Then prepare to be disappointed on Virgin Trains, which now show 'Available if unoccupied' a few minutes after leaving intermediate stations. I wouldn't move if I sat in a seat with nothing on it and displaying that message, and you then turned up trying to move me.
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Paying for seat reservations
- Thread starter Mogz
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Then prepare to be disappointed on Virgin Trains, which now show 'Available if unoccupied' a few minutes after leaving intermediate stations. I wouldn't move if I sat in a seat with nothing on it and displaying that message, and you then turned up trying to move me.
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NoOnesFool
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I would favour a charge of £6 for flexible ticket holders. Advance ticket holders to still get reservations at no charge though, as this is a term of their ticket that they must sit in their reserved seat I do believe.
You have information to prove that or are you just guessing what tickets people buy? Surely a flexible ticket holder is more likely to not turn up for a particular service.
Anyway, I've lost count of the number of times this topic has come up - raised by those who think there is a problem but where none actually exists if pax use common sense.
Rail fares are expensive enough already without paying even more for a seat reservation.
On TOCs with counted place reservations only, e.g SWR, is there similar chaos and confusion as passengers try to obtain seats?
On TOCs with counted place reservations only, e.g SWR, is there similar chaos and confusion as passengers try to obtain seats?
In theory an AP ticket is not valid unless you sit in the reserved seat which comes with it. This is rarely enforced and is a bit unreasonable given you can't always choose the seat you want to sit in.
What happens is that people see an available seat and sit elsewhere rather than going to their reserved seat.
For most average loaded trains I would be happy not to have a reserved seat with an advance fare. The reservation only becomes useful on (very) busy trains.
What happens is that people see an available seat and sit elsewhere rather than going to their reserved seat.
For most average loaded trains I would be happy not to have a reserved seat with an advance fare. The reservation only becomes useful on (very) busy trains.
Someone not showing up to occupy their reserved seat also means that they have wasted the amount they paid for their ticket. Whether a reservation is free or whether it costs £1 is irrelevant. Travelling on a Railcard, my longer distance journeys are rarely more than £12-£15. Anything more than a £1 charge for a reservation would make Megabus or National Express suddenly very tempting.
Of course most of those could never be left unattended, but in carrying all that kit do you never have anything cheap with you? A pac-a-mac, a book? Not to mention the fact no one is going to steal your water bottle or camera clamp.
Just go to the toilet immediately after a stop and you will always have time to get back to your seat and see any pontential thief anyway.
How is it wasted if they are on an open return and chose to travel on a later service, even if they reserved a seat on an earlier train? They haven’t lost any money and have benefitted from the flexibility they paid for.
voyagerdude220
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Whilst reservations have their uses, I do think that train companies should be leaving a greater proportion of seats free of reservations, for those travelling without a reservation.
A few months ago I was travelling on a 9-car Pendolino from Glasgow Central (12:40 departure) and the reservation system had failed. Unfortunately for me, I was on a flexible First Class ticket and travelling earlier than planned. I ended up having to move to another seat for the couple who had reserved the table for 2 I sat at.
Of course I don't know how many seats had been reserved, but coaches H and J (where I finally found a seat) were both at least 75% full departing Glasgow, I'd imagine they would have been full after Warrington.
National Express East Coast reintroduced the £1 seat reservation fee for non Advance tickets.
Not unpredictably, all holy hell broke loose with ‘those paying up to ten times more for a ticket being forced to pay again just to get a seat’ (paraphrased from press reporting at the time).
The best that can be said about the idea is that it was, at least, consistent with many of NXEC’s other bat crazy notions about how to run the operation.
I can’t remember whether they themselves canned it swiftly, however, or whether it was one of the first things that East Coast (DOR) did.
Is it just me or is an unclaimed reserved seat a total non issue?
Just sit in the seat if it's not being being used and there are no other unreserved seats available. I've done it loads of times.
I do see people standing when there are empty reserved seats available, weird behaviour but each to their own!
Just sit in the seat if it's not being being used and there are no other unreserved seats available. I've done it loads of times.
I do see people standing when there are empty reserved seats available, weird behaviour but each to their own!
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Leave that on the seat and take the bag with you. People don't nick cheap waterproofs (I could understand if it was a £200 Gore-Tex but it's not). Most probably even if you left that in town by mistake someone would just hang it on a nearby fence for you to pick up.
It would certainly help if the default for AP tickets on all TOCs was counted place (ie no actual seat reservation, but you still have to be a specific train), and similarly the default for corporate and other booking systems was not to offer a seat reservation. But still make them available for those that want to go to a bit of extra trouble to make them, possibly with a nominal charge.
No, not just you.
Get cheapo touch panels for the back of the seats.
Walk up passengers:
Shows green on any not reserved. Sit down, click where you're travelling to. Goes red for occupied and prevents the seat being reserved for the applicable journey.
Pre-booked passengers who turn up:
Shows orange for reserved. Sit down, tap the screen, goes red for occupied.
Pre-booked passengers who don't turn up:
As above, but 5 minutes after departure if the screen hasn't been tapped it goes unreserved.
Solves a number of problems, and all very doable.
Walk up passengers:
Shows green on any not reserved. Sit down, click where you're travelling to. Goes red for occupied and prevents the seat being reserved for the applicable journey.
Pre-booked passengers who turn up:
Shows orange for reserved. Sit down, tap the screen, goes red for occupied.
Pre-booked passengers who don't turn up:
As above, but 5 minutes after departure if the screen hasn't been tapped it goes unreserved.
Solves a number of problems, and all very doable.
I like Camden's idea, particularly the bit about walk up passengers preventing a seat being reserved en-route. As much of the problem comes from not knowing whether a pre-booked passenger is going to turn up or not, would be enhanced if there was an easy way to cancel or change your pre-booked reservation once you knew you had sat somewhere else or were not going to be on the train.
Perhaps any seat reservation fee should be refundable if you actually show up and use it?
Perhaps any seat reservation fee should be refundable if you actually show up and use it?
I guess the system could handle that (change of seat) by it being a scan of the ticket or input a code when you're sat down if you're not in the original seat. It could then release the original one.
I think the refundable £1 fee is a good idea which I can imagine driving the right behaviour. The biggest issue with absent reservationists is those booking walk up tickets online and reserving a seat. They have the flexibility to use other trains and often do.
They can still do that, but the psychology of the fee might a) get them to think harder about which train they will get and b) if they doubt they'll make the train they would ordinarily book for possibly get them to drop the reservation and keep their £1.
I think the refundable £1 fee is a good idea which I can imagine driving the right behaviour. The biggest issue with absent reservationists is those booking walk up tickets online and reserving a seat. They have the flexibility to use other trains and often do.
They can still do that, but the psychology of the fee might a) get them to think harder about which train they will get and b) if they doubt they'll make the train they would ordinarily book for possibly get them to drop the reservation and keep their £1.
trainophile
Established Member
I would never travel without a jacket of some sort, as I have been caught out by fridge temperature air conditioning even in the middle of a heatwave.
paddington
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If I saw an unattended jacket I'd assume that someone left it behind by mistake. The last time this happened, someone else tossed it onto a chair on the platform when the train next stopped, then sat in the seat. A water bottle would probably be tossed in the bin
The only experience I have of paying for seat reservations is in Germany, where there is a charge. I paid it for 2 different train journeys. On one the seat was reserved (and shown as such on the display) but someone was still sat there and I had a job to get them to move. On the second occasion no seat reservations were provided at all anywhere on the train. When I contacted DB to request a refund in this second case I was directed to an email address they seem never to answer. I got the money back eventually via my credit card company.
I suppose the point I'm making is that if you start charging for something it leaves you open to far more problems if the reserved seat isn't actually available or reserved. Many people (myself included) strongly object to paying for something that isn't done. There would have to be some sort of "reservation repay" system where reservations are refunded when seats aren't reserved. I suspect TOCs would also be liable to charge backs if someone else sat in the reserved seat and didn't move, which unfortunately does happen.
I suppose the point I'm making is that if you start charging for something it leaves you open to far more problems if the reserved seat isn't actually available or reserved. Many people (myself included) strongly object to paying for something that isn't done. There would have to be some sort of "reservation repay" system where reservations are refunded when seats aren't reserved. I suspect TOCs would also be liable to charge backs if someone else sat in the reserved seat and didn't move, which unfortunately does happen.
Why would anyone do that (the jacket)? The etiquette isn't difficult - a coat on a chair means someone is using it but has temporarily left it. Would you sit on a chair or a stool in a bar with someone else's coat on it?
paddington
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Sorry, I might not have been paying full attention when I posted. I thought the meaning was to leave the jacket in the seat itself, because I was thinking of the time when I saw someone toss out a jacket left on a seat from the train (I believe they assumed that the owner got off the train, and would return to the platform and be happy that someone removed it from the train and left it at the station!)
Not sure if you can hang a jacket on the seats on most intercity trains though.
Regarding the bar situation, I was at a hotel bar when someone left their half-drunk glass on the table and their (hi-vis) jacket on the seat, then someone else came and sat there and moved the glass to a table with other used glasses. When the guy came back he was really confused as he couldn't find "his" table.
Back on topic, I am in the camp of wishing all advance tickets did not come with a mandatory seat reservation, and I would rather stand than pay. This point of view may change in 40 years time when I may not be able to stand for long periods any more.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Really? They do that now?
That seems a retrograde step to me. What was wrong with the old system, where if a seat was shown as 'reserved' but no-one was in it, people could easily deduce that the holder of the reservation hadn't turned up and just sit in it anyway (with the expectation that they would move if the reservation holder did arrive).
I don't think it's unknown for a train to be so crowded that a reservation holder can't physically get to their seat until some time after boarding (perhaps, after a few intermediate stops have disgorged some passengers).
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
There are lots of reasons why a person might not turn up: They could have simply changed their journey plans. They might have missed the train due to a late arriving connection. They might have found a better seat after they boarded the train (or boarded the train several carriages away from their reserved seat and not felt inclined to walk half-way along the train if there are lots of other available seats nearby). Or, if the train was packed out, they might not physically have been able to get to their reserved seat. Some of these scenarios present significant administrative challenges to charging for reservations. For example, you'd presumably need to put some system of refunds in place for people who were unable to get to their seats because of crowding/missed connections/etc., and that will be burdomsome to administer.
Also, if people did pay for reservations, some people with reservations are likely to become much more aggressive about protecting 'their' seats. That could lead to difficult situations and arguments, causing more problems than it solves.
In the end, I don't really see anything wrong with the current situation where most people understand that, if a seat is marked as reserved, it's fine to sit in it if more than a few minutes have elapsed with no-one sitting in it.
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DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Actually, for me personally, there have been occasions on commuter trains when I've wanted to go to the toilet, not wished to leave any stuff unattended (because of the more frequent stops), and I've therefore simply accepted that I might need to find a different seat once I've finished. But those aren't really the kind of trains where you'd normally have seat reservations anyway.
Past four years I've had myself organized for my 2½ hour rail journeys to Yorkshire from London King's Cross so I don't have to leave my seat.
Arrive at King's Cross in good time, go next door to St. Pancras International to use their free facilities. Get on the train then 10-15 minutes from my destination, I get up, pack up my stuff (Asda green carrier bag) and head for the toilet.
Arrive at King's Cross in good time, go next door to St. Pancras International to use their free facilities. Get on the train then 10-15 minutes from my destination, I get up, pack up my stuff (Asda green carrier bag) and head for the toilet.
trainophile
Established Member
Or you could ask someone seated nearby if they would mind keeping an eye on your jacket/bag/glasses/newspaper/whatever while you pop to the toilet. I have never known anyone refuse this reasonable request, and as well as making sure your stuff is not thrown off the train or nicked, they would obviously confirm to anyone looking to occupy your seat that it is already taken.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I pretty much always do this, and only once did someone "misinterpret" it and move it to the overhead rack. On my return he was very apologetic.
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