GWR Dec 19 timetable

jimm · 25 Aug 2019

irish_rail said:
My job is to drive the train not record passenger loadings. I haven't yet had a day where I have had any less than 300 leaving liskeard that is all I can confirm. I don't remember specific numbers like 415 one day and 380 the next. The figure of 300 is very much the absolute minimum, it is usually closer to 400 or more. So if you want accurate figures I can't provide them.
And whilst it is true some get off at Plymouth, this will still equate to some passengers standing for more than 20 minutes which is what the dft tries to avoid.
And whilst it would rarely fill 650 seats , this goes to show the train lengths specified where all wrong. A mix of 5, 7, 8, 9 car sets would of made more sense if trying to match actual seating required for individual services.

So the story changes yet again.

Now it's 'usually closer to 400'. I bet it isn't in the depths of winter on those days that you have previously conceded were not busy.

Is it any wonder that I and others are sceptical about some of your claims about loadings in Cornwall, given the lack of accuracy in your various claims about the number of nine-car IETs being used on off-peak duties on Oxford/Cotswold and Cheltenham services?

You have seemed entirely relaxed about the prospect of people having to stand for more than 20 minutes on IETs on what you deride as 'commuter' routes when demanding that nine-car sets be sent to run half-empty through Cornwall instead of covering duties like the 15.14 from Hereford (15.18 from December). All year round, it picks up a large number of passengers at Oxford at 17.30 who are heading to Reading and London, many of whom would be standing for a whole lot longer than 20 minutes if your demands were met.

Maybe you could now give this a rest until the new timetable beds in and there is some experience of how loadings through Cornwall adjust during the winter and over next summer to the structural changes in the timetable that Clarence Yard has pointed out.

RailUK Forums

irish_rail · 25 Aug 2019

jimm said:
So the story changes yet again.

Now it's 'usually closer to 400'. I bet it isn't in the depths of winter on those days that you have previously conceded were not busy.

Is it any wonder that I and others are sceptical about some of your claims about loadings in Cornwall, given the lack of accuracy in your various claims about the number of nine-car IETs being used on off-peak duties on Oxford/Cotswold and Cheltenham services?

You have seemed entirely relaxed about the prospect of people having to stand for more than 20 minutes on IETs on what you deride as 'commuter' routes when demanding that nine-car sets be sent to run half-empty through Cornwall instead of covering duties like the 15.14 from Hereford (15.18 from December). All year round, it picks up a large number of passengers at Oxford at 17.30 who are heading to Reading and London, many of whom would be standing for a whole lot longer than 20 minutes if your demands were met.

Maybe you could now give this a rest until the new timetable beds in and there is some experience of how loadings through Cornwall adjust during the winter and over next summer to the structural changes in the timetable that Clarence Yard has pointed out.

I'm absolutely prepared to see if things change as Clarence yard has pointed out there will be timetable changes at that time of day. But i stand by the fact that at present that train can not be a 5 car other than perhaps Tue Wed and Thur in November January and February perhaps.
I also worry about Christmas and Easter, when the 9 cars will be needed in Cornwall however I fear they will not be seen but time will tell.
As someone who has used the Cotswold line many times I stand by the fact off peak nothing at all need be 9 car beyond oxford. I also don't think it is unreasonable to be coupling 5 car sets at oxford due to the proximity of the sidings and if the coupling and uncoupling is as reliable as you and Clarence yard have claimed.

HamworthyGoods · 25 Aug 2019

irish_rail said:
I'm absolutely prepared to see if things change as Clarence yard has pointed out there will be timetable changes at that time of day. But i stand by the fact that at present that train can not be a 5 car other than perhaps Tue Wed and Thur in November January and February perhaps.
I also worry about Christmas and Easter, when the 9 cars will be needed in Cornwall however I fear they will not be seen but time will tell.
As someone who has used the Cotswold line many times I stand by the fact off peak nothing at all need be 9 car beyond oxford. I also don't think it is unreasonable to be coupling 5 car sets at oxford due to the proximity of the sidings and if the coupling and uncoupling is as reliable as you and Clarence yard have claimed.

At Oxford it isn’t the proximity of the sidings, it’s the time available in the platform, with only one through platform in each direction it often isn’t feasible to dwell the train for the detachment and provide time for the detached portion to follow the passenger train out to the sidings, same for the attachment.

Whilst Plymouth’s platform usage is different each platforms occupation is less and the fact you have platforms 4, 5, 7 and 8 (6 being too short?) effectively gives you double the number of platforms in each direction.

With any major timetable change it invariably takes a while for things including passenger habits to settle down.

CharlesR · 25 Aug 2019

irish_rail said:
I'm absolutely prepared to see if things change as Clarence yard has pointed out there will be timetable changes at that time of day. But i stand by the fact that at present that train can not be a 5 car other than perhaps Tue Wed and Thur in November January and February perhaps.
I also worry about Christmas and Easter, when the 9 cars will be needed in Cornwall however I fear they will not be seen but time will tell.
As someone who has used the Cotswold line many times I stand by the fact off peak nothing at all need be 9 car beyond oxford. I also don't think it is unreasonable to be coupling 5 car sets at oxford due to the proximity of the sidings and if the coupling and uncoupling is as reliable as you and Clarence yard have claimed.

Cornwall off peak has lower leadings than the North Cotswold line at peak times (beyond Plymouth/Oxford) therefore needs the capacity. You are speaking to us as if Cornwall is the only place where during Christmas and Spring more people travel therefore more seats have to be available. Myself being based on the South Cotswold line I am more than happy with the fact that GWR are going to operate services off peak in 5 car formations and 9 car during the peak. Originally, you speak for a particular service. Now you say that only in November’s on certain days of the week that Cornwall will cope with a 5 car unit. I understand where you are coming from to an extent, but please realise that away from Cornwall there are other places which trains need to go and can be busy on other days of the week and certain times of the year. For example, the 1636 to Cheltenham this summer has been quiet beyond Reading as it’s the holidays and that runs in a 5 car formation. In fact, off peak services I have travelled on seem to be busier.

I think you need to just lay off running 9 and 10 cars into Cornwall because ultimately, GWRs plans are not going to change and they clearly have some hope about it. If it fails, fair enough.

Ianno87 · 25 Aug 2019

CharlesR said:
Cornwall off peak has lower leadings than the North Cotswold line at peak times (beyond Plymouth/Oxford) therefore needs the capacity. You are speaking to us as if Cornwall is the only place where during Christmas and Spring more people travel therefore more seats have to be available. Myself being based on the South Cotswold line I am more than happy with the fact that GWR are going to operate services off peak in 5 car formations and 9 car during the peak. Originally, you speak for a particular service. Now you say that only in November’s on certain days of the week that Cornwall will cope with a 5 car unit. I understand where you are coming from to an extent, but please realise that away from Cornwall there are other places which trains need to go and can be busy on other days of the week and certain times of the year. For example, the 1636 to Cheltenham this summer has been quiet beyond Reading as it’s the holidays and that runs in a 5 car formation. In fact, off peak services I have travelled on seem to be busier.

I think you need to just lay off running 9 and 10 cars into Cornwall because ultimately, GWRs plans are not going to change and they clearly have some hope about it. If it fails, fair enough.

And demand can ultimately managed by, for example, tailoring the number of Advance fares sold.

AJW12 · 25 Aug 2019

Sometimes I wonder what the staffing will be like when the new timetable happens - I know it's still a number of months away but every single weekend GWR cancel trains due to "a shortage of train crew" which I assume is always drivers. Sometimes even at the weekdays too. I think today was one of the worst. Today:

Cancellations (from Paddington)

08:05 to Penzance
08:37 to Cheltenham Spa
09:07 to Bedwyn (cancelled to Reading)
10:37 to Cheltenham Spa
11:07 to Bedwyn (cancelled to Reading)
11:42 to Paignton
12:37 to Cheltenham Spa
13:07 to Bedwyn (cancelled to Reading)
14:15 to Bristol
14:42 to Cheltenham Spa
14:49 to Hereford
15:03 to Penzance
15:07 to Bedwyn (cancelled to Reading)
15:37 to Bristol
15:49 to Worcester (cancelled to Reading)
16:03 to Plymouth
16:37 to Bristol
16:42 to Cheltenham Spa
17:07 to Bedwyn (cancelled to Reading)
17:15 to Bristol
17:37 to Weston SM
17:45 to Swansea (cancelled to Reading)
18:03 to Penzance (cancelled to Plymouth)
18:37 to Bristol
19:07 to Bedwyn (cancelled to Reading)
19:37 to Bristol
20:37 to Cheltenham Spa

That's 19 cancellations (excluding the ones that started at Reading) which is a pretty dreadful show. If you wanted to travel to Cheltenham Spa, for example - 6 out of 7 trains cancelled. Bristol? between 3pm and 6pm, 4 out of 6 trains cancelled. Really bad. Maybe there was a specific reason but as a fairly regular GWR weekend passenger it makes me a bit nervous come December that this problem is going to get worse....

irish_rail · 25 Aug 2019

AJW12 said:
Sometimes I wonder what the staffing will be like when the new timetable happens - I know it's still a number of months away but every single weekend GWR cancel trains due to "a shortage of train crew" which I assume is always drivers. Sometimes even at the weekdays too. I think today was one of the worst. Today:

Cancellations (from Paddington)

08:05 to Penzance

08:37 to Cheltenham Spa

09:07 to Bedwyn (cancelled to Reading)

10:37 to Cheltenham Spa

11:07 to Bedwyn (cancelled to Reading)

11:42 to Paignton

12:37 to Cheltenham Spa

13:07 to Bedwyn (cancelled to Reading)

14:15 to Bristol

14:42 to Cheltenham Spa

14:49 to Hereford

15:03 to Penzance

15:07 to Bedwyn (cancelled to Reading)

15:37 to Bristol

15:49 to Worcester (cancelled to Reading)

16:03 to Plymouth

16:37 to Bristol

16:42 to Cheltenham Spa

17:07 to Bedwyn (cancelled to Reading)

17:15 to Bristol

17:37 to Weston SM

17:45 to Swansea (cancelled to Reading)

18:03 to Penzance (cancelled to Plymouth)

18:37 to Bristol

19:07 to Bedwyn (cancelled to Reading)

19:37 to Bristol

20:37 to Cheltenham Spa

That's 19 cancellations (excluding the ones that started at Reading) which is a pretty dreadful show. If you wanted to travel to Cheltenham Spa, for example - 6 out of 7 trains cancelled. Bristol? between 3pm and 6pm, 4 out of 6 trains cancelled. Really bad. Maybe there was a specific reason but as a fairly regular GWR weekend passenger it makes me a bit nervous come December that this problem is going to get worse....

A hot sunny bank holiday weekend isn't exactly a regular occurrence I'd say it's more like a once a year or so event. Still not ideal tho.

TommyJ · 25 Aug 2019

irish_rail said:
A hot sunny bank holiday weekend isn't exactly a regular occurrence I'd say it's more like a once a year or so event. Still not ideal tho.

Is the reason for the staff shortages that it relies on voluntary overtime and if the weather is hot drivers choose not to work then?

downmain · 25 Aug 2019

Sundays Paddington-Cheltenham Spa service is a disgrace again..A lot of staff in dispatch/ticket offices/gateline now go n/a for Sundays GWR need to resolve the situation a.s.a.p. and not make the same tired old excuses .. They may well end up with a December timetable change which turns into a farce

AJW12 · 25 Aug 2019

Without going too much into this on this thread, I worry if there's just a general shortage of train drivers at the moment - slightly worrying as the country is in the midst of a massive upgrade to services and an increase in trains.

This list is probably not exhaustive, but the operators I know who have had cancellations due to a lack of drivers over the past few months:

Northern
TPE
LNER (this weekend)
GWR
SWR
Great Northern
Thameslink
TFL - all the time

There's probably more. It seems like a real problem that only going to get worse with more and more services to run; particularly if what a lot of people are saying is true and weekends are reliant on driver overtime.

PHILIPE · 25 Aug 2019

There is a thread here bout the GWR cancellations and the general Sunday position here:-

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/xc-and-gwr-train-crew-shortages.189879/

jimm · 26 Aug 2019

irish_rail said:
I'm absolutely prepared to see if things change as Clarence yard has pointed out there will be timetable changes at that time of day. But i stand by the fact that at present that train can not be a 5 car other than perhaps Tue Wed and Thur in November January and February perhaps.
I also worry about Christmas and Easter, when the 9 cars will be needed in Cornwall however I fear they will not be seen but time will tell.
As someone who has used the Cotswold line many times I stand by the fact off peak nothing at all need be 9 car beyond oxford. I also don't think it is unreasonable to be coupling 5 car sets at oxford due to the proximity of the sidings and if the coupling and uncoupling is as reliable as you and Clarence yard have claimed.

You are prepared to see if things change, are you? Then get back to us in a year's time when the revised timetable - and the increase in seating capacity that it will bring through Cornwall - has actually been put to the test in the real world, through the quietest and busiest periods of the year. And spare us any more of the fiction about how nine-car IETs will be used on off-peak services elsewhere.

irish_rail · 26 Aug 2019

jimm said:
You are prepared to see if things change, are you? Then get back to us in a year's time when the revised timetable - and the increase in seating capacity that it will bring through Cornwall - has actually been put to the test in the real world, through the quietest and busiest periods of the year. And spare us any more of the fiction about how nine-car IETs will be used on off-peak services elsewhere.

Ok well we will see jimm, but funnily enough i think you will find even management are a little less confident about the likelihood of the December timetable change being a success. " the next northern rail fiasco" . Time will tell.

CharlesR · 26 Aug 2019

irish_rail said:
Ok well we will see jimm, but funnily enough i think you will find even management are a little less confident about the likelihood of the December timetable change being a success. " the next northern rail fiasco" . Time will tell.

Same thing your union rep said? So is your union rep management?

Clarence Yard · 26 Aug 2019

IR, if your management think the December timetable isn’t going to be a success and are saying so to all and sundry, then perhaps they are in the wrong job?

Times change, services change and if people aren’t up for it, then they become part of the problem, not the solution.

JN114 · 27 Aug 2019

Clarence Yard said:
IR, if your management think the December timetable isn’t going to be a success and are saying so to all and sundry, then perhaps they are in the wrong job?

Times change, services change and if people aren’t up for it, then they become part of the problem, not the solution.

Hear hear

DaveHarries · 27 Aug 2019

Clarence Yard said:
IR, if your management think the December timetable isn’t going to be a success and are saying so to all and sundry, then perhaps they are in the wrong job?

Times change, services change and if people aren’t up for it, then they become part of the problem, not the solution.

From what I have seen so far on RTT and OTT I am happy with the changes.

Dave

irish_rail · 27 Aug 2019

CharlesR said:
Same thing your union rep said? So is your union rep management?

He got that FROM management

irish_rail · 27 Aug 2019

Clarence Yard said:
IR, if your management think the December timetable isn’t going to be a success and are saying so to all and sundry, then perhaps they are in the wrong job?

Times change, services change and if people aren’t up for it, then they become part of the problem, not the solution.

I think everyone is trying their best, management and staff alike, it's just those on the ground, and too be fair most management as well, see the impact of even slight disruption now, and realise that just because a timetable looks great on paper, doesn't mean it will work well in reality.

Mintona · 27 Aug 2019

I’m looking forward to the new timetable. I do have some concerns over some crewing levels (particularly on Sundays), it’ll be interesting to see how it all fits together in practice.

83G/84D · 27 Aug 2019

Saturday timetable on the Falmouth branch is changed with the result that the last service from Truro departs later at 2242 and returns from Falmouth at 2310.

83G/84D · 27 Aug 2019

Interesting to see the workings on weekday mornings at Exeter St David's. 0534 Plymouth to Paddington arrives at 0639 followed 4 minutes later by the 0547 Plymouth to Paddington which then departs ahead of the first arrival. Makes sense as the 0547 ex Plymouth is Taunton - Reading - Paddington whilst the train it overtakes at Exeter makes several extra stops. Just rather unusual for it to happen at Exeter, seem to recall a similar timetabled event taking place at Taunton in the past.
I can see people getting on the first arrival then seeing the second one arriving and transferring over the platform to that one causing a delay.

800002 · 27 Aug 2019

83G/84D said:
Interesting to see the workings on weekday mornings at Exeter St David's. 0534 Plymouth to Paddington arrives at 0639 followed 4 minutes later by the 0547 Plymouth to Paddington which then departs ahead of the first arrival. Makes sense as the 0547 ex Plymouth is Taunton - Reading - Paddington whilst the train it overtakes at Exeter makes several extra stops. Just rather unusual for it to happen at Exeter, seem to recall a similar timetabled event taking place at Taunton in the past.
I can see people getting on the first arrival then seeing the second one arriving and transferring over the platform to that one causing a delay.

Also, after looking, the 1A72 (0534 PLY - PAD) is acting as a stopping service prior to Exeter SD, at Ivybridge; Totness; Teignmouth; and Dawlish - with a conection time at Exeter SD of 7 (public) minutes to transfer onto the 1A71 (0547 PLY - PAD) . In reality, it's 6 as the PB arrival on 1A72 is -1 at 0638 (working 0639). With the minimum being 6 minutes:- http://www.brtimes.com/#!board?stn=EXD&show=info&date=20190827

It's saves 20 minutes from the stations listed above.

Would this mean that Journey Planners produce itenaries with the change at Exeter SD?
If the Public Offset was moved to show +1, then the connection wouldn't be valid.

SWTrainspottin · 27 Aug 2019

I've noticed there's no changes to the timetable for the Newquay branch - why is this?

CharlesR · 27 Aug 2019

SWTrainspottin said:
I've noticed there's no changes to the timetable for the Newquay branch - why is this?

Because it at present doesn’t justify an increased service and wasn’t apart of the franchise agreement.

If you mean that there are no retimings then that’s because the it operationally suits the new timetable.

SWTrainspottin · 28 Aug 2019

CharlesR said:
Because it at present doesn’t justify an increased service and wasn’t apart of the franchise agreement.

If you mean that there are no retimings then that’s because the it operationally suits the new timetable.

Shame really... As a local, I don't mind the service gaps as much as the fact that the first train doesn't depart from Newquay on a weekday until 10:13. During the winter timetable, there is an earlier 07:47 service which would be a lot more useful on weekdays I think.

barrow trains · 29 Aug 2019

Anyone know if there'll be any changes to request stops, such as changing stations to/from the status?

Such as my local, Umberleigh, trains almost always stop due to people wanting to get on/off. I do often travel to/from Barnstaple, only skipping Umberleigh once!

Deepgreen · 31 Aug 2019

No changes/improvements for the North Downs Line yet again - or at least the route is not even mentioned in the GWR blurb about the December 2019 changes. Every complaint I've sent to GWR about the route for some time now has been met with assurances that everything will be better once "the new timetable" (dating back a few years!) comes in, with 769s being used, etc. My scepticism at these claims seems well founded, unfortunately. The 3tph concept seems dead, and the 769 programme almost so.

Deepgreen · 31 Aug 2019

SWTrainspottin said:
Shame really... As a local, I don't mind the service gaps as much as the fact that the first train doesn't depart from Newquay on a weekday until 10:13. During the winter timetable, there is an earlier 07:47 service which would be a lot more useful on weekdays I think.

That's staggeringly bad! It seems to assume that summer use is entirely tourist-based with no local demand for peak trains at all (although surely some tourists want to start their return journey far earlier than 1013?!), while winter use does have a local focus. On the face of it, that seems odd.

RichT54 · 31 Aug 2019

Deepgreen said:
No changes/improvements for the North Downs Line yet again - or at least the route is not even mentioned in the GWR blurb about the December 2019 changes. Every complaint I've sent to GWR about the route for some time now has been met with assurances that everything will be better once "the new timetable" (dating back a few years!) comes in, with 769s being used, etc. My scepticism at these claims seems well founded, unfortunately. The 3tph concept seems dead, and the 769 programme almost so.

I've been looking on Realtime Trains to see what changes there will be for my local station Sandhurst. I have noticed that it shows three less trains to Reading than the current weekday timetable. I can't see any services corresponding to the current 08:41, 10:13 or 23:23.

How accurate is Realtime Trains likely to be, this far in advance, for the December 2019 timetable?

GWR Dec 19 timetable

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