Why do people object to paying for public toilets, car parks etc.?

yorksrob · 27 Aug 2019

DarloRich said:
i was thinking of the platform side ones.

I'm not aware that they've ever charged for those ones, and yes, they've always been the worst of them.

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AM9 · 27 Aug 2019

Calthrop said:
A friend of mine totally refuses on principle ever to pay, in any way or shape, for parking; or for relieving himself. His view on the "parking" matter is, "I pay my road tax so that I can travel from place to place; not so that I can stop and not travel". Most people who know this chap -- myself included -- do regard him as pathologically mean about almost all of life's activities.

If he actually say what you have posted, then he's pretty ignorant as well. There is a sub-class of motorists that regularly spits out: "I opoay my road tax ..." which is a lie. Nobody pays a 'road tax', - it was withdrawn in 1937. The public highway is funded from general taxation, so in effect not only those who have income to be taxed, but also with our impoverished UK public services, the constraints on public funds prevent many who are not liable for tax even getting essential services that they are entitled to. As far a the 'tax' on some road vehicles is concerned, Vehicle Exise Duty is a charge broadly based on the potential that a vehicle has for pollution. Dealing with the damage that vehicles cause would otherwise fall totally on the overstretched general taxation sources.

ashkeba · 27 Aug 2019

Harpers Tate said:
If we assume that
- most people have access to a car,
- and most will prefer to use it for one reason or another,
- and no government has the will to spend on encouraging modal shift by subsidy and/or penal taxes on motoring
If such people are going shopping or eating out etc., will they choose to
a) visit a local town centre, where parking and toilets are chargeable (even if fairly nominal) or
b) visit the nearby mall where parking and toilets are both plentiful and free to use
which do you suppose they will choose?
Why are town centres dying? Is it the internet to blame?

Yes the internet is to blame because it allows memes like the above to spread. A rational person would visit a local town centre by train because then I do not have to waste my time driving, I do not pollute the local town as much, the train ticket is less than the true cost of driving and I can drink whatever drinks I like with my meal or entertainment without worrying about killing someone else on my way home because they were alcoholic.

The government is also to blame because it is clearly not taxing the malls enough for the land if they can subsidise the huge parking lots from sales without anyone noticing!

radamfi · 27 Aug 2019

Some other prosperous countries haven't really gone in for out of town shopping anywhere near as much as the UK. Although out of town stores have been caught up in the general decline in retail and many younger people are now choosing urban rather than suburban lifestyles, hence the growth in Tesco Express type stores.

Calthrop · 27 Aug 2019

py_megapixel said:
So by that logic, when he's stopped (i.e. in a carpark) it's reasonable to pay???

This friend of mine is an assiduous user of logic; but I suspect that he learnt the subject from Lewis Carroll.

radamfi · 27 Aug 2019

underbank said:
For me, it's not actually having a convenient bus service rather than the quality. It takes my son 2 hours to get to school in a morning and that's just a 5 mile journey into the city centre. Whilst there are buses every 5 minutes along some routes, other routes get one bus per hour during peak times and are stupidly full. The buses are absolutely brilliant if you live/work on particular corridors, but woeful if you don't. It seems that someone planned out the routes decades ago and they havn't been updated to account for new developments. If you are, say, retired, and have all the time in the world, then you're fine, but if you have somewhere to go, for a specified time, i.e. school or work, you basically have to go by car. My son did work experience over Summer in a city centre office and still spent 2 hours getting there. The later bus doesn't get into the city bus station until 9.05 which is too late for schools/offices - the earlier bus gets there for 8.05 which is too early! He had the opportunity of paid Summer work in another office but it was in an out of town business park which has been there for over a decade but still doesn't have a single bus route near it, so he couldn't accept that place. Outside London and some other major cities, public transport isn't fit for purpose and until that's dealt with, there'll be no reduction in private car use.

There is definitely scope for improving public transport, but there is a limit to what is possible. Even in the countries with the best public transport, most trips are still quicker by car than by public transport. At some point there has to be personal responsibility.

PeterC · 27 Aug 2019

ashkeba said:
Yes the internet is to blame because it allows memes like the above to spread. A rational person would visit a local town centre by train because then I do not have to waste my time driving, I do not pollute the local town as much, the train ticket is less than the true cost of driving and I can drink whatever drinks I like with my meal or entertainment without worrying about killing someone else on my way home because they were alcoholic.

The government is also to blame because it is clearly not taxing the malls enough for the land if they can subsidise the huge parking lots from sales without anyone noticing!

Interesting idea, using the train. Drive to railhead passing the town centre car parks in the process, pay £4 for all day station parking rather than 70p for an hour in the council car park, then realise that I don't need the train after all as the nearest railhead is in the town center anyway.

Harpers Tate · 27 Aug 2019

With the greatest respect to the nay-sayers and doubters, the fact of the matter is that (hereabouts, as an example) Meadowhall and Parkgate are both far busier than Rotherham any time, any day - the former two with free parking and, at Meadowhall, public toilets, and the latter with 2 hour restrictions on free parking and inadequate provision, and anything longer chargeable; and pay toilets.

And please don't try to convince me that the true cost of motoring is greater than public transport fares. The minute there are two of you traveling together that is a long way from being true. And in any case, public transport provision here is so dismal in places that one isn't far away from needing a car at one's disposal for some journeys and/or at some times of day, so including fixed costs in any calculation is flawed since we already have the car and have paid its taxes. Hence it is only marginal costs that count; fuel, wear & tear, depreciation from mileage, etc.

ashkeba · 27 Aug 2019

Harpers Tate said:
And please don't try to convince me that the true cost of motoring is greater than public transport fares. The minute there are two of you traveling together that is a long way from being true.

The minute there are two of you traveling together you can get a third off off-peak in exchange for an annual subscription. Three or more you get a discount without any subscription.

And in any case, public transport provision here is so dismal in places that one isn't far away from needing a car at one's disposal for some journeys and/or at some times of day, so including fixed costs in any calculation is flawed since we already have the car and have paid its taxes. Hence it is only marginal costs that count; fuel, wear & tear, depreciation from mileage, etc.

Rotherham sounds like poo then, if you will excuse the topical reference!

I am sorry for people who live in places where the only rail station is in the nearest town. Maybe Doctor Beeching is partly responsible for the slow death of town centres choked by cars then?

mmh · 27 Aug 2019

ashkeba said:
The minute there are two of you traveling together you can get a third off off-peak in exchange for an annual subscription. Three or more you get a discount without any subscription.

Neither of these options are promoted anywhere near well enough.

ashkeba said:
I am sorry for people who live in places where the only rail station is in the nearest town. Maybe Doctor Beeching is partly responsible for the slow death of town centres choked by cars then?

I know this is a rail forum, but it's worth remembering that most people rarely or never use trains and much of the county is nowhere near a railway station.

edwin_m · 27 Aug 2019

mmh said:
s a rail forum, but it's worth remembering that most people rarely or never use trains and much of the county is nowhere near a railway station.

Indeed, for almost everyone choosing between a retail park and a town centre the available public transport option (if any at all) will be a bus.

Harpers Tate said:
With the greatest respect to the nay-sayers and doubters, the fact of the matter is that (hereabouts, as an example) Meadowhall and Parkgate are both far busier than Rotherham any time, any day - the former two with free parking and, at Meadowhall, public toilets, and the latter with 2 hour restrictions on free parking and inadequate provision, and anything longer chargeable; and pay toilets.

But if there is free parking for two hours then most people won't have to pay to park for a quick trip into Rotherham. More a case of success breeding success I think, that Meadowhall has enough high-quality* shopping and entertainment to attract people from far and wide, who spend enough money that the centre operator can provide the parking and toilets.

At least Meadowhall has some decent public transport, I see lots of people on the trains going there and I assume the trams and buses are pretty busy too. Because of its "regional" role and railway station this is one of the few places where my comment above about buses doesn't apply. Parkgate has the tram-train although I've no idea what proportion of visitors get there by public transport.

*Debatable, but obviously regarded as such by the people that go there.

Calthrop · 27 Aug 2019

AM9 said:
If he actually say what you have posted, then he's pretty ignorant as well. There is a sub-class of motorists that regularly spits out: "I opoay my road tax ..." which is a lie. Nobody pays a 'road tax', - it was withdrawn in 1937. The public highway is funded from general taxation, so in effect not only those who have income to be taxed, but also with our impoverished UK public services, the constraints on public funds prevent many who are not liable for tax even getting essential services that they are entitled to. As far a the 'tax' on some road vehicles is concerned, Vehicle Exise Duty is a charge broadly based on the potential that a vehicle has for pollution. Dealing with the damage that vehicles cause would otherwise fall totally on the overstretched general taxation sources.

Didn't see this one before -- I don't drive, and don't as a rule pay much attention to motoring doings; probably should have left this thread alone. I put, what I think I've heard him say, not very long ago; but I might have things wrong here. An extremely important factor in this chap's life is that he hates having to part with money for most conceivable purposes, for which people part with it.

Harpers Tate · 28 Aug 2019

ashkeba said:
The minute there are two of you traveling together you can get a third off off-peak in exchange for an annual subscription. Three or more you get a discount without any subscription.

A discount that still doesn't bring the cost to anything approaching marginal driving cost.

Put it this way: if I suddenly and at short notice decide the weather is nice enough for a day trip to Scarborough am I going to
a) spend £85 (cheapest walk-up day round trip fare, two adults, one railcard); best trip time 2h 45 one way, 3h 15 the other, including walking - with no promise of a seat; no promise of a window or legroom even if you do get a seat; no promise of being seated together; and even less promise of room for our two bicycles (hence the walking) or
b) spend somewhere between £0 (in my EV) and, say £25 (in a typical fossil car) on fuel, two hours trip time both ways (no walking), with comfortable seating with legroom and windows, and room for our two bikes - bearing in mind that, as do the vast majority, I already have my car so tax, depreciation and servicing costs are already committed. Even if you do account for such costs (RAC estimates on average about the same again as fuel) you still only get to £50 - 2/3 the train fare.

Do not compare "Advance Fares"; my car doesn't need me to plan my trip 12 weeks ahaead and commit to a precise itinerary.

No comparison between time, comfort price or anything else.

Harpers Tate · 28 Aug 2019

edwin_m said:
But if there is free parking for two hours then most people won't have to pay to park for a quick trip into Rotherham. ....

Right, but it's too late. With this move they are trying (but failing, I suspect) to revert the high street death syndrome that began
(a) when parking was all chargeable and
(b) the out of town malls arrived.
People and shops left in droves. My guess is - precisely because of parking (and maybe toilets). Which is where this thread started.
I doubt they will ever return.

They did, for a while, draw me with free electric vehicle charging but that too has now gone in favour of something that costs almost three times what I pay at home. Won't be going there, then. I'll be going to a mall, where it's still free. (See what I mean? Small amounts of money having huge psychological impact on enough people to make a difference).

underbank · 28 Aug 2019

The other issue with High Streets & town centres is that people used to live and work in them, so there was a captive audience for the shops.

Nowadays, people generally don't, so you have to make a special effort to go into town, which can either be the pain of the congested roads and expensive car parks, or the pain, cost and inconvenience of public transport - no wonder people don't bother and go online or to the retail park instead.

Our town centre used to have all kinds of employment - lots of offices, banks, GP surgeries, pharmacies, vets, a brewery, a couple of cinemas/theatres, a small hospital, the local newspaper print works, numerous shops, various light industry, warehouses, etc etc. Now it's basically just a few random shops, the odd cafe/coffee shop, charity shops, betting shops, etc. All the "decent" employment has gone. That's left a vacuum which is filled largely by undesirables.

The demise of the "High St" is a lot more than internet shopping and out of town retail parks - it's also the centralisation of top jobs into a few major cities (the big employers having closed down regional/local offices), and the movement away from town centres of other businesses and amenities - even the main GP surgery has centralised and moved out of the town centre area!

edwin_m · 28 Aug 2019

underbank said:
The other issue with High Streets & town centres is that people used to live and work in them, so there was a captive audience for the shops.

Nowadays, people generally don't, so you have to make a special effort to go into town, which can either be the pain of the congested roads and expensive car parks, or the pain, cost and inconvenience of public transport - no wonder people don't bother and go online or to the retail park instead.

Our town centre used to have all kinds of employment - lots of offices, banks, GP surgeries, pharmacies, vets, a brewery, a couple of cinemas/theatres, a small hospital, the local newspaper print works, numerous shops, various light industry, warehouses, etc etc. Now it's basically just a few random shops, the odd cafe/coffee shop, charity shops, betting shops, etc. All the "decent" employment has gone. That's left a vacuum which is filled largely by undesirables.

The demise of the "High St" is a lot more than internet shopping and out of town retail parks - it's also the centralisation of top jobs into a few major cities (the big employers having closed down regional/local offices), and the movement away from town centres of other businesses and amenities - even the main GP surgery has centralised and moved out of the town centre area!

This post on Citymetric agrees with you and I think I do too. https://www.citymetric.com/business/boost-high-street-cities-should-invest-offices-4240

When developing the city’s property offer, the aim should be to get jobs back into the city centre while reducing the dominance of retail space. For councils who have invested in existing retail space and shopping centres, in particular, the temptation may be to try and retain their existing use, with new retail strategies designed to reduce vacancies.

But as the Centre for Cities’ recent Building Blocks report illustrates, the evidence points to this being a dead-end. Instead, cities may need to convert the properties they own so they house a more diverse group of businesses.

Workers are also probably more likely than shoppers to get public transport to a city centre, so the parking issue becomes less significant. And offices provide toilets for their workers so that becomes less of an issue too.

Tetchytyke · 28 Aug 2019

ashkeba said:
The minute there are two of you traveling together you can get a third off off-peak in exchange for an annual subscription. Three or more you get a discount without any subscription.

...in some areas, some of the time. Not everywhere does GroupSave and TwoTogether is only any use if you always travel with the same second person.

ashkeba said:
A rational person would visit a local town centre by train because then I do not have to waste my time driving, I do not pollute the local town as much, the train ticket is less than the true cost of driving and I can drink whatever drinks I like with my meal or entertainment without worrying about killing someone else on my way home because they were alcoholic.

I'm a rational person and I drive into the city centre. The Metro is £5 per adult- no group discount- and is extremely unreliable. If I drive I can leave when I want to leave, and I don't have to wait on an underground platform for a train which is heavily delayed and overcrowded. If I drive I don't have to deal with the swearing kids and the stinking potheads and drunks, I don't have to get out of my local suburban station in a lift that stinks of pee and has had a broken alarm button for as long as I have lived here, and as I'm usually with the baby I won't have to fight on a train with a pram and I won't be drinking anyway.

And when I don't want to pay for parking in central Newcastle I can go to the Gateshead MetroCentre, where I can leave my car in a covered car park for free and walk into the shops without getting wet.

I'm a big supporter of public transport and yet I won't use it because it is so expensive and so appallingly bad. And it'll take me a lot to tempt me back, except when I'm out with the lads for a few jars.

Bevan Price · 28 Aug 2019

Free public toilets were provided, at least in part, as a method to improve public hygiene, i.e. to encourage people not to "pee" in unsuitable locations. Sadly. many councils have closed most of their public toilets, and/or charge for those that remain - or their replacements (often of "portaloo standard.) Then the dimwitted councillors responsible for these changes often wonder why there has been an increase in urinating in "back streets", "behind trees in parks", etc.
As for parking - I don't mind a reasonable charge, but there are far too many rip-off charges -- and cowboy enforcers who pounce on anyone who is a minute late getting back to their car.
As an example of rip-off, I would nominate Runcorn station, with a midweek charge of £12 per day. I wonder how many more people might use trains to Liverpool if parking was more reasonable ???

hexagon789 · 28 Aug 2019

py_megapixel said:
I do not understand why there are so many people who describe payment for toilets as a pointless ripoff.

In the UK, where it is uncommon to pay for toilets, they are usually outdated, poorly maintained and infrequently cleaned.
In Germany, Belgium, France and presumably other European countries, where pay-toilets are typical, they tend to be clean and pleasant to use.
If you go to the toilet at home or in a café/shop, you are still paying for the toilets, either through the need to purchase toilet roll, soap etc., or through the cost of the goods from the business.
Those with medical conditions requiring them quick/frequent access to toilets should be given RADAR keys to allow them access to the accessible toilets, which tend not to be charged for.

The same attitude exists towards paying for parking. People ask why owning a car does not give them free access to a piece of land to put it on. The upkeep of the land costs money.
There are other examples of this kind of thing. For instance, buying a speaker does not give me free access to music to play on it.

Yes, some disability sufferers require a car, but parking could be free for disabled badge holders but paid-for for others.

I would be interested to hear other users' opinions on this matter.

Car parking I have no issue over charging with, there are generally alteratives to taking the car.

Going to the toilet though is a basic human requirement which I don't think should be charged for.

Indeed, I wish continental railways would follow the example of Network Rail and abolish charging.

Starmill · 28 Aug 2019

I have an idea. Why don't we tax car parking at the national level? £1 duty for every time one parks one's car? From the proceeds, we can set up a fund that provides clean, modern public toilets for all.

The complete absence of toilet facilities from many public locations in the UK, paid or otherwise, is a scandal. It causes inequality, discriminates against women and some disabled people and excludes some people from public spaces.

Starmill · 28 Aug 2019

IanD said:
My car has damaged no-one.

Even for this forum, this statement is hilariously detached from reality!

Mag_seven · 29 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
I have an idea. Why don't we tax car parking at the national level? £1 duty for every time one parks one's car? From the proceeds, we can set up a fund that provides clean, modern public toilets for all.

It can be called the "P" charge

(I'll get my coat)

yorksrob · 29 Aug 2019

Arctic Troll said:
...in some areas, some of the time. Not everywhere does GroupSave and TwoTogether is only any use if you always travel with the same second person.

I'm a rational person and I drive into the city centre. The Metro is £5 per adult- no group discount- and is extremely unreliable. If I drive I can leave when I want to leave, and I don't have to wait on an underground platform for a train which is heavily delayed and overcrowded. If I drive I don't have to deal with the swearing kids and the stinking potheads and drunks, I don't have to get out of my local suburban station in a lift that stinks of pee and has had a broken alarm button for as long as I have lived here, and as I'm usually with the baby I won't have to fight on a train with a pram and I won't be drinking anyway.

And when I don't want to pay for parking in central Newcastle I can go to the Gateshead MetroCentre, where I can leave my car in a covered car park for free and walk into the shops without getting wet.

I'm a big supporter of public transport and yet I won't use it because it is so expensive and so appallingly bad. And it'll take me a lot to tempt me back, except when I'm out with the lads for a few jars.

It's notable that many areas which don't have access to the Network Card also don't have access to groupsave. Neither Northern nor TPE do it.

py_megapixel · 29 Aug 2019

yorksrob said:
It's notable that many areas which don't have access to the Network Card also don't have access to groupsave. Neither Northern nor TPE do it.

Northern do have Duo fares thought (25% discount on off-peak returns for two passengers travelling together). It doesn't require a subscription but it's smaller discount than railcards.

yorksrob · 29 Aug 2019

py_megapixel said:
Northern do have Duo fares thought (25% discount on off-peak returns for two passengers travelling together). It doesn't require a subscription but it's smaller discount than railcards.

Duo is only available for an extremely limited set of station pairings. Whenever I've been contemplating a day out with friends, the necessary journey opportunities haven't been included.

It's no substitute I'm afraid.

ashkeba · 29 Aug 2019

Arctic Troll said:
I'm a rational person and I drive into the city centre. The Metro is £5 per adult- no group discount- and is extremely unreliable.

There are exceptions For any general rule.

And there are myths and legends like

If I drive I can leave when I want to leave,

Which is only true if few others want to leave when you do and none of them have crashed again.

Or someone said about not having to plan ahead with a car. I have to book mine in for testing and engineering work and buy loads of stuff for it. That all feels like having to plan ahead and for something which rarely amakes sense to use! I mainy use it for moving large ovjects. If there was a decent car hire or sharing scheme, I think I would not have it.

ashkeba · 29 Aug 2019

yorksrob said:
Duo is only available for an extremely limited set of station pairings. Whenever I've been contemplating a day out with friends, the necessary journey opportunities haven't been included.

It's no substitute I'm afraid.

Buses in some places have Duo too. These tickets should be national. So should groupsave and discount cards. It would help some people stop using pollutey cars so much.

Another good change to start by funding from a parking tax.

433N · 29 Aug 2019

Starmill said:
The complete absence of toilet facilities from many public locations in the UK, paid or otherwise, is a scandal. It causes inequality, discriminates against women and some disabled people and excludes some people from public spaces.

Quite.

I don't really have an objection to paying a nominal charge for public toilets but not the euro/quid at many European railway stations ... that is not nominal.

Basic question : Where are homeless people supposed to toilet ?

If councils are not providing public toilets, why is it not a legal requirement for medium/large retail spaces to provide them - is Mike Ashley that short of money ?

As someone with Inflammatory Bowel Disease, I am only too aware of the paucity of public toilet facilities. Personally, it doesn't affect me too much most of the time but imagine you are in the middle of a retail space and you suddenly and unexpectedly need the toilet after eating something dodgy. For many people with IBD, this is what life is like every day. If there are no public toilets, it is very easy to become imprisoned in your own home. Paying for public toilets becomes a tax on top of having a particularly nasty medical condition.

Yes, I have a Radar key (should there be suitable facilities) and I have a 'Can't Wait' card from Crohns and Colitis UK which politely asks if I can use toilet facilities (increasingly met with the answer 'No' these days, I hear). However, I'd generally prefer to pay a small charge rather than be frowned at for using Disabled Toilet facilities, if there were actually any to use. I can think of one large retail outlet facility in the Edinburgh area where there is no convenient (sic) access to toilets at all which is disgraceful.

underbank · 29 Aug 2019

433N said:
why is it not a legal requirement for medium/large retail spaces to provide them

Plenty of large stores, shopping centres, car parks, etc DO provide free toilets. I never really thought about it much when I was younger, but we had a child late in life and suddenly had to start planning shopping trips etc around public toilets where, firstly, we could change him, and then as he grew up, he'd need the loo at short notice (as children do). So we quickly learned which shops generally had toilets, and where the public ones were in the shopping centres/retail parks we used. There were VERY few major shops/major shopping areas without toilets. Our nearest/local pathetically small High Street and shopping centre had no toilets, so we simply stopped shopping there!

If we were away from our usual haunts, we'd just be observant and on the look out for loos whether we needed them or not (as we never knew when our son would decide he needed one!). Shops like Boots, M&S, Debenham, Matalan, most shopping centres, and most DIY sheds have customer toilets.

There may not be a legal requirement, but bigger shops provide them as a customer service.

Now we're older and it's us that need the loo more often and regularly, and that habit of observation (as we're walking around) and memory (of chains etc that usually have loos) has served us very well indeed.

Bletchleyite · 29 Aug 2019

Funny you mention DIY sheds. I went into Homebase a couple of days ago with the use of the facilities being the only aim

Why do people object to paying for public toilets, car parks etc.?

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