sleepers as well as couchettes. So maybe that route has a future for overnight trains, still?

Of course when the tunnel replaces the existing Denmark-Germany train ferry (via Puttgarden) in a few years' time, then that might be sufficiently less of a long way round that it would rival the Trelleborg - Sassnitz route as a good night train route. Though I could still see - if total usage was high enough - that though all day trains went via Puttgarden, there might be scope for sleepers to Berlin and points east via Trelleborg, while Stockhom sleepers to Hamburg and the west used the new tunnel. But so much depends on the degree to which sleepers take over from a lot of plane travel.
 

Flying Snail

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I looked it up, the old station closed on April 14, 2008 according to Wikipedia.
So hardly "post 9/11", as that was already more than six years previously on the other side of the world and I can't find any relation to the that being the reason unless you of course know otherwise?
There are plenty of other places in the world where trains and ferries run side-by-side without problems and there is no need to relocate them half a mile apart out of fear someone might hijack a plane and fly it into them.. So I think this is a rather bizarre reason for relocating the station...
I believe the CIÉ/Iarnród Éireann own and operate the port, so the decision to relocate the station must surely have had something to do with them?!
Yes, I'm aware of the other Stena route to Cherbourg and Irish also sailed to Roscoff and Pembroke Dock until recently, all of which are equally hardly high targets of international terrorism!

AFAIK it was about freeing space and paths inside the shipside part of the port for customs/immigration/security as well as general use which was hampered by the rail line and level crossing, not a specific security concern with the railway line.

The two trains I was referring to are the 1V64 19:31 Manchester Piccadilly - Fishguard Harbour, arriving at 02:37, (next ferry to Rosslare is at 13:10!) & 2E37 02:37 Fishguard Harbour - Carmarthen which arrives at into Carmarthen at 03:27 and there is no onward connection to Swansea, Cardiff and London etc until 05:03(!!) This train used to continue to Swansea and connect there with the 1L05 03:59 HST to Paddington, so this situation is hardly a "major improvement" as you claim!
This means the overnight connection in the direction: Dublin-London no longer works this way! :rolleyes:

The 02.37 is not the connection from the ferry. The ferry arrives at 21.25 with the connecting train departing at 22.14 terminating at Swansea at 00.08 with no onward connections until the 03.54 GWR to Paddington, arr 07.30 the same train that was the longstanding ferry connection, just with an extremely unappealing 4 hour fester at (presumably outside) Swansea.

That late service is obviously a replacement of sorts for the former boat train but it runs approx. 1 hour later towards Fishguard and 45 mns later from Fishguard which is why it wouldn't meet the 03.54 from Swansea even if it did continue past Carmarthen. Why this service runs at all west of Swansea is a good question, it must be little used in that direction and a good candidate for a service that has never carried a fare paying passenger eastbound.

Stena Line altered their timetable for their own commercial reasons. It is no longer possible to run a connection through to London, if one was provided it would be arriving before 4am. Having the current Swansea terminator extended to Cardiff for around 01.10am wouldn't be an unreasonable enhancement.

If the overnight connection was to be re-instated the only option would be using Irish Ferries at Pembroke, I imagine keeping that line open overnight would require a lot of extra resources and providing a bus connection to Carmarthen would be far from commercially viable.
 

30907

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Not sure how Malmo would lose out.

If the suggestion is that to save shunting on and off a ferry, then trains might go "the long way round" via Denmark (Padborg) etc, then Malmo would still be on the Stockholm-Germany route, so people from there could get direct trains to Germany still.

However, it's such a long way round, in comparison, that even though the ferry section is obviously at a much slower speed, the overall journey time - if going as far east as Berlin - surely wouldn't be so disproportionate - and on an overnight service, there's less time pressure. So if international overnight trains from Sweden did take off, maybe there'd be enough custom on the existing Malmö-Berlin train ferry route that ferry timings could be adjusted more for the needs of the train, the trains could run every day, and could include sleepers as well as couchettes. So maybe that route has a future for overnight trains, still?

Of course when the tunnel replaces the existing Denmark-Germany train ferry (via Puttgarden) in a few years' time, then that might be sufficiently less of a long way round that it would rival the Trelleborg - Sassnitz route as a good night train route. Though I could still see - if total usage was high enough - that though all day trains went via Puttgarden, there might be scope for sleepers to Berlin and points east via Trelleborg, while Stockhom sleepers to Hamburg and the west used the new tunnel. But so much depends on the degree to which sleepers take over from a lot of plane travel.

Malmo would lose out because Stockholm-Hamburg-Berlin would stop there in the middle of the night.

I fear you are being highly optimistic about the Sassnitz route - Stena aren't going to reschedule their ferries to suit sleeper passengers when their money comes from road traffic (and onboard shopping, I assume). Ever since they reduced the route to a one-ship service as an economy measure it has been impossible to get sensible train timings. Sassnitz is a long way from any significant source of traffic.
 

AlbertBeale

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Malmo would lose out because Stockholm-Hamburg-Berlin would stop there in the middle of the night.

I fear you are being highly optimistic about the Sassnitz route - Stena aren't going to reschedule their ferries to suit sleeper passengers when their money comes from road traffic (and onboard shopping, I assume). Ever since they reduced the route to a one-ship service as an economy measure it has been impossible to get sensible train timings. Sassnitz is a long way from any significant source of traffic.

A Stockholm-Hamburg-Berlin sleeper (overland, not on the Sassnitz ferry) might be at Malmo in the middle of the night. It might depend on whether it left Stockholm early evening so as to be in Berlin first thing in the morning, or left Stockholm later in the evening but arrived later in the morning in Berlin. But thanks - I understand the point you were making now.

As to Sassnitz - it all depends on whether or not most European air journeys switch to rail in the coming years. If they did - and they need to for all our sakes - then there might need to be an uplift in capacity on all sorts of international rail and rail-ferry routes.
 

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Stockholm-Hamburg-Berlin sleeper (overland, not on the Sassnitz ferry) might be at Malmo in the middle of the night. It might depend on whether it left Stockholm early evening so as to be in Berlin first thing in the morning, or left Stockholm later in the evening but arrived later in the morning in Berlin. But thanks - I understand the point you were making now.

As to Sassnitz - it all depends on whether or not most European air journeys switch to rail in the coming years. If they did - and they need to for all our sakes - then there might need to be an uplift in capacity on all sorts of international rail and rail-ferry routes.

Malmo - I assume that serving Hamburg at a sensible hour would take precedence.
Sassnitz - maybe, but it won't be so long before the Fehmarn Sound project is complete, and the ferry route will become even less competitive for passenger rail. Freight might be another matter.
 

berneyarms

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I looked it up, the old station closed on April 14, 2008 according to Wikipedia.
So hardly "post 9/11", as that was already more than six years previously on the other side of the world and I can't find any relation to the that being the reason unless you of course know otherwise?
There are plenty of other places in the world where trains and ferries run side-by-side without problems and there is no need to relocate them half a mile apart out of fear someone might hijack a plane and fly it into them.. So I think this is a rather bizarre reason for relocating the station...
I believe the CIÉ/Iarnród Éireann own and operate the port, so the decision to relocate the station must surely have had something to do with them?!
Yes, I'm aware of the other Stena route to Cherbourg and Irish also sailed to Roscoff and Pembroke Dock until recently, all of which are equally hardly high targets of international terrorism!

I can assure you that the reason for the move was the desire by the Irish Customs and Garda to create a secure shipside area. The railway line previously bisected the shipside area, with all traffic boarding or disembarking ships having to use a level crossing within the shipside area. This meant that anyone could potentially enter the shipside area by simply walking along the tracks. The security services deemed that a serious risk and eventually got their way with the station being relocated.

By your logic about nowhere in Ireland is a security risk, and I’m afraid that ship has long since sailed. The security services don’t share your folksy views of Ireland I’m afraid.

CIÉ and Irish Rail obviously have a say in how Rosslare is run, but ultimately this was the call of our security services.

Now if you don’t want to believe that, that’s up to you, but I can assure you that it is the case.

The two trains I was referring to are the 1V64 19:31 Manchester Piccadilly - Fishguard Harbour, arriving at 02:37, (next ferry to Rosslare is at 13:10!) & 2E37 02:37 Fishguard Harbour - Carmarthen which arrives at into Carmarthen at 03:27 and there is no onward connection to Swansea, Cardiff and London etc until 05:03(!!) This train used to continue to Swansea and connect there with the 1L05 03:59 HST to Paddington, so this situation is hardly a "major improvement" as you claim!
This means the overnight connection in the direction: Dublin-London no longer works this way! :rolleyes:

Neither of those trains connect with the ferry.

The previous arrival and departure at Fishguard do connect with the ferry and the 22:14 service on weekdays (different times at weekends) operates to Swansea as I stated earlier.

My reference to a major improvement referred to the rail connections at Rosslare which are better than before, which I stated in my earlier post. Gone are the days of watching the train depart in the early evening as the ship approached the harbour.

The ship times changed based on the requirements of the road hauliers using the ferry, who basically are its reason for being. Unfortunately the rail connections eastbound at night don’t facilitate through travel to London without a four hour wait at Swansea.
 

berneyarms

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How relevant are foot passengers at Rosslare with Dublin Port being an convinient transport hub to go anywhere in the country?
They’re very small in number.

In terms of importance to the ferry being operated, frankly they aren’t important at all.

Freight is what keeps all the ferries alive.
 

Ianno87

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How relevant are foot passengers at Rosslare with Dublin Port being an convinient transport hub to go anywhere in the country?

They’re very small in number.

In terms of importance to the ferry being operated, frankly they aren’t important at all.

Freight is what keeps all the ferries alive.

Based on a Sunday morning in May when I travelled, about 20 foot passengers in total. Barely relevant.
 

AY1975

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Most ports seem to have a bus at least. Portsmouth International for France or Jersey is 5 minutes to walk from the nearest bus stop.

As I also mention in the thread on fastest London-Paris links pre-Eurostar at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/fastest-london-to-paris-times-before-eurostar-surface-route.171081/ BR International used to promote the Portsmouth-Le Havre ferry crossing as a through route for rail-sea-rail passengers for a time in the 1980s. In those days there were shuttle buses between Portsmouth Harbour and the continental ferry port, but it would appear that this is no longer the case (understandably as probably not many rail-sea-rail passengers use that route these days).

The Seat 61 website (www.seat61.com) still recommends this route as an alternative to Eurostar, but advises you to take a taxi from Portsmouth & Southsea station to the ferry terminal.
 

BigCj34

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As I also mention in the thread on fastest London-Paris links pre-Eurostar at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/fastest-london-to-paris-times-before-eurostar-surface-route.171081/ BR International used to promote the Portsmouth-Le Havre ferry crossing as a through route for rail-sea-rail passengers for a time in the 1980s. In those days there were shuttle buses between Portsmouth Harbour and the continental ferry port, but it would appear that this is no longer the case (understandably as probably not many rail-sea-rail passengers use that route these days).

The Seat 61 website (www.seat61.com) still recommends this route as an alternative to Eurostar, but advises you to take a taxi from Portsmouth & Southsea station to the ferry terminal.

The bus stop is called Portsmouth International ferry Terminal (or something like that). I thought I'd chance the bus as the ferry arrived 10 minutes early so plenty of time to get to the train. Though it's £2 for a bus and £5 for a taxi, so hardly a disaster if I got a cab instead if time was tight to catch a booked train.
 

AY1975

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The bus stop is called Portsmouth International ferry Terminal (or something like that). I thought I'd chance the bus as the ferry arrived 10 minutes early so plenty of time to get to the train. Though it's £2 for a bus and £5 for a taxi, so hardly a disaster if I got a cab instead if time was tight to catch a booked train.

Do you remember what the bus route number and operator was, and did it take you to Portsmouth Harbour or Portsmouth & Southsea station (I presume the latter)?

Did you notice if there were many foot passengers on the ferry? I would guess that it is mainly lorries and car passengers that keep routes such as Portsmouth to Cherbourg, Le Havre and St Malo alive these days, and foot passengers probably only account for a very small percentage of users.
 

BigCj34

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Do you remember what the bus route number and operator was, and did it take you to Portsmouth Harbour or Portsmouth & Southsea station (I presume the latter)?

Did you notice if there were many foot passengers on the ferry? I would guess that it is mainly lorries and car passengers that keep routes such as Portsmouth to Cherbourg, Le Havre and St Malo alive these days, and foot passengers probably only account for a very small percentage of users.

Not sure about number or operator, it went near PMS station though there were road works which diverted the route a bit. Clearly, the bus stop happened to be on another route rather than as a specialist bus service, so only useful for those with local knowledge or willing to look at the itineraries. The Brittany Ferries site though does even recommend a taxi and to allow 45 minutes to get to the station as far as I remember.

There are a good handful of foot passengers, as the shuttle bus from the ports to the terminal seemed to fill up. However this would clearly not be the majority. For what I was doing, in visiting Normandy on my own, then train and ferry was the cheapest and most practical option. Taking a car adds quite a lot to the cost!
 

30907

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Not sure about number or operator, it went near PMS station though there were road works which diverted the route a bit. Clearly, the bus stop happened to be on another route rather than as a specialist bus service, so only useful for those with local knowledge or willing to look at the itineraries. The Brittany Ferries site though does even recommend a taxi and to allow 45 minutes to get to the station as far as I remember.

There are a good handful of foot passengers, as the shuttle bus from the ports to the terminal seemed to fill up. However this would clearly not be the majority. For what I was doing, in visiting Normandy on my own, then train and ferry was the cheapest and most practical option. Taking a car adds quite a lot to the cost!
IIRC NX serve the terminal, and people also do park-and-ride and kiss-and-ride. Finding local buses is now much easier thanks to Googlemaps et al, but they tend not to be accommodating with heavy baggage.
 

37201xoIM

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"looking to alternatives to flying short-haul"

Not really sure a smoke belching diesel boat is actually that much more environmentally friendly
Somewhat strange statement! I suggest Google will be your friend - plenty of explanations to be had around the themes of energy-efficiency, emissions levels, and the effects of CO2 and other emissions at high altitude.... It's not really a matter one can have an opinion about, really...

None of this is of course, to say that there isn't also scope for ferries and shipping generally to become more energy-efficient and environmentally-friendly. But your statement, to be honest, is a little like suggesting that a diesel loco on a well-loaded 8-coach train is environmentally unsound because the loco is clagging......
 

smsm1

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The railway station at Rosslare was relocated post 9/11 in order to ensure that the ship side area was secure - it was bisected previously by the railway and a level crossing.
Ah that'll partly explain the poor connection I had about 4 years ago at Rosslare. The timing of the boat coming in and train departing was very close, then once off the boat, we had to wait about 10 minutes for our checked luggage. The walking route from the ferry terminal to the rail station was not obvious at all, so too long with suitcases, and just missed the train as it started moving away as we got on to the platform. Annoyingly it was the last train of the day. Luckily the Coach company drivers took pity on us, and took us up to Dublin on the Rail and Sail ticket without charging extra. Though had to get a taxi from the centre of Dublin to where we were staying as we were arriving a few hours later than expected.

When I complained to Stena Line and Irish Rail they basically passed the buck and said it wasn't their fault for their being a bad connection. Irish Rail did however say they were going to consider improving the connection for future years.
 
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