TVMs Charging Peak Hour Fares On Bank Holiday!!!

This is just to say I arrived Today (Bank Holiday Monday August 26th 2019) at the auto barriered entry only side of Horsham station so had to buy a ticket from the TVMs there before the barriers to gain entrance to the station to catch my train.

On selecting Cowes East and Return from the ticket purchase options the only ticket offered to purchase was a same day single or return Anytime ticket as clearly Southern doesn't bother programming their machines to know about Bank Holidays as it is presumably much cheaper and more profitable for them to commit criminal theft from customers by over charging them. This is even though all the terms and conditions for discount railcards of various flavours (mine is a Network Rail card) quite clearly state that the one third discount is available at any time on a bank holidays as well as on a saturday or sunday.

I was in a hurry to get my train but knew straight away I was being charged the wrong fare as I knew the correct fare with the one third discount from looking it up on the National Rail and Southern Rail websites where the one third network card discount on a bank holiday at any time is offered but as with various other anomalies such as not offering Ryde Hoverport as a destination on their TVMs (freely available to buy as a ticket to from a manned ticket window) it seems that Southern feels that having dispensed with human manpower also allows them to get things wrong and not offer the full fare range from the automated machines.

My journey was from Horsham to East Cowes on the Isle of Wight but on getting to Southampton Central I found that the same fiasco of the ticket machines not being programmed to know it is a bank holiday (so trying to charge peak hour fares up to 9.30am - Off Peak fares - or 10am - Network Card and other railcard fares of various kinds) also prevailed on South West Trains ticket vending machines. As a result of this South West trains had totally disabled all their full scale TVMs and there was consequently a massive queue of around 20 people at a single manned ticket window with the station barriers also active and manned and kept shut against the many passengers who would have missed their trains while they had to queue for up to half an hour to reach the ticket window to buy a ticket.

So now I have had to pay over £37 for a ticket that should have cost me just over £22 and now have to submit a complaint with the tickets in the hope that I will not be robbed of around £15. But it isn't just me who is being legally robbed by the rail companies but thousands of other customers travelling before 10am on a Bank Holiday.

Now may be this problem isn't widely known because a lot of people don't get out of bed that early on a Bank Holiday Monday but I find it utterly scandalous that the rail regulator is allowing this situation to occur and isn't imposing large fines and penalties on any rail company that shows this much disregard for the rights of all rail passengers to be charged the correct fare by the automated ticket robots that are slowly but surely replacing manned ticket windows at most stations and more and more times of day (as at many stations there are no longer any manned ticket windows at all at either all times or at least during large parts of the day).

I would be interested to hear from anyone else who has encountered this same problem before 10am earlier today and to also receive an explanation as to how the rail companies are being allowed to get away with such criminally incompetent programming of their ticketing machines...........

Was there an open ticket office at Horsham you could have bought the ticket you wanted from?

TVMs sometimes have fares missing and offer more expensive than necessary ticket types, sometimes more prominently than the appropriate type. As such TVMs are not designed to be used by customers who haven't been through training to determine if they actually sell the correct ticket for their journey. At one of my local stations the most prominently displayed fare on the TVM on weekends is the Anytime Day Travelcard. Some people buy it and others wait until after 0930 to travel.

If there's an open ticket office, make use of it, otherwise buy your ticket at the first practicable opportunity. Or if you can, buy online then collect from the TVM.

Doesn't the rail industry offer a TVM guarantee? ISTR something about this a couple of years ago.

I'd contact GTR explaining what happened seeking a refund between the price paid and what you should've paid.

Sorry you had this experience, it sounds very annoying. Was there a button on TVM that said “tickets for later/tomorrow” or the like?

You could have put in todays date and say 13:00 and it would have brought up a list of off-peak fares for you to choose from

BluePenguin said:

You could have put in todays date and say 13:00 and it would have brought up a list of off-peak fares for you to choose from

Click to expand...

That would only have allowed a ticket to be purchased for the selected date.

Haywain said:

That would only have allowed a ticket to be purchased for the selected date.

Click to expand...

Although you hit the button to select a ticket for a future date, you can then select today's date, and just set the time to 13:00, as BluePenguin suggested, so you are getting the machine to offer forward timed tickets for today.

Iggy12a said:

Although you hit the button to select a ticket for a future date, you can then select today's date, and just set the time to 13:00, as BluePenguin suggested, so you are getting the machine to offer forward timed tickets for today.

Click to expand...

I was well aware that you could use one of the large full scale TVMs to buy a ticket from a station other than the one you are travelling from and/or on another date but I didn't know you could also use that function to buy one from a TVM starting from the station you are actually buying it from at a later time the same day (i.e. after Network card fares become valid on a normal weekday). But even if I had done this I think you will find the barriers (this bank of barriers is unmanned) then wouldn't have opened when I inserted that ticket because they are programmed not to allow a network card ticket through before 10am (assuming they also didn't know about the different fare rules on a Bank Holiday Monday).

At the time I only had about 4 to 5 minutes until train departure and my only other option would have been to press a button to summon assistance at the unmanned barrier points (a button I was only aware even existed from a previous experience where I couldn't buy a ticket from the same Southern TVM to Ryde Hoverport), wait for someone to answer it and let me through the barriers remotely and then go and queue up at the ticket window on the other side of the station. As that queue was likely to be quite long (if the window was even manned as it might not have been on a Bank Holiday Monday as there are a large number of TVMs in the main Horsham ticket hall and clearly there wouldn't be normal season ticket buyers etc that day) and move slowly and I would have also had to negotiate the stairs and the overbridge again to reach the platform for Southampton trains I would have been at severe risk of missing both the 10.31am and 10.34am services to Southampton (the latter involves a connection en route and the former is a direct service) and the next trains were not for another hour.

At the end of the day the point is that I made the journey on a Bank Holiday where the TVM should have sold me a Network card fare from the start of the day and should not have treated the day as being a normal Monday where those tickets were not available until 10am. So as far I am concerned Southern either tried to defraud me by charging me a peak hour fare on a day when such fares were not applicable or alternatively they were massively negligent so in either case they should not only have to refund me the difference in fare but also pay me some form of compensation in vouchers to use on a future rail journey or similar to apologise for the inconvenience, stress and large amount of work caused to put me back in the position I would have been had they not made this error. Saying I could go to a manned window is not a reasonable solution as on arriving at Southampton Central station (my destination in rail terms but not my final ticket destination, which was East Cowes on the Isle of Wight at the other end of the Red Funnel ferry route) the manned window had a 10 to 15 person deep queue because South West Trains had switched off all the full scale TVMs. When I enquired why they had done this they told me it was so that pasengers would not be overcharged for their tickets. So in other words the ticket machines of South West Trains were also not programmed to know about bank holiday mondays and sell Network Card or any other railcard fares that only offer a discount after 10am on a normal Monday from the start of business on Bank Holiday Monday. And because they also refused to open the barriers and let people buy their tickets from the train supervisor (AKA Guard) on the train they were travelling on they would have caused large numbers of travelling passengers to miss their trains as the queue looked it would take up to 30 minutes to negotiate.

So if I encounter this situation again then I like you expert geeks here I will now be aware there is a work around (the other one is clearly to buy the ticket online and then use the function to collect pre purchased tickets from the machine) that stops me being over charged. But until either Southern Rail or Network Rail fix this problem (noting that South West trains also had this problem with their ticket machines) then ordinary passengers will go on being over charged and some of they may not even be aware they should have paid a lower fare (as this problem would also affect the sale of ordinary Off Peak tickets before 9.30am on Bank Holiday Monday) and so may never get their money back. In fact I may never get my money back if I lose the tickets from the journey and do not now go through a long and tortuous overcharge reclaim process that I may also get no compensation for having to go through..................

Haywain said:

That would only have allowed a ticket to be purchased for the selected date.

Click to expand...

So it also appears that Haywain agrees with me that you can't actually use the buy the tickets from other stations and/or on other dates function to buy a ticket from the station you are currently at for later on today?...................

I also note this post five years ago by Mike at https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/peak-off-peak-and-caps/ where he says:-

Ticket machines are notorious for not getting the off-peak restrictions right, usually by refusing to sell off-peak tickets at the right time. In your case it looks like your son was undercharged.

Click to expand...

This is precisely the sort of thing the Office of Rail and Road ought to come down like a ton of bricks on with a large fine if the rail companies fail to solve it going forwards.

EDIT:- The Office of Rail and Road claims that they are not responsible for controlling the fare charging activities of the rail companies and that only the Department For Transport (who awards the franchises) controls this issue.

FURTHER EDIT:- It would appear that as with the fiasco over Ryde Hoverport the people who have significant capacity to influence the resolution of these issues are www.raildeliverygroup.com, who provide pooled infrastructure, such as fares database resources for ticketing, to the whole rail industry. Bottom line is that this issue clearly requires an email to the CEO of Southern and copying it to interested parties such as the CEO of Rail Delivery Group, Radio 4 YouandYours and Moneybox programs and whoever is the top banana at the Department For Transport responsible for awarding rail franchises. And then just possibly but not probably Southern, SouthWestern and all the other rail companies might both getting off their respective corporate behinds to fix a problem that is costing customers lots of money but making them extra money to which they are not entitled.............

RJ said:

TVMs are not designed to be used by customers who haven't been through training

Click to expand...

I hope this is sarcasm or a lament!!!

I'd agree wholeheartedly that customers should always be offered the lowest fare appropriate for their journey, accounting for which day it is, without having to jump through hoops (like, faking a later departure time) to find it.

As with all such cases, if the whole business were equitable, affected customers should be compensated in the same way as if the situation were reversed and it were the customer who failed in their responsibility - for example, reverse penalty fares payable to the customer.

Such a requirement might focus the TOCs minds a bit.

Harpers Tate said:

I'd agree wholeheartedly that customers should always be offered the lowest fare appropriate for their journey, accounting for which day it is, without having to jump through hoops (like, faking a later departure time) to find it.

As with all such cases, if the whole business were equitable, affected customers should be compensated in the same way as if the situation were reversed and it were the customer who failed in their responsibility - for example, reverse penalty fares payable to the customer.

Such a requirement might focus the TOCs minds a bit.

Click to expand...

So when is that going to happen by the DfT mandating this in the franchises of the rail operators and/or The Rail Delivery Group (who may or may not be franchised by the DfT but appear to possibly be a significant party in terms of deficient ticketing infrastructure IT used by the rail companies that makes this possible) and then imposing large fines if they continue to break these conditions after suitable reminders and warnings that they are doing so?

Camden said:

I hope this is sarcasm or a lament!!!

Click to expand...

I'm not even being saracastic. TOCs tend to be very good at programming the TVMs to suppress the sale of off peak tickets at peak times. Yet on weekends, Bank Holidays and other off peak times, Anytime Day fares are sometimes very prominently displayed as popular fares on the first screen the customer sees - or Off Peak fares when they offer no additional validity over Super Off Peak fares. Certain types of Off Peak ticket seem to be completely missing from some TVMs.

To ensure you get the appropriate fare from TVMs, as a customer you actually need to be pre-clued up on what the price should be and what ticket type you need - and confident enough in your knowledge to be able to tell when the appropriate fare is missing, like the OP was. Otherwise it's left to chance and there's a possibility you'll end up paying more than you would if a ticket office or guard sold you the ticket.

Somebody clever will dismiss it as a rare case with Cowes as the destination. But how many TVM sales are there of ADTs on non-working days, or TVM sales of SDRs within London where a Travelcard is cheaper? TVMs are not always optimised for the unfamiliar to easily find the most appropriate fare!

There are many situations where, sadly, there is a difference between what life should be like and what it actually is like. The ongoing reluctance of either DfT or ORR to take action to correct a myriad of issues, such as this, with TVMs is unfortunately another one of these. It would be great if these problems weren't there, but they are and are likely to remain so. The best thing IMHO is to make liberal use of brfares.com to identify the right fare, then use a ticket buying app and finally pick up the ticket from the TVM. Or to arrive 15 mins in advance to allow time for a debate with ticket office staff if needed. Certainly not how things should be, but is how things are.

Gerald Fiennes said:

There are many situations where, sadly, there is a difference between what life should be like and what it actually is like. The ongoing reluctance of either DfT or ORR to take action to correct a myriad of issues, such as this, with TVMs is unfortunately another one of these. It would be great if these problems weren't there, but they are and are likely to remain so. The best thing IMHO is to make liberal use of brfares.com to identify the right fare, then use a ticket buying app and finally pick up the ticket from the TVM. Or to arrive 15 mins in advance to allow time for a debate with ticket office staff if needed. Certainly not how things should be, but is how things are.

Click to expand...

This is just to add that after calling them and leaving a voicemail I received a phone call earlier on yesterday (Friday 30th August) from Jacqueline Starr, who said she was Chief Operating Officer of Rail Delivery Group (although the website info at www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/governance/executive-team.html still has her listed as Managing Director of Customer Experience but perhaps Susie Homan has left recently and their two roles have now been consolidated), to assure me personally that she is having the question of why Southern's TVM at Horsham could not sell me an off peak and/or Network Card discounted fare before 10am on a Bank Holiday and also why SouthWestern had their ticket machines in the main booking hall at Southampton Central all showing Out of Service (the staff there alleged this was so as to stop customers buying the "wrong ticket" that was too expensive before 10am, even though this action resulted in a 15 person deep queue for only one open manned ticket window while staff also failed to open or let non ticketed passengers through the automatic barriers so they did not miss their planned train) investigated further and that she will get back in touch with me when this investigation is completed.

She also indicated that legally speaking the ticket machines offering customers the correct ticket is the responsibility of each rail operating company but also seemed to concede that the technical ticketing infrastructure provided by Rail Delivery Group and the ability of the rail operating companies to design systems that properly interacted with it also had a fair bit to do with the ranges of fares offered by the ticket machines of each train operating company............

Some of the proud boast of Rail Delivery Group about how they are supposed to be making it easier for us all to buy a ticket can be found at:-

www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/publications.html?task=file.download&id=469771037

Capvermell said:

This is just to add that after calling them and leaving a voicemail I received a phone call earlier on yesterday (Friday 30th August) from Jacqueline Starr, who said she was Chief Operating Officer of Rail Delivery Group (although the website info at www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/governance/executive-team.html still has her listed as Managing Director of Customer Experience but perhaps Susie Homan has left recently and their two roles have now been consolidated), to assure me personally that she is having the question of why Southern's TVM at Horsham could not sell me an off peak and/or Network Card discounted fare before 10am on a Bank Holiday and also why SouthWestern had their ticket machines in the main booking hall at Southampton Central all showing Out of Service (the staff there alleged this was so as to stop customers buying the "wrong ticket" that was too expensive before 10am, even though this action resulted in a 15 person deep queue for only one open manned ticket window while staff also failed to open or let non ticketed passengers through the automatic barriers so they did not miss their planned train) investigated further and that she will get back in touch with me when this investigation is completed.

She also indicated that legally speaking the ticket machines offering customers the correct ticket is the responsibility of each rail operating company but also seemed to concede that the technical ticketing infrastructure provided by Rail Delivery Group and the ability of the rail operating companies to design systems that properly interacted with it also had a fair bit to do with the ranges of fares offered by the ticket machines of each train operating company............

Some of the proud boast of Rail Delivery Group about how they are supposed to be making it easier for us all to buy a ticket can be found at:-

www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/publications.html?task=file.download&id=469771037

Click to expand...

Good to hear that you have at least secured some of Ms Starr's time to consider this issue (which if I were her would be annoying to have to waste as a result of member TOCs not doing key tasks properly - ie if they want to save money reducing staffed ticket offices then they need to accept they must SPEND money ensuring the robots they have bought instead - TVMs in this case, work properly - or simplify the product on offer so the robot can cope).

GWR's TVMs at Blackwater do not offer the (Weekend) Super Off Peak tickets for destinations heading away from the London that are priced by SWR e.g. Blackwater - Farnham. Nor do they offer point to point tickets to many London stations where better value NOT VIA LONDON fares are available. Both issues are longstanding.

Presumably if passengers were entitled to the fare difference plus a £50 compensatory payment for the trouble in pointing it out to the rail operator in question then most of these automated ticketing machine anomalies would then magically be solved...……….

Capvermell said:

Presumably if passengers were entitled to the fare difference plus a £50 compensatory payment for the trouble in pointing it out to the rail operator in question then most of these automated ticketing machine anomalies would then magically be solved...……….

Click to expand...

Yes, it's the sort of issue that especially angers people:

You get on our trains without the right ticket and we have a fairly full array of penalties (up to criminal sanction) to levy on you.
vs
We overcharge you - you can have a refund if you find out and ask us for it (fingers crossed that staff we employ to process such requests can understand why you are entitled to that...)

WesternLancer said:

We overcharge you - you can have a refund if you find out and ask us for it (fingers crossed that staff we employ to process such requests can understand why you are entitled to that...)

Click to expand...

Yes as in I couldn't buy the correct ticket from the machine I was entitled to (Off Peak Day Return discount by 33% with Network Card) and then even though their was a guard/train superisor/manager on the train with a ticket machine they couldn't refund me that just purchased ticket there and then and issue me with the correct one.

Instead I have to claim on a manual paper and wait weeks for a refund that may never come with no compensation for all the hassle involved.

Most customers then forget and they pocket the overcharge...…………….

If you're pursuing this, you need to remind the ORR of its duties to investigate (and if need be prosecute) under consumer law - its documents sometimes seem to portray a relationship with the train companies that appears rather cosy for what is meant to be a regulator. https://orr.gov.uk/rail/consumers/consumer-law

furlong said:

If you're pursuing this, you need to remind the ORR of its duties to investigate (and if need be prosecute) under consumer law - its documents sometimes seem to portray a relationship with the train companies that appears rather cosy for what is meant to be a regulator. https://orr.gov.uk/rail/consumers/consumer-law

Click to expand...

You appear to mean that the ORR seems to have the some concerning relationship with the companies it is supposed to regulate as the telecoms regulator - OFCOM.

I was actually mainly thinking of drawing this issue to the attention of journalists who have previously covered ticket machines not selling the appropriate tickets at the lowest fares in the hope they would run with it since it would appear that the majority of rail companies are wrongly charging customers peak hour fares before 9.30am/10am (Off Peak or Network card fare normal start time on a weekday) on bank holidays despite this issue having been raised before over several years..................

I'd have thought that by now a good regulator would have issued enough warnings to the companies so that they would no longer be able to put up much of a defence to multiple prosecutions in this area. (The legal bar seems to be set quite high - it looks as though ignorance might work as a defence, as might a certain amount of incompetence - so a good enforcement paper trail from the regulator might well be important.)

Why a trading standards enforcement body like the ORR seems to be publishing mystery shopping studies, for example, that appear to reveal numerous failures to comply with the law as mere 'research' is beyond my understanding! Where is the tough enforcement action?

furlong said:

I'd have thought that by now a good regulator would have issued enough warnings to the companies so that they would no longer be able to put up much of a defence to multiple prosecutions in this area. (The legal bar seems to be set quite high - it looks as though ignorance might work as a defence, as might a certain amount of incompetence - so a good enforcement paper trail from the regulator might well be important.)

Click to expand...

You mean a bit like if Ofcom was actually a decent regulator they would by now (five years after the law changed) have sought powers to impose massive fines on companies who still use covert premium rate 084/7 numbers to contact customer service instead of switching to an 01, 02 or 03 number that is charged at the normal rate.......................