Emergency alarm for skipped stop?

Robin87 · 30 Aug 2019

I am new to this forum and I have signed up to ask this question as I cannot seem to get a definitive answer anywhere.

Scotrail are known for the practice of 'stop skipping'. Stop skipping is when a train deliberately fails to stop at a station that it is scheduled to stop at. This is done if a train is running late and needs to 'make up time'. Scotrail were supposed to put an end to this process years ago, but it still goes on regularly:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...stations-2000-times-in-one-year-report-finds/

The problem is that it risks leaving disabled people such as myself stranded. If I am returning home by train and I have my car parked at a certain station and the train fails to stop for this scheduled station, then I am left at another station without my car to get back home! This would cause me to suffer a potentially huge panic attack.

My question is: Would it be acceptable for a person with a disability to hit the emergency alarm IF the train failed to stop for a station that it was scheduled to stop at AND there had been NO prior warning BEFORE the train set-off that it would not be stopping at that station?

Sorry if this is a ridiculous question. I just want to know where I would stand legally as I wouldn't want to get into trouble. I am on the autistic spectrum and I have a disabled railcard.

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Spartacus · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
I am new to this forum and I have signed up to ask this question as I cannot seem to get a definitive answer anywhere.

Scotrail are known for the practice of 'stop skipping'. Stop skipping is when a train deliberately fails to stop at a station that it is scheduled to stop at. This is done if a train is running late and needs to 'make up time'. Scotrail were supposed to put an end to this process years ago, but it still goes on regularly:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...stations-2000-times-in-one-year-report-finds/

The problem is that it risks leaving disabled people such as myself stranded. If I am returning home by train and I have my car parked at a certain station and the train fails to stop for this scheduled station, then I am left at another station without my car to get back home! This would cause me to suffer a potentially huge panic attack.

My question is: Would it be acceptable for a person with a disability to hit the emergency alarm IF the train failed to stop for a station that it was scheduled to stop at AND there had been NO prior warning BEFORE the train set-off that it would not be stopping at that station?

Sorry if this is a ridiculous question. I just want to know where I would stand legally as I wouldn't want to get into trouble. I am on the autistic spectrum and I have a disabled railcard.

Not really, and if you think about it logically all you’d do is get home later than you otherwise would as your train would stop half a mile after your station anyway and the crew would have to spend time resetting the pass-com. Same goes for if the driver forgets, which happens occasionally. If there’s not a frequent service back Scotrail should be providing a taxi back, or at the very least will reimburse your cost of getting one yourself.

krus_aragon · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
My question is: Would it be acceptable for a person with a disability to hit the emergency alarm IF the train failed to stop for a station that it was scheduled to stop at AND there had been NO prior warning BEFORE the train set-off that it would not be stopping at that station?

Sorry if this is a ridiculous question. I just want to know where I would stand legally as I wouldn't want to get into trouble. I am on the autistic spectrum and I have a disabled railcard.

The Railway Bylaws state that you mustn't activate an emergency system or communication system "without reasonable cause".

You ask about a situation where there was no announcement about the skip-stopping before the train departed. If there was an announcement after the train departed, I'd say you'd been informed of the change of plans, and pulling the pass-com to stop the train generally wouldn't be reasonable. (It'd still be bad practice on the railway's part to have informed you so late, but that's something to take up with customer services.)

There have been discussion threads in the past about whether it's acceptable to activate the pass-com if a train fails to stop, so I won't repeat those discussions. (Here's a link to one of the recent threads.)

If you have a disability that means it will be dificult for you to get off at another stop and double back (e.g. you have booked passenger assistance at the skipped station) and you haven't been able to speak to a member of staff, I'd say that using the pass-com would be quite reasonable. In this instance, the red alarm buttons around the wheelchair accomodation are a better choice than those by the doors, as it isn't an emergency that needs the driver to stop immediately in the middle of nowhere to fix; a guard or other member of staff should be able to help you.

LCC106 · 30 Aug 2019

Welcome to the forum Robin87. This is a good question. As Spartacus has said, it would delay you even further. I agree, Scotrail should pay for a taxi back in this situation. The best thing to do is to alert the guard and ask them to arrange a taxi or confirm that Scotrail will pay for one.

duncanp · 30 Aug 2019

Does your train have a conductor or a guard?

If so, it is worth letting him or her know that you wish to get off at a particular station.

This might lessen the possibility of them skipping that stop in the first place, or if the stop is skipped, at least they know that they have to make alternative arrangements for you.

If a stop really does have to be skipped, an announcement should be made at the previous stop, so that at least people are aware of the situation.

LCC106 · 30 Aug 2019

Good point duncanp!

cuccir · 30 Aug 2019

krus_aragon said:
The Railway Bylaws state that you mustn't activate an emergency system or communication system "without reasonable cause".

Do the railway Byelaws apply in Scotland? I know they form part of English and Welsh law but am less confident that they apply in Scotland. Furthermore, Scottish courts don't take private prosecutions and to the best of my knowledge no-one other than private rail companies ever really bother bringing prosecutions under the Bylaws so even if they apply, they're not enforced.

There is a more practical reason, as outlined, that pressing this would likely cause a longer delay to a journey.

krus_aragon · 30 Aug 2019

cuccir said:
Do the railway Byelaws apply in Scotland? I know they form part of English and Welsh law but am less confident that they apply in Scotland.

I believe so, but I am not very knowledgeable on Scots law.

Bylaw 14 has portions that refer specifically to England and Wales (14.4), and to Scotland (14.5), so I'd conclude that the others apply equally to both.

theironroad · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
I am new to this forum and I have signed up to ask this question as I cannot seem to get a definitive answer anywhere.

Scotrail are known for the practice of 'stop skipping'. Stop skipping is when a train deliberately fails to stop at a station that it is scheduled to stop at. This is done if a train is running late and needs to 'make up time'. Scotrail were supposed to put an end to this process years ago, but it still goes on regularly:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...stations-2000-times-in-one-year-report-finds/

The problem is that it risks leaving disabled people such as myself stranded. If I am returning home by train and I have my car parked at a certain station and the train fails to stop for this scheduled station, then I am left at another station without my car to get back home! This would cause me to suffer a potentially huge panic attack.

My question is: Would it be acceptable for a person with a disability to hit the emergency alarm IF the train failed to stop for a station that it was scheduled to stop at AND there had been NO prior warning BEFORE the train set-off that it would not be stopping at that station?

Sorry if this is a ridiculous question. I just want to know where I would stand legally as I wouldn't want to get into trouble. I am on the autistic spectrum and I have a disabled railcard.

If there had be no prior warning before the train set out then all passengers would be in the same position.

The reason or delay for skip stopping might not have existed when the train set out and these decisions are made in real time in order to recover the service. It would be expected that there is a suitable opportunity to change trains before the stops are eliminated and appropriate announcements made, generally the only time when they might not happen is if there is a last minute police request for trains not to stop at a station.

Emergency alarms are for that purpose, emergencies. Fire, derailment , serious threat to life such as a gunman etc and other such emergency scenarios not trains failing to stop at a station, intended or otherwise.

I realise that it would be very inconvenient to miss your stop but I'm sure any TOC like do their utmost to reunite you with your car asap.

I know skip stopping can be inconvenient and is controversial but skip stopping and turning trains around short of their destination are major tools for service recovery for the rest of the day as otherwise the rolling stock and crew may well run late all day and especially in busy traffic areas this can cause knock on delays to many other services as well.

Having said that, if you're aware before hand that your stop will be skipped I would suggest speaking to staff at the station you board or the guard etc and the control centre will take the specific circumstances of the case into account and may reinstate a stop in special circumstances.

Antman · 30 Aug 2019

In fairness skipping stops can be the only way to get a late running train back on time although obviously it will greatly inconvenience anyone wanting to get on or off at one of the skipped stops. I don't know about the legal aspect but the train will have probably cleared the station by the time it comes to a halt if the alarm is used. There should most certainly be prior warning though.

Robin87 · 30 Aug 2019

duncanp said:
Does your train have a conductor or a guard?

If so, it is worth letting him or her know that you wish to get off at a particular station.

This might lessen the possibility of them skipping that stop in the first place, or if the stop is skipped, at least they know that they have to make alternative arrangements for you.

If a stop really does have to be skipped, an announcement should be made at the previous stop, so that at least people are aware of the situation.

Yes, Scotrail trains have guards. The newer trains (385s) on the Glasgow-Edinburgh line are 7 carriages long though and being someone with autism who finds it difficult to stand up and walk an entire train to find a member of staff to speak with presents challenges that would be too difficult to even begin explaining here.

Robin87 · 30 Aug 2019

theironroad said:
If there had be no prior warning before the train set out then all passengers would be in the same position.

The reason or delay for skip stopping might not have existed when the train set out and these decisions are made in real time in order to recover the service. It would be expected that there is a suitable opportunity to change trains before the stops are eliminated and appropriate announcements made, generally the only time when they might not happen is if there is a last minute police request for trains not to stop at a station.

Emergency alarms are for that purpose, emergencies. Fire, derailment , serious threat to life such as a gunman etc and other such emergency scenarios not trains failing to stop at a station, intended or otherwise.

I realise that it would be very inconvenient to miss your stop but I'm sure any TOC like do their utmost to reunite you with your car asap.

I know skip stopping can be inconvenient and is controversial but skip stopping and turning trains around short of their destination are major tools for service recovery for the rest of the day as otherwise the rolling stock and crew may well run late all day and especially in busy traffic areas this can cause knock on delays to many other services as well.

Having said that, if you're aware before hand that your stop will be skipped I would suggest speaking to staff at the station you board or the guard etc and the control centre will take the specific circumstances of the case into account and may reinstate a stop in special circumstances.

I simply wouldn't board a train if I knew in advance that it would be skipping my stop. My worry is about boarding a train that has a scheduled stop, only for that train to then skip that stop. Possibly without any prior warning or announcement.

I realise now that it would most likely end up causing more delays unfortunately. My reasoning though, as bizarre as this may sound to members, is that if I do this then it might challenge the status quo if just ONE passenger is willing to stand up and take action. Having a disability would possibly help my case maybe?

ComUtoR · 30 Aug 2019

Think about it logically. Your train skips its booked stop without prior warning. You have to realise, get up, find the Passcom, pull the passcom. The train, which is travelling at speed. needs time and distance to brake. By the time the train actually stops (if not overridden by the Driver) you are well past your station. There is a limit to which a train can 'set back' into the platform it has just overshot.

It doesn't solve anything. The station is still missed.

krus_aragon · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
My reasoning though, as bizarre as this may sound to members, is that if I do this then it might challenge the status quo if just ONE passenger is willing to stand up and take action. Having a disability would possibly help my case maybe?

It might be worth thinking what it is about the status quo that you want to change. Is it the lack of announcements? Is it the fact that skip stops are used at all?

Do bear in mind that Scotrail have a financial penalty for skipping stops: the Scottish Government made sure to include that in the franchise contract. One extra voice on top of that may not achieve much more (depending on what exactly your goal is).

Robin87 · 30 Aug 2019

krus_aragon said:
It might be worth thinking what it is about the status quo that you want to change. Is it the lack of announcements? Is it the fact that skip stops are used at all?

Do bear in mind that Scotrail have a financial penalty for skipping stops: the Scottish Government made sure to include that in the franchise contract. One extra voice on top of that may not achieve much more (depending on what exactly your goal is).

My reasoning here is a thing called the "bystander effect". There could be many people on that train who are angry that their stop has been skipped, but are unwilling to speak up in fear of causing a scene. If just one person makes a big deal out of it though, and that person has a disability to help their case, then it may just help bring needed change.

Bertie the bus · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
I realise now that it would most likely end up causing more delays unfortunately. My reasoning though, as bizarre as this may sound to members, is that if I do this then it might challenge the status quo if just ONE passenger is willing to stand up and take action. Having a disability would possibly help my case maybe?

No. Having a disability isn’t a valid reason for behaving selfishly and irresponsibly, and inconveniencing hundreds of other people just to make a point.

Antman · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
My reasoning here is a thing called the "bystander effect". There could be many people on that train who are angry that their stop has been skipped, but are unwilling to speak up in fear of causing a scene. If just one person makes a big deal out of it though, and that person has a disability to help their case, then it may just help bring needed change.

In my experience most rail users aren't slow to speak up and I've seen arguments about skipped stops and the driver has just given in and agreed to stop there.

trebor79 · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
My reasoning here is a thing called the "bystander effect". There could be many people on that train who are angry that their stop has been skipped, but are unwilling to speak up in fear of causing a scene. If just one person makes a big deal out of it though, and that person has a disability to help their case, then it may just help bring needed change.

Many years ago I and others were in exactly this situation. Someone got up and said they were going to pull the handle. They were quickly advised in no uncertain terms not to do so, as it would simply delay all of us even further in getting home.

The correct response is to get to TOC to make arrangements to get your destination station, at their cost and follow up with a letter of complaint.
They don't skip stops out of malice, so why you think pulling the handle out of malice is an acceptable or reasonable response is not clear.

krus_aragon · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
My reasoning here is a thing called the "bystander effect". There could be many people on that train who are angry that their stop has been skipped, but are unwilling to speak up in fear of causing a scene. If just one person makes a big deal out of it though, and that person has a disability to help their case, then it may just help bring needed change.

I'm guessing from your answer that your objective is to stop Scotrail from skipping stops (as opposed to concerns that they're not keeping passengers informed, or helping those that need to double back).

As others have explained, once a train has passed a station it's not practical to set back (reverse) back to the station, and there'll be other trains following behind, too. Forcing an emergency stop when you know in advance that the train isn't going to call isn't going to make you very popular with the on-board staff, and I'm not sure how much of a defence a non-visible disability would be in the heat of the moment.

I would advise you not to try this. I think you've already come to that conclusion, though.

ijmad · 30 Aug 2019

duncanp said:
Does your train have a conductor or a guard?

If so, it is worth letting him or her know that you wish to get off at a particular station.

This might lessen the possibility of them skipping that stop in the first place, or if the stop is skipped, at least they know that they have to make alternative arrangements for you.

If a stop really does have to be skipped, an announcement should be made at the previous stop, so that at least people are aware of the situation.

If you are in a wheelchair, and it's in the wheelchair position on the train, finding the conductor either before or after the event might be difficult, given you're not exactly able to move up and down the train looking for them. How long is someone supposed to wait for the conductor to pass by? One stop? Two stops? The situation could become much more problematic quickly.

krus_aragon · 30 Aug 2019

ijmad said:
If you are in a wheelchair, and it's in the wheelchair position on the train, finding the conductor either before or after the event might be difficult, given you're not exactly able to move up and down the train looking for them. How long is someone supposed to wait for the conductor to pass by? One stop? Two stops? The situation could become much more problematic quickly.

That's why there are "call for aid" buttons next to wheelchair spaces (and in accessible toilets) to summon a member of staff. But the OP has explained that the disability in this case doesn't relate to wheelchair use.

Spartacus · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
My reasoning here is a thing called the "bystander effect". There could be many people on that train who are angry that their stop has been skipped, but are unwilling to speak up in fear of causing a scene. If just one person makes a big deal out of it though, and that person has a disability to help their case, then it may just help bring needed change.

The problem is that the alternative is likely to terminate the train short of it’s destination. For every one you ‘help’ there’ll be another who who inconvenience, except they’re less likely to have another train to get them home anytime soon and the ends of routes usually have less frequent services than places where skip-stopping normally occurs.

Bletchleyite · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
My reasoning here is a thing called the "bystander effect". There could be many people on that train who are angry that their stop has been skipped, but are unwilling to speak up in fear of causing a scene. If just one person makes a big deal out of it though, and that person has a disability to help their case, then it may just help bring needed change.

All that's needed is better handling of disabilities and communication. The stop-skipping is justified so the whole service does not end up in a mess, and it would be highly inappropriate to use the passcom to attempt to prevent it. It happens more often these days because of a tendency to more complex diagramming - in simpler days you could cancel an entire round trip to sort it.

ijmad · 30 Aug 2019

krus_aragon said:
That's why there are "call for aid" buttons next to wheelchair spaces (and in accessible toilets) to summon a member of staff. But the OP has explained that the disability in this case doesn't relate to wheelchair use.

Sure, I was just asking a slightly broader question. I haven't noticed the call for aid buttons. Are they present on all trains that meet the new requirements?

krus_aragon · 30 Aug 2019

ijmad said:
Sure, I was just asking a slightly broader question. I haven't noticed the call for aid buttons. Are they present on all trains that meet the new requirements?

I've come across them in TfW's refitted 175s 158s, and 150s iirc.

Mojo · 30 Aug 2019

krus_aragon said:
That's why there are "call for aid" buttons next to wheelchair spaces (and in accessible toilets) to summon a member of staff. But the OP has explained that the disability in this case doesn't relate to wheelchair use.

Only on certain stocks, and even on those on which it is present it doesn’t exactly look like the type of button to press for that purpose.

mmh · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
I simply wouldn't board a train if I knew in advance that it would be skipping my stop. My worry is about boarding a train that has a scheduled stop, only for that train to then skip that stop. Possibly without any prior warning or announcement.

Does that happen? My experience of skipped stops has been that it's usually announced before the arrival / departure of the train when it's already known, but of course you could already be on the train...

Robin87 said:
I realise now that it would most likely end up causing more delays unfortunately. My reasoning though, as bizarre as this may sound to members, is that if I do this then it might challenge the status quo if just ONE passenger is willing to stand up and take action. Having a disability would possibly help my case maybe?

I think there are potential situations around skipped stops where pulling the alarm is perfectly justified. Someone is on a train waiting for it to depart, they needed assistance to board using a ramp. Just before departure an announcement's made that the train will be running fast beyond their destination. They should use the alarm, they can't leave the train by themselves.

"Using the alarm causes delays" is not a good justification for not using it, despite that being a popular view here.

theironroad · 30 Aug 2019

mmh said:
Does that happen? My experience of skipped stops has been that it's usually announced before the arrival / departure of the train when it's already known, but of course you could already be on the train...

I think there are potential situations around skipped stops where pulling the alarm is perfectly justified. Someone is on a train waiting for it to depart, they needed assistance to board using a ramp. Just before departure an announcement's made that the train will be running fast beyond their destination. They should use the alarm, they can't leave the train by themselves.

"Using the alarm causes delays" is not a good justification for not using it, despite that being a popular view here.

I think it is very rare for there to be no prior announcement that a station will be skipped.

In your scenario that once onboard and prior to departure it's announced that a stop you need will be missed, then yeah, using a call for aid would be absolutely appropriate imo.

On modern stock, the driver can legitimately override the brake demand that would result from a passcom in order to stop the train in a controlled manner where appropriate help can be sought.

Helvellyn · 30 Aug 2019

As others have said skip-stopping isn't a penalty-free action for ScotRail (or any other TOC). Unfortunately when it is done a number of passengers will be impacted, potentially quite badly, which if the train is already running late (which is invariably why skip-stopping is done) means those impacted feel extremely short-changed. But these are tough decisions that have to be made - a more severe impact on a small number of passengers, or spreading/continued disruption that ends up impacting a greater number of passengers over a longer period of time.

Whilst it can happen once a train has started its journey it should be the case that the skipped stops are announced in advance and those affected get off and either wait for the next train or alternate arrangements are put in place. My experience of where people then miss their stop due to skip-stopping is they didn't hear announcements, e.g. ear phones in. Wheelchair users shouldn't be left trapped on board. However, I accept that somebody with hearing problems (or language issues, e.g. foreign tourists) are harder to identify and are a group at risk of being over-carried.

Robin87 · 30 Aug 2019

Bertie the bus said:
No. Having a disability isn’t a valid reason for behaving selfishly and irresponsibly, and inconveniencing hundreds of other people just to make a point.

I would not be doing this maliciously, nor would it be a 'hoax'. I was just wondering where I would stand legally if I were to do such a thing. If a train fails to stop at a scheduled station without a prior announcement, then one could possibly come to the conclusion that there is a problem with the train, such as brake failure or hijacking (unlikely but still possible).
I will probably be accused of being 'obtuse' now, but I'm just interested in what the outcome would be as I'm not aware of any precedent for such a thing. It would be an interesting 'test case' imo.

Emergency alarm for skipped stop?

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