Railcard discount not offered on Super Off Peak ticket

ejstubbs · 9 Oct 2018

I'm trying to book two adults on the 17:00 Sunday service from Kings Cross to Waverley. We have a Two Together railcard. The LNER web site offers me the railcard discount on the Advance fare but not on the Super Off Peak. The Two Together Railcard web site says specifically that the railcard gives discounts on Super Off Peak tickets.

I tried booking the same journey on the Scotrail web site: same problem.

Anyone know a valid reason why I am not being offered the railcard discount with this ticket?

RailUK Forums

Romilly · 9 Oct 2018

It depends on whether you are trying to book a super offpeak single that is about £1 cheaper than the super offpeak return (in which event railcard discounts are available), or the specially-discounted super offpeak single that is half the price of the super offpeak return (in which event railcard discounts are not available as the special discount on these tickets, which were originally intended to be sold only in conjunction with a single in the opposite direction, is treated by retail systems as the equivalent of a railcard discount).

ejstubbs · 9 Oct 2018

Thanks, that would seem to explain why the discount isn't offered. I assume that's why there is a little "discounted" icon next to the ticket on the selection grid - to show that it's already discounted and no further discount is available. It would also seem to explain why I don't get anything like as low a price (even without the railcard discount being offered) if I try to book a super off peak ticket separately through another TOC.

It would be nice if the online booking system could make the rules a bit clearer, though.

Mojo · 9 Oct 2018

I'm presuming you are trying to buy a Super Off-Peak Single ticket?

Technically you are already being offered a hefty discount on this ticket of circa 50%; the Super Off-Peak Single ticket is actually £141.90 (£93.65 with your Railcard) whereas the LNER website is selling it for only £71.00.

Traditionally on many routes, particularly long distance ones, it has been the policy of those setting the fares for walkon (ie. non-Advance) Single tickets to cost not much less than a Return. In the case of the this flow from London to Edinburgh a Single is £1 (65p with a Railcard) cheaper than a Return.

It has been the policy of the various East Coast operators for a few years now to offer a Super Off-Peak Single ticket priced at half the price of a return when purchased in conjunction with an Advance in the other direction; the rationale being to encourage people to move to Advance tickets but where on one leg an Advance cannot be bought (eg. because Advance tickets are not on sale or perhaps the customer requires some flexibility on one leg). When Virgin Trains launched their new booking engine, it was not compatible with this requirement and could not issue this reduced-rate fare in conjunction with an Advance booking on the other leg. To get around this, the developers modified the booking engine and simply offers a ticket with 50% off, but this ticket is offered to all customers where the journey planner returns an itinerary on LNER trains (although it is still valid on permitted routes including those of other Tocs), not just to those buying an Advance in the other direction.

So accordingly, those who are only doing a one-way trip are actually benefitting as they are being offered a Single ticket at roughly half the price that it is supposed to be (Railcard customers are not getting such a great discount, but it is still much less than the price of the ticket would otherwise be even with the 34% Railcard discount). Railcard customers trying to buy this ticket as part of a two-way journey are however losing out.

Wallsendmag · 9 Oct 2018

Mojo said:
I'm presuming you are trying to buy a Super Off-Peak Single ticket?

Technically you are already being offered a hefty discount on this ticket of circa 50%; the Super Off-Peak Single ticket is actually £141.90 (£93.65 with your Railcard) whereas the LNER website is selling it for only £71.00.

Traditionally on many routes, particularly long distance ones, it has been the policy of those setting the fares for walkon (ie. non-Advance) Single tickets to cost not much less than a Return. In the case of the this flow from London to Edinburgh a Single is £1 (65p with a Railcard) cheaper than a Return.

It has been the policy of the various East Coast operators for a few years now to offer a Super Off-Peak Single ticket priced at half the price of a return when purchased in conjunction with an Advance in the other direction; the rationale being to encourage people to move to Advance tickets but where on one leg an Advance cannot be bought (eg. because Advance tickets are not on sale or perhaps the customer requires some flexibility on one leg). When Virgin Trains launched their new booking engine, it was not compatible with this requirement and could not issue this reduced-rate fare in conjunction with an Advance booking on the other leg. To get around this, the developers modified the booking engine and simply offers a ticket with 50% off, but this ticket is offered to all customers where the journey planner returns an itinerary on LNER trains (although it is still valid on permitted routes including those of other Tocs), not just to those buying an Advance in the other direction.

So accordingly, those who are only doing a one-way trip are actually benefitting as they are being offered a Single ticket at roughly half the price that it is supposed to be (Railcard customers are not getting such a great discount, but it is still much less than the price of the ticket would otherwise be even with the 34% Railcard discount). Railcard customers trying to buy this ticket as part of a two-way journey are however losing out.

Nearly correct but the booking engine wasn't modified another method was used.

Mojo · 10 Oct 2018

Wallsendmag said:
Nearly correct but the booking engine wasn't modified another method was used.

Well, it was modified, as when originally launched, it was not selling the ticket at a reduced rate at all! Something was obviously modified as it does now sell it!

Wallsendmag · 10 Oct 2018

Mojo said:
Well, it was modified, as when originally launched, it was not selling the ticket at a reduced rate at all! Something was obviously modified as it does now sell it!

No not modified in any way, we just put a workaround in using the existing functionality.

BrianB · 22 May 2019

I have just fallen foul of this. Went on NRES to book a trip London - York, out and back same day, out 0906 return 1603. NRES clearly offers a Senior Railcard discount of £19.30 on the return journey as shown below but as soon as it redirects you to LNER to book then the fare offered increases with no railcard discount. A complaint to LNER in Mumbai or wherever got me nowhere, which I should have expected when I was asked if I was going to Euston. In the end had to book an advance again, which took away my flexibilty to get away earlier if my meeting ended early. Not impressed, but cant decide who am not impressed by, NRES or LNER.

Bletchleyite · 22 May 2019

One of the many reasons just to get rid of this complexity and price everything as singles.

BrianB · 22 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
One of the many reasons just to get rid of this complexity and price everything as singles.

Agree. I am long past my days of being a booking clerk when the most radical ticket was an Economy Return, however I still work for the industry in a different capacity, so I did consider myself to have the knowledge and skills to be able to navigate this booking quite easily, but how wrong I was. Ordinarily I would just go for a flexible off peak return, none of this Advance crap where you are told when you can and cant eat and breathe, but in this instance I am not paying, so needed to get best value for my employer. I have no inside or indepth knowledge of the thousands of fares available, so I dont think I am being naive in expecting to be able to trust what I am told. If NRES says 'x' then I dont expect LNER or any TOC to contradict it and say 'y'. Things is, it all falls of deaf ears, nobody wants to know or cares and that saddens me.

Starmill · 22 May 2019

Under East Coast, it was possible to:

1. Buy a single ticket at half of the Super Off Peak Return rate
2. Do so without the 'East Coast only' restriction that applies today (for example Malton to London would be possible which today is not)
3. Not have to buy a ticket in the other direction
4. Get a railcard discount on this fare

Apparently this was all judged too generous. The LNER website was amended to say that a railcard discount is unavailable with this offer. It used to specifically say that the discount is available.

To me, it makes sense to apply the restriction alluded to in point 3 i.e. to issue the tickets as part of a return journey only. It does not make any sense to remove a railcard discount or to restrict it to one operator. Indeed, that is exactly how Virgin Trains (and I think East Midlands Trains) implement these.

Starmill · 22 May 2019

Wallsendmag said:
No not modified in any way, we just put a workaround in using the existing functionality.

This 'workaround' does not achieve even similar results to the way it is intended to work though does it? The tickets are not even the same price. They are now set at SSS/2, when they should be SSR/2.

Bletchleyite · 22 May 2019

Starmill said:
This 'workaround' does not achieve even similar results to the way it is intended to work though does it? The tickets are not even the same price. They are now set at SSS/2, when they should be SSR/2.

The difference is all of 5p, though, isn't it?

Starmill · 22 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The difference is all of 5p, though, isn't it?

It is when you implement it on an LNER flow. It had very different results when GWR SSS tickets were sold with the LNER S50 discount.

yorkie · 2 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
One of the many reasons just to get rid of this complexity and price everything as singles.

Feel free to create a new thread with your proposals but other suppliers manage to get this fare discounted correctly, so I don't agree that the complexity is insurmountable.

I understand the issue is with the TIS supplier, Vix Technology, and not their fares data supplier, SilverRail (as evidenced by the fact NRE - which is powered by SilverRail - states the correct price)

BrianB said:
...Things is, it all falls of deaf ears, nobody wants to know or cares and that saddens me.

LNER are well aware of the issue but their TIS supplier is seemingly incapable of fixing it, and presumably LNER do not have adequate safeguards in the contract to be able to get out of it.

These fares are available with Railcard discounts from other suppliers, but LNER appear to be stuck with a supplier who doesn't have the resources or knowledge or willpower (whichever it is!) to do it, so affected customers are best off using a retailer who will provide the discount.

infobleep · 3 Jun 2019

yorkie said:
Feel free to create a new thread with your proposals but other suppliers manage to get this fare discounted correctly, so I don't agree that the complexity is insurmountable.

I understand the issue is with the TIS supplier, Vix Technology, and not their fares data supplier, SilverRail (as evidenced by the fact NRE - which is powered by SilverRail - states the correct price)

LNER are well aware of the issue but their TIS supplier is seemingly incapable of fixing it, and presumably LNER do not have adequate safeguards in the contract to be able to get out of it.

These fares are available with Railcard discounts from other suppliers, but LNER appear to be stuck with a supplier who doesn't have the resources or knowledge or willpower (whichever it is!) to do it, so affected customers are best off using a retailer who will provide the discount.

Perhaps NRE could redirect people to sites other than LNER.

jsmith300 · 28 Aug 2019

I have a problem at the moment mid-trip with one of these.
I purchased advance one way (used) and super offpeak single online for the return via raileasy.
I now need to change the date of the return travel and raileasy require me to purchase a new ticket and submit the existing for refund. However, you can't purchase this ticket as a single so I am stuck.
Despite purchasing a ticket that supposedly you can amend, I now can't?

yorkie · 28 Aug 2019

jsmith300 said:
I have a problem at the moment mid-trip with one of these.
I purchased advance one way (used) and super offpeak single online for the return via raileasy.
I now need to change the date of the return travel and raileasy require me to purchase a new ticket and submit the existing for refund. However, you can't purchase this ticket as a single so I am stuck.
Despite purchasing a ticket that supposedly you can amend, I now can't?

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46594.aspx

Changes to tickets can be made at most National Rail ticket offices before you travel. Alternatively, you can call the telesales outlet or visit the online retailer that you bought your ticket from.

A ticket can be amended by a ticket office, not just from the retailer.

Which TOCs serve stations near you? Someone may know if any of these TOCs use a ticket issuing system (TIS) which can issue or amend such a ticket individually; it may be possible to do this as an excess fare on some ticket issuing systems perhaps. (maybe @district @causton or @Haywain will know?)

If you can state what the journey is, we may be able to help further; if it's for an LNER journey we can ask someone on this forum who works for the company if they know what the company's policy in this area is. Or is it a Virgin priced fare?

jsmith300 · 28 Aug 2019

yorkie said:
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46594.aspx

A ticket can be amended by a ticket office, not just from the retailer.

Which TOCs serve stations near you? Someone may know if any of these TOCs use a ticket issuing system (TIS) which can issue or amend such a ticket individually; it may be possible to do this as an excess fare on some ticket issuing systems perhaps. (maybe @district @causton or @Haywain will know?)

If you can state what the journey is, we may be able to help further; if it's for an LNER journey we can ask someone on this forum who works for the company if they know what the company's policy in this area is. Or is it a Virgin priced fare?

It's a LNER journey. Unfortunately, the ticket was for today and I haven't been able to get to a mainline station to try. I'm planning to travel tomorrow so hopefully King's Cross might be able to help.

Haywain · 28 Aug 2019

Off the top of my head, I think that tomorrow you will need to pay for a new ticket at the available rate (ie: no 50% discount), from which the cost of the ticket you hold will be deducted, possibly less a £10 refund admin charge as it is after the date of travel. Changes to these discounted tickets made at stations are always up to the non-dscounted price as the discount is not available at stations (or on the day of travel). I'll be checking the details in the morning in case I've got this wrong.

jsmith300 · 28 Aug 2019

Haywain said:
Off the top of my head, I think that tomorrow you will need to pay for a new ticket at the available rate (ie: no 50% discount), from which the cost of the ticket you hold will be deducted, possibly less a £10 refund admin charge as it is after the date of travel. Changes to these discounted tickets made at stations are always up to the non-dscounted price as the discount is not available at stations (or on the day of travel). I'll be checking the details in the morning in case I've got this wrong.

So I am effectively in the position that despite the terms saying I can change for an admin fee, I am actually not able to.

Haywain · 29 Aug 2019

jsmith300 said:
So I am effectively in the position that despite the terms saying I can change for an admin fee, I am actually not able to.

Not outside of the normal timescales for the sale of the ticket, no. It can only be purchased ahead of the date of travel, and online, so any change for an admin fee must meet those criteria.

jsmith300 · 29 Aug 2019

Haywain said:
Not outside of the normal timescales for the sale of the ticket, no. It can only be purchased ahead of the date of travel, and online, so any change for an admin fee must meet those criteria.

Which I met by the fact I have a ticket?

Haywain · 29 Aug 2019

jsmith300 said:
Which I met by the fact I have a ticket?

You misunderstand - the ticket you want to change to must meet the same criteria. It is, in effect, the same rules as those for as an Advance ticket.

jsmith300 · 29 Aug 2019

Except with an advance you can change the date. With this ticket, I can’t change the date as I can’t get a retailer online or off to process the change?

Haywain · 29 Aug 2019

jsmith300 said:
Except with an advance you can change the date. With this ticket, I can’t change the date as I can’t get a retailer online or off to process the change?

OK, I missed the fact that you purchased the ticket from Raileasy (I had assumed it was from LNER). Any query about not being able to change the ticket will need to be taken up with them as I'm not familiar with how they would go about this. In the meantime, you would need to buy a new ticket for the journey and discuss a refund of the original with the retailer (again Raileasy). Appreciate you will probably feel this is unhelpful.

Brissle Girl · 29 Aug 2019

Looks like this will all be academic soon, as the govt has just announced LNER is to reduce off peak single fares to half the cost of a return. A bit like GWR did a few years ago, although it loaded the single price by 15% if I recall, which at the rime seemed a reasonable compromise.

yorkie · 29 Aug 2019

What is the journey? Also, is it with a Railcard discount or not?

Have you looked (I would have done so, but I don't know what I am looking for) for a return journey which has a return portion at a time when there are dirt cheap Advances available which could be thrown away?

I have asked someone who has many years experience in the industry for their views on this and will see what they say.

RJ · 29 Aug 2019

jsmith300 said:
I have a problem at the moment mid-trip with one of these.
I purchased advance one way (used) and super offpeak single online for the return via raileasy.
I now need to change the date of the return travel and raileasy require me to purchase a new ticket and submit the existing for refund. However, you can't purchase this ticket as a single so I am stuck.
Despite purchasing a ticket that supposedly you can amend, I now can't?

It can certainly be amended at some ticket offices depending on the software used and if the clerk is prepared to do it. I personally wouldn't have an issue with doing it if a customer asked but YMMV. Some might only excess you to the full priced Super Off Peak Single.

It might be better if you can ask Raileasy if they can cancel the Advance element if you do rebook as described or if they have another workaround if it is amendable (I haven't checked).

yorkie · 29 Aug 2019

RJ said:
It might be better if you can ask Raileasy if they can cancel the Advance element if you do rebook as described or if they have another workaround if it is amendable (I haven't checked).

Good idea, and if it was before the Advance ticket was used, then yes that would work, but from my reading of a post above, my understanding is that it appears to be affecting the return portion and that the outward leg has already occured.

Railcard discount not offered on Super Off Peak ticket

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