Taxis in bus lanes

scosutsut · 28 Aug 2019

Starting a new thread for this so I don't take another off topic!

I find it questionable that taxis are deemed the same as buses, and allowed to use bus lanes to skip the traffic etc and not like private cars which in my mind are what they act as - chauffeur driven ones!

My analysis is:

Bus travel - you join a public vehicle, that follows a fixed route not of your choosing, at times you don't get to pick, and will take you to where it goes - be that your destination or somewhere close by so you can make the rest of your way yourself.

Taxi travel - a vehicle private at time of use to you and those that you allow to accompany you picks you up at your request and take you exactly where you want to go as you please.

Personal car ownership - a vehicle private to you and those those who accompany you which is available for you to use to go to and from where you wish as you please.

Taxi transportation has literally all of the benefits of personal car ownership plus a person to drive it for you.

Apart from say when transporting the disabled do they deserve the special treatment they are given nationwide?

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6Gman · 28 Aug 2019

Still public transport however.

scosutsut · 28 Aug 2019

6Gman said:
Still public transport however.

That they are, also referred to as private hire though which is a more accurate description of the benefit to patrons thereof.

Perhaps my argument is better phrased as "taxis should not be considered public transport, nor receive the benefits thereof"

There is little to no environmental benefit to someone travelling in a taxi over a private car.

Reclassify them as environmental lanes and allow only public service buses and cyclists perhaps?

bluenoxid · 28 Aug 2019

It depends on the type of Taxi. Hackney Carriages and Private Hire are two different things.

borage · 28 Aug 2019

In taxis’ defence: they don’t have to take up a parking space when you’re not using them, they should in theory be newer and lower-emissions than the average private car, and their availability makes not owning a car (using “real” public transport most of the time) more feasible.

On the other hand, I’m not a big fan, and I don’t think those points justify letting them use bus lanes.

6Gman · 28 Aug 2019

bluenoxid said:
It depends on the type of Taxi. Hackney Carriages and Private Hire are two different things.

I was about to make the same point. I assume the permission to use bus lanes is restricted to hackney carriages (i.e. taxis) and not private hire vehicles?

EM2 · 28 Aug 2019

A Hackney carriage is permitted to pick up a fare on the street. That means that they have to be able to pull in to the kerb. Bus lanes are generally alongside the kerb. Ergo, it is therefore necessary for Hackney carriages to be allowed to use bus lanes.

AlbertBeale · 28 Aug 2019

EM2 said:
A Hackney carriage is permitted to pick up a fare on the street. That means that they have to be able to pull in to the kerb. Bus lanes are generally alongside the kerb. Ergo, it is therefore necessary for Hackney carriages to be allowed to use bus lanes.

The properly regulated, CRB-checked, wheelchair-accessible, etc, etc, "black cabs" in London are an important part of the public transport system, though of course sometimes used by rich people in lieu of a chauffeur! It makes perfect sense for them to be in bus lanes. Many people with things to carry, or with mobility problems, need them - they're not a luxury for lots of their users.

On the other hand, the private hire / minicabs / uber etc are simply adding to the private car congestion in London and deserve - in my view - no benefits accorded to proper taxis. And as a daily cyclist in central London I can attest to the fact that the behaviour of many minicab drivers' is dangerous and criminal. I used to moan about cabs and buses in London, as a cyclist, but I now realise I was really lucky - the dangers I face every day now have gone up massively since the big increase in private hire vehicles in the last few years.

hst43102 · 28 Aug 2019

borage said:
They should in theory be newer and lower-emissions than the average private car

Certainly not newer in Northampton. Plenty of 2000-ish LTI taxis that give off clouds of exhaust and at least one M-reg MCW Metrocab.

carlberry · 28 Aug 2019

borage said:
In taxis’ defence: they don’t have to take up a parking space when you’re not using them, they should in theory be newer and lower-emissions than the average private car, and their availability makes not owning a car (using “real” public transport most of the time) more feasible.

On the other hand, I’m not a big fan, and I don’t think those points justify letting them use bus lanes.

Most are little better than private cars however private cars don't sit around in queues with their engine running waiting for fares and private cars are usually being used for a journey, taxis are often running empty so, environmentally, are far worse. They also usually take up at the same amount of road space per passenger journey as a private car.

bluenoxid · 28 Aug 2019

6Gman said:
I was about to make the same point. I assume the permission to use bus lanes is restricted to hackney carriages (i.e. taxis) and not private hire vehicles?

EM2 said:
A Hackney carriage is permitted to pick up a fare on the street. That means that they have to be able to pull in to the kerb. Bus lanes are generally alongside the kerb. Ergo, it is therefore necessary for Hackney carriages to be allowed to use bus lanes.

I understand that the TRO for the bus lane needs to specifically include Hackney Carriages. I understand that the vast majority do but some don’t.

takno · 28 Aug 2019

EM2 said:
A Hackney carriage is permitted to pick up a fare on the street. That means that they have to be able to pull in to the kerb. Bus lanes are generally alongside the kerb. Ergo, it is therefore necessary for Hackney carriages to be allowed to use bus lanes.

Ergo nothing. If them picking up in a bus lane is delaying buses then they need to be stopped from picking up in areas with bus lanes

Tom B · 28 Aug 2019

In which case make it a red route!

Taxis are arguably used far more efficiently than ever, thanks to apps such as Gett and Hailo which direct them to fares. Not sure how any M prefix taxis are still in service, my understanding is that the limit is 17 years.

Minicabs, as said, are unqualified and display some of the worst driving I've ever seen.

radamfi · 28 Aug 2019

In central London the sheer volume of black cabs can make bus lanes virtually useless at times.

Bletchleyite · 28 Aug 2019

AlbertBeale said:
The properly regulated, CRB-checked, wheelchair-accessible, etc, etc, "black cabs" in London are an important part of the public transport system, though of course sometimes used by rich people in lieu of a chauffeur! It makes perfect sense for them to be in bus lanes. Many people with things to carry, or with mobility problems, need them - they're not a luxury for lots of their users.

It really doesn't. They cause an obstruction to buses in central London all the time, delaying many passengers so their one passenger can take their time paying and getting out. There need to be "taxi stops" with a layby cut in out of the bus lane to prevent them doing so. Before you say that's a ridiculous idea, they have that concept in Singapore.

An Uber can cause far less of an obstruction because when you arrive you get out and that's that - no fare to settle, it is done automatically.

Bletchleyite · 28 Aug 2019

Tom B said:
In which case make it a red route!

All bus lanes need to be red routes at all times of operation. The UK simply doesn't get it - the bus must NEVER be obstructed, for any reason[1], ever. It must be allowed to move when it wishes, and not move when it wishes. If that is not taken seriously, the timetable will always be a work of fiction.

[1] One exception and one alone: emergency services attending a callout, obviously.

hexagon789 · 28 Aug 2019

takno said:
Ergo nothing. If them picking up in a bus lane is delaying buses then they need to be stopped from picking up in areas with bus lanes

I think that would be unworkable in a lot of cities. Perhaps some solution can be found though...

K4016td · 28 Aug 2019

Taxis on bus lanes can be justified as sometimes building bus lanes is just waste of money. There is one in Slough between Farnham Road and Bath Road junction which is currently used by two buses an hour (X74). However an earlier section of Farnham Road which is used by more buses (at least 10 per hour) is left without the bus lane in place. Where's the logic then?

AlbertBeale · 28 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It really doesn't. They cause an obstruction to buses in central London all the time, delaying many passengers so their one passenger can take their time paying and getting out.

I think calling taxis in bus lanes an obstruction doesn't make sense - what are called "bus lanes" are actually public transport lanes, and taxis are part of the public transport system. Many people in London rely on having taxis as part of the public transport mix. The person being slow to get out of a cab might be someone with mobility difficulties for whom the door-to-door service taxis can provide is essential for their ability to get around.

If virtually all the private cars (and most minicabs) were thrown out of London, there'd be room for us all (walkers, cycle users, bus users and taxi users; and I for one am all of those things at different times, though a taxi user only very very rarely) - whatever our varying mobility needs - to move around without too much delay. Attacking taxis is a red herring; far and away the main culprit in London, in terms of delaying (and endangering) people is the private car user. If we had a sensible car-free city, then we could see whether taxis were causing a problem, or whether there were too many of them, or whatever. But first things first.

In terms of Ubers and obstruction - Uber's own researches have shown that their presence in a city adds to congestion; they mostly don't remove private cars but get lazy people who'd otherwise walk or get a bus to take a trip in a car. The massive increase in congestion and danger caused by the recent introduction of Ubers is obvious to those of us who're out on central London's roads daily.

(NB - I now realise that although this Taxis in Bus Lanes thread is in the "Buses" category, there's already a Taxi thread in the Other Public Transport section.)

radamfi · 28 Aug 2019

AlbertBeale said:
In terms of Ubers and obstruction - Uber's own researches have shown that their presence in a city adds to congestion; they mostly don't remove private cars but get lazy people who'd otherwise walk or get a bus to take a trip in a car.

Same could be said for black cabs in central London. The difference is that black cabs are so numerous that you don't even need to get your phone out. There are a lot of rich people who use black cabs routinely, and now cabs accept credit cards passengers don't even need to carry around a wad of 20s.

radamfi · 28 Aug 2019

AlbertBeale said:
The person being slow to get out of a cab might be someone with mobility difficulties for whom the door-to-door service taxis can provide is essential for their ability to get around.

TfL provide a Dial-a-Ride service for those with disabilities.

AlbertBeale · 29 Aug 2019

radamfi said:
TfL provide a Dial-a-Ride service for those with disabilities.

This is very much a second-class service in many areas - and I'm not aware it's universally available anyway. Elderly people I know with major mobility problems have a card which allows them to call an ordinary taxi but pay a subsidised rate more akin to the cost of a bus ride. So they can travel with similar flexibility as other fitter people - which seems fair to me. (Though this service might depend on what borough you live in - I'm not sure.)

Non Multi · 29 Aug 2019

K4016td said:
Taxis on bus lanes can be justified as sometimes building bus lanes is just waste of money. There is one in Slough between Farnham Road and Bath Road junction which is currently used by two buses an hour (X74). However an earlier section of Farnham Road which is used by more buses (at least 10 per hour) is left without the bus lane in place. Where's the logic then?

The stretch of road with a bus lane was already wide enough for conversion to 3 lanes. The bus lane only at peak hours only. The X74 is a longer distance bus route, these are more vulnerable to being stuck in traffic jams. There's also the #13 and #583 that use the bus lane. It is also useful for emergency vehicles that often get held up at junctions.

richw · 29 Aug 2019

Tom B said:
In which case make it a red route!

Taxis are arguably used far more efficiently than ever, thanks to apps such as Gett and Hailo which direct them to fares. Not sure how any M prefix taxis are still in service, my understanding is that the limit is 17 years.

Minicabs, as said, are unqualified and display some of the worst driving I've ever seen.

Age limits vary between local authorities. Some don’t have them at all.

Bletchleyite · 29 Aug 2019

AlbertBeale said:
This is very much a second-class service in many areas - and I'm not aware it's universally available anyway. Elderly people I know with major mobility problems have a card which allows them to call an ordinary taxi but pay a subsidised rate more akin to the cost of a bus ride. So they can travel with similar flexibility as other fitter people - which seems fair to me. (Though this service might depend on what borough you live in - I'm not sure.)

So should we give such people a membership card which entitles the taxi driver to stop anywhere (which could be shown to Police if they were accosted for it)? Because the vast majority of people I see getting into and out of taxis in bus lanes are NOT disabled nor have difficulty of movement - they are middle aged adults often in suits who simply do not think of others when they delay a bus containing 50 people so they can take their taxi ride.

By the way, it's not private cars in central London - there are comparatively few due to the C-charge and swingeing parking fees. It's taxis and Ubers, though mostly it's black taxis.

Unless disabled or of restricted movement, or carrying a very heavy load, you do not need to use a taxi in central London. It's slow and expensive. So most people delaying buses in taxis are simply being lazy, using a polluting single-occupancy vehicle for their journey, totally unnecessarily.

scosutsut · 29 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
So most people delaying buses in taxis are simply being lazy, using a polluting single-occupancy vehicle for their journey, totally unnecessarily.

This links nicely to my original point - people are perfectly entitled to do so but they should be punished for that choice the same way car owners are, and not rewarded like bus passengers.

Bletchleyite · 29 Aug 2019

scosutsut said:
This links nicely to my original point - people are perfectly entitled to do so but they should be punished for that choice the same way car owners are, and not rewarded like bus passengers.

Perhaps bus lanes should be multi-occupancy lanes, open only to buses as well as cars/taxis which are more than say 70% occupied. A full private car is a good use of road space and is also quite environmentally efficient so far as things go. But most cars (and taxis) are not full nor anywhere near it.

SpeedbirdA350 · 29 Aug 2019

It says BUS lane not taxi lane. 129 people on a bus vs a handful in a taxi. No brainer to me. Some routes are already no entry except buses, taxi, cycle, tram anyway so taxis get to use those routes. Taxis shoudl be permitted to stop only to pick up/drop off passangers but not within x feet of a bus stop, but not to use the bus lane for driving in.

Biggest problem is parking in bus lanes which allow it but that's for another day!

Bletchleyite · 29 Aug 2019

SpeedbirdA350 said:
It says BUS lane not taxi lane. 129 people on a bus vs a handful in a taxi. No brainer to me. Some routes are already no entry except buses, taxi, cycle, tram anyway so taxis get to use those routes. Taxis shoudl be permitted to stop only to pick up/drop off passangers but not within x feet of a bus stop, but not to use the bus lane for driving in.

Taxis driving in bus lanes cause little disruption. The issue is them stopping in bus lanes.

All bus lanes, without exception, need to be Red Routes during all hours of operation (and why not operate them all 24/7? If the road is not busy there's no benefit of allowing cars in them anyway). They are near-useless otherwise.

SpeedbirdA350 · 29 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Taxis driving in bus lanes cause little disruption. The issue is them stopping in bus lanes.

All bus lanes, without exception, need to be Red Routes during all hours of operation (and why not operate them all 24/7? If the road is not busy there's no benefit of allowing cars in them anyway). They are near-useless otherwise.

I should have elaborated. Disabled customers, those with very limited mobility (those who usually would be entitled to a blue badge, and will haev a taxi badge) should be allowed to haev the driver stop where they need to go. I am not saying that all taxis should be allowed this however, but on receipt of the badge, the taxi should be permitted this.

Taxis in bus lanes

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