Class 158s - should the opening hopper windows be sealed?

superkev · 28 Aug 2019

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-class-170s.157388/page-23#post-4030539

61653 HTAFC said:
No, but nobody seemed to mention the 80+% of 158s with perfectly functional aircon... nor the almost-as-frequent times when the aircon failed on other units such as 185s and HSTs.

People don't seem to dress for the weather either. If I had a pound for every time I'd seen some boomer in an overcoat complaining to a guard about being too hot last summer, I'd be several pounds richer!

Hmm 80%, you mustn't be Northern land, as watching the world go by at Sowerby Bridge the other day not one 158 passed me without the emergency hoppers open.

Seal em up as Ian Walmsley of Modern Railways said, to encourage them to maintain them properly, and also stop the conductors opening them when the systems actually working.

Boiled alive passengers on Northern seems to be an annual event and I'm glad I don't have to ride on trains anymore, particularly in warm weather.

From a lifelong rail fan I think that's rather sad.

K

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ed1971 · 29 Aug 2019

superkev said:
Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-class-170s.157388/page-23#post-4030539

Hmm 80%, you mustn't be Northern land, as watching the world go by at Sowerby Bridge the other day not one 158 passed me without the emergency hoppers open.

Seal em up as Ian Walmsley of Modern Railways said, to encourage them to maintain them properly, and also stop the conductors opening them when the systems actually working.

Boiled alive passengers on Northern seems to be an annual event and I'm glad I don't have to ride on trains anymore, particularly in warm weather.

From a lifelong rail fan I think that's rather sad.

K

In this country, for most of the year it is better to have opening windows and forgo aircon. The weather is so changeable here, that when going out, you often just don't know what to wear. This has happened to me several times this summer. One day I turned out with a shirt on and later that day got drenched.

Flying Snail · 29 Aug 2019

ed1971 said:
In this country, for most of the year it is better to have opening windows and forgo aircon. The weather is so changeable here, that when going out, you often just don't know what to wear. This has happened to me several times this summer. One day I turned out with a shirt on and later that day got drenched.

It really isn't.

Properly functioning A/C should keep the interior within a small window of temp as well as dehumidifying the air, open hopper windows provide no cooling in extremes of heat and no airflow when the train is stationary.

Unfortunately I do believe the presence of the "emergency" hoppers on the 158s is a major factor in the units being in service constantly with broken A/C, they drop the priority to keep it maintained from required to if nothing else in the depot needs doing.

ed1971 · 29 Aug 2019

Flying Snail said:
It really isn't.

Properly functioning A/C should keep the interior within a small window of temp as well as dehumidifying the air, open hopper windows provide no cooling in extremes of heat and no airflow when the train is stationary.

Unfortunately I do believe the presence of the "emergency" hoppers on the 158s is a major factor in the units being in service constantly with broken A/C, they drop the priority to keep it maintained from required to if nothing else in the depot needs doing.

During recent hot days, I found that the Pacers were the most comfortable units to travel on, sat near the doors on the bench seats with the windows open. As far as I am aware, on modern electric trains, the A/C doesn't work if there is a power cut, which poses a problem with non opening windows.

hooverboy · 29 Aug 2019

ed1971 said:
During recent hot days, I found that the Pacers were the most comfortable units to travel on, sat near the doors on the bench seats with the windows open. As far as I am aware, on modern electric trains, the A/C doesn't work if there is a power cut, which poses a problem with non opening windows.

lots of other causes of A/C failures.

could be leaks, loss of power(or mechanical failure)of compressor or pump- not that serious
detection of microbes, staph,strep or legionella in the system- instant fail and back to depot.

ed1971 · 29 Aug 2019

hooverboy said:
lots of other causes of A/C failures.

could be leaks, loss of power(or mechanical failure)of compressor or pump- not that serious
detection of microbes, staph,strep or legionella in the system- instant fail and back to depot.

All very worrying.

MotorcycleAlan · 29 Aug 2019

I would be interested to know where the 80% with working air conditioning run? On a recent 4 day "explore wales" trip we did not encounter a single 158 with working air conditioning. Just endless apologies from guards who also had to contend with 2 early terminations due to "faults", and one complete cancellation which made the next service even more cosy with double the expected loading. Coupled with most of our seat reservations not being in place we decided never again.

Bletchleyite · 29 Aug 2019

They just need to replace the system with the one used on Chiltern 165s and it would be reliable. The ex-BR system simply doesn't work, which is mainly because it's designed for use with CFCs rather than modern refrigerants.

yorksrob · 29 Aug 2019

Absolutely not. I'd rather they had the option of the opening window, than risk the Aircon packing up altogether.

Entertexthere · 29 Aug 2019

I've found that with all the hoppers open, it doesn't provide that much. I was on a 158 from Leeds last week, with none of the hoppers open when it was searing hot. I think that they should refurbish the air-cons like they did with the SWT 159s a few years back (about 3 years ago) as part of the PRM refurbishment seeing as it's only gonna get hotter over the next few years in summer!

ed1971 · 29 Aug 2019

Entertexthere said:
I've found that with all the hoppers open, it doesn't provide that much. I was on a 158 from Leeds last week, with none of the hoppers open when it was searing hot. I think that they should refurbish the air-cons like they did with the SWT 159s a few years back (about 3 years ago) as part of the PRM refurbishment seeing as it's only gonna get hotter over the next few years in summer!

I'll believe that when it happens! UK summer weather started going haywire from 1985 with the odd good summer here and there, such as 1989, 1990, 2006 and 2018. I believe that 1976 was a blistering hot summer too, but I was only 5 at the time.

We tend to think of Class 158s as modern trains and it is easy to forget that they are nearly three decades old.

ABDeltic · 29 Aug 2019

Entertexthere said:
I've found that with all the hoppers open, it doesn't provide that much. I was on a 158 from Leeds last week, with none of the hoppers open when it was searing hot. I think that they should refurbish the air-cons like they did with the SWT 159s a few years back (about 3 years ago) as part of the PRM refurbishment seeing as it's only gonna get hotter over the next few years in summer!

They have refurbished the air con on the 159's a few times over the years and it's still hopeless if it is hot weather. On Tuesday none the of the 6 coaches on my train home had working a/c. Anything over 30 degrees and it will break down. I'm just glad the windows can be opened.

hexagon789 · 29 Aug 2019

Yes, and TOCs should install properly functioning AC and have suitable regimes in place to maintain it.

61653 HTAFC · 29 Aug 2019

ed1971 said:
During recent hot days, I found that the Pacers were the most comfortable units to travel on, sat near the doors on the bench seats with the windows open. As far as I am aware, on modern electric trains, the A/C doesn't work if there is a power cut, which poses a problem with non opening windows.

A shame* they can't run with the doors open like their Leyland National cousins! :lol:

*=not really a shame, obviously! The old 4-fold doors had a habit of being blown open by changes in air pressure (such as entering or leaving tunnels at speed) o_O

, which lead to their replacement on the 142s (but not 141s).

507021 · 29 Aug 2019

hexagon789 said:
Yes, and TOCs should install properly functioning AC and have suitable regimes in place to maintain it.

Agree 100%.

edwin_m · 29 Aug 2019

ed1971 said:
In this country, for most of the year it is better to have opening windows and forgo aircon. The weather is so changeable here, that when going out, you often just don't know what to wear. This has happened to me several times this summer. One day I turned out with a shirt on and later that day got drenched.

I'd rather not be in a train full of noise and draught and (at the wrong time of year) pollen. Hopper windows do nothing for the person sat underneath who probably opened them, but create draughts for someone several seats further back. My hay fever isn't quite so bad now, but it used to be on a warm day the only place I could sit in a 156 was the front of the coach facing backwards. I'm not sure how opening windows helps with what to wear in the morning - you're more likely to get baked on a non-aircon train (for example if it stops and there is no breeze) and probably more likely to get drenched seeing how the hoppers let the rain in.

I think the 158 hopper windows are a sensible compromise, but that management should make sure the crew are trained in when to use them.

ed1971 · 29 Aug 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
A shame* they can't run with the doors open like their Leyland National cousins!

*=not really a shame, obviously! The old 4-fold doors had a habit of being blown open by changes in air pressure (such as entering or leaving tunnels at speed) , which lead to their replacement on the 142s (but not 141s).

In India trains run not only with their doors open but people hanging on from the sides and on top of the roof! https://www.rediff.com/money/slide-...e-a-nightmare-in-indian-railways/20140113.htm

I remember the old Deans four leaf doors on 142s. Their replacement by two leaf Peters doors (as fitted from new on Class 143 and 144s) was later on carried out on major overall at BRML Doncaster. Cummins engines were fitted at the same time. A photo of 142007 being dealt with in 1994 here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/manofyorkshire/5223681750/in/photostream/
However, some units retained the original doors and got Cummins engines first. 142036, 142032, 142014 and 142048 were amongst these. The first 142 to have the new doors was 142044.

However 143s and 144s also got whole new doors and door mechanisms at the same time. I don't know why.

ed1971 · 29 Aug 2019

edwin_m said:
I'd rather not be in a train full of noise and draught and (at the wrong time of year) pollen. Hopper windows do nothing for the person sat underneath who probably opened them, but create draughts for someone several seats further back. My hay fever isn't quite so bad now, but it used to be on a warm day the only place I could sit in a 156 was the front of the coach facing backwards. I'm not sure how opening windows helps with what to wear in the morning - you're more likely to get baked on a non-aircon train (for example if it stops and there is no breeze) and probably more likely to get drenched seeing how the hoppers let the rain in.

I think the 158 hopper windows are a sensible compromise, but that management should make sure the crew are trained in when to use them.

I find it a common occurrence on public transport for people to cough and sneeze without covering their mouths and spreading their germs to other passengers. At least with opening windows you can open them and get some fresh air. 61653 HTAFC said that people were not dressing accordingly and then complaining if it was too hot on a train. However, the weather has been so changeable you just don't know what to wear.

I can emphasize with you about your Hayfever. I have got a severe allergy to dust and the symptoms are similar, but it has gone on to cause nasal polyps.

Parallel · 29 Aug 2019

I would argue that 80% of the GWR 158s’ aircon doesn’t work!! :lol:

hexagon789 · 29 Aug 2019

507021 said:
Agree 100%.

If SWT managed it, why can't other TOCs?

ed1971 · 29 Aug 2019

Parallel said:
I would argue that 80% of the GWR 158s’ aircon doesn’t work!!

I went on one of Northern's Perkins engined 158s between Bradford and Rochdale recently. Not only did the A/C not work, the carpet looked like it had not been vacuum cleaned for a decade!

Energy · 29 Aug 2019

ed1971 said:
I went on one of Northern's Perkins engined 158s between Bradford and Rochdale recently. Not only did the A/C not work, the carpet looked like it had not been vacuum cleaned for a decade!

Its Arriva so they probably got the cheapest carpet possible from a skip!

Bletchleyite · 29 Aug 2019

Energy said:
Its Arriva so they probably got the cheapest carpet possible from a skip!

To be fair, the Arriva Trains Wales Class 158 refurb is alongside the ScotRail Inverness and EMT ones as up with the best.

Energy · 29 Aug 2019

Bletchleyite said:
To be fair, the Arriva Trains Wales Class 158 refurb is alongside the ScotRail Inverness and EMT ones as up with the best.

Didn't the welsh government throw money at Arriva?

Class 158s - should the opening hopper windows be sealed?

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