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Taxis in bus lanes

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Bletchleyite

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I should have elaborated. Disabled customers, those with very limited mobility (those who usually would be entitled to a blue badge, and will haev a taxi badge) should be allowed to haev the driver stop where they need to go. I am not saying that all taxis should be allowed this however, but on receipt of the badge, the taxi should be permitted this.

If the passenger in the taxi would be entitled to stop/park their own car in that location by way of their Blue Badge (or an entitlement to one that they don't actually hold), yes. (Blue Badges do not entitle one to cause an obstruction; the only class of vehicle entitled to do that is the emergency services attending an incident).

Otherwise, no.

Taxis should, as mostly single-occupancy vehicles, be treated the same as private cars.
 
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alxndr

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I have no idea on the particular issues that London faces, the capital often has its own unique problems, but elsewhere I find the bus lanes are almost always empty. If a few taxis can make use of the empty space then I can't see an issue at all.

Taxis can be used to supplement traditional public transport after all (e.g if I'm travelling somewhere by train that isn't served by busses I might get a taxi, or when I've travelled after surgery I'll get taxis to and from the train to avoid the walking, waiting, and rougher ride typical of a bus journey). Ease of getting a taxi might encourage someone not to own a car, or to leave the car at home and not use up space in carparks.

I've also noticed some council vehicles bearing "permitted bus lane user" notices, of which I'm in favour seeing as the bus lanes here are largely empty. I'd like to give NR vehicles a permit, even if only permissable under train delaying fault conditions. If a bus lane can't be justified solely by busses then allowing a few other groups of vehicles to use them might end up making a "bus" lane a viable prospect and reduce congestion for them overall.
 

edwin_m

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Perhaps bus lanes should be multi-occupancy lanes, open only to buses as well as cars/taxis which are more than say 70% occupied. A full private car is a good use of road space and is also quite environmentally efficient so far as things go. But most cars (and taxis) are not full nor anywhere near it.
A private car is about 5m long and may contain 4 people. A bus is about 12m long and may contain 80 people. So even on that reckoning the car is a less efficient use of road space.

But it's worse than that. A vehicle has to have empty space in front of it to travel safely, assuming the traffic is moving which is what we intend, and this depends on braking distance and relatively little on the type of vehicle. This drastically increases the relative efficiency of the bus.

I have no idea on the particular issues that London faces, the capital often has its own unique problems, but elsewhere I find the bus lanes are almost always empty. If a few taxis can make use of the empty space then I can't see an issue at all.

Taxis can be used to supplement traditional public transport after all (e.g if I'm travelling somewhere by train that isn't served by busses I might get a taxi, or when I've travelled after surgery I'll get taxis to and from the train to avoid the walking, waiting, and rougher ride typical of a bus journey). Ease of getting a taxi might encourage someone not to own a car, or to leave the car at home and not use up space in carparks.

I've also noticed some council vehicles bearing "permitted bus lane user" notices, of which I'm in favour seeing as the bus lanes here are largely empty. I'd like to give NR vehicles a permit, even if only permissable under train delaying fault conditions. If a bus lane can't be justified solely by busses then allowing a few other groups of vehicles to use them might end up making a "bus" lane a viable prospect and reduce congestion for them overall.
If the bus lane was full like the other lanes then it wouldn't be doing its job. A full lane is an inefficient way of moving people, leading to slower journeys and more pollution. So it's necessary to keep bus lanes free-moving to allow buses to be quicker and more reliable, and therefore more attractive for people to use considering they still have to walk some distance to and from bus stops and waste time while the bus is picking up and dropping off other people. Most urban roads don't have the capacity for the traffic they are expected to carry at rush hours, and if they are improved that tends to just generate more traffic including people transferring from buses to cars. If capacity is limited it's best to create an incentive for the people who use it more efficiently.
 

Bletchleyite

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If the bus lane was full like the other lanes then it wouldn't be doing its job. A full lane is an inefficient way of moving people, leading to slower journeys and more pollution.

Not just for that, but to make bus journey times predictable and therefore punctual.

Very rarely do UK bus lanes achieve this because they end before junctions in most cases. The bus needs to be able to overtake at junctions.
 

carlberry

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Perhaps bus lanes should be multi-occupancy lanes, open only to buses as well as cars/taxis which are more than say 70% occupied. A full private car is a good use of road space and is also quite environmentally efficient so far as things go. But most cars (and taxis) are not full nor anywhere near it.
The problem with this goes back to the original reason for bus lanes which was to allow predictability for buses which were trying to stick to a timetable. Then people want to start adding extra uses for the 'empty' bus lanes however the emptiness is the essential point.
 

edwin_m

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Very rarely do UK bus lanes achieve this because they end before junctions in most cases. The bus needs to be able to overtake at junctions.
I agree in principle. But to work safely this probably needs the bus to have its own phase at traffic signals, most likely triggered by system that detects an approaching bus. Otherwise there is a risk of drivers turning left across the bus lane, not expecting a bus to approach from behind.
 

radamfi

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I agree in principle. But to work safely this probably needs the bus to have its own phase at traffic signals, most likely triggered by system that detects an approaching bus. Otherwise there is a risk of drivers turning left across the bus lane, not expecting a bus to approach from behind.

That's normal in some other countries.
 

Bletchleyite

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I agree in principle. But to work safely this probably needs the bus to have its own phase at traffic signals, most likely triggered by system that detects an approaching bus. Otherwise there is a risk of drivers turning left across the bus lane, not expecting a bus to approach from behind.

Yes, it does. This needs to be present at all junctions with bus lanes, and is something that has been done in mainland Europe for years.

A change in the law would be useful to allow buses to be signalled using tram signals to avoid confusion.
 

Tom B

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Yes, it does. This needs to be present at all junctions with bus lanes, and is something that has been done in mainland Europe for years.

A change in the law would be useful to allow buses to be signalled using tram signals to avoid confusion.

Such signals are in place at Archway following the dog's breakfast rerouting of the gyratory there. Ostensibly, they are to allow buses priority. What happens in practice is that the bus straddles the bus lane and the first driving lane and veers either way of the island depending on if the lights change!
 

Bletchleyite

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Such signals are in place at Archway following the dog's breakfast rerouting of the gyratory there. Ostensibly, they are to allow buses priority. What happens in practice is that the bus straddles the bus lane and the first driving lane and veers either way of the island depending on if the lights change!

If they are set up properly that should never arise because the lights should be changed in favour of the bus as it approaches so it need never slow or stop. Trust the UK to make a cack-handed half-job of implementing something like this.
 

alxndr

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But it's worse than that. A vehicle has to have empty space in front of it to travel safely, assuming the traffic is moving which is what we intend, and this depends on braking distance and relatively little on the type of vehicle. This drastically increases the relative efficiency of the bus.


If the bus lane was full like the other lanes then it wouldn't be doing its job. A full lane is an inefficient way of moving people, leading to slower journeys and more pollution. So it's necessary to keep bus lanes free-moving to allow buses to be quicker and more reliable, and therefore more attractive for people to use considering they still have to walk some distance to and from bus stops and waste time while the bus is picking up and dropping off other people. Most urban roads don't have the capacity for the traffic they are expected to carry at rush hours, and if they are improved that tends to just generate more traffic including people transferring from buses to cars. If capacity is limited it's best to create an incentive for the people who use it more efficiently.

I agree that you don't want to clog the bus lane up and lose the benefit of it, but when a bus lane is empty 90% of the time, even with taxis and council vehicles also using it, there's no benefit in removing the additional vehicles. Maybe my town just has particularly empty bus lanes...
 

Deerfold

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If they are set up properly that should never arise because the lights should be changed in favour of the bus as it approaches so it need never slow or stop. Trust the UK to make a cack-handed half-job of implementing something like this.

Many junctions in London have signals controlled by approaching buses.
However it's still not simple - what happens if there's more than one bus approaching from different directions?
 

Bletchleyite

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Many junctions in London have signals controlled by approaching buses.
However it's still not simple - what happens if there's more than one bus approaching from different directions?

Then one has to wait. But what should never, ever arise is a bus arriving at a junction with bus priority and finding that the lights controlling general traffic are on green and the bus overtake on red, which is what the other poster explained had happened.
 

edwin_m

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Then one has to wait. But what should never, ever arise is a bus arriving at a junction with bus priority and finding that the lights controlling general traffic are on green and the bus overtake on red, which is what the other poster explained had happened.
They may have decided that the signals should allow a phase for general traffic if a succession of buses has kept their lights at red for more than a certain period.

There is one bus signal in Nottingham I pass regularly, where the buses usually pull out into the general traffic lane before they get to the detector in the bus lane. This may be simply because traffic is flowing freely, in which case the bus doesn't need the priority so there's no point in inconveniencing other road users.

Some systems are clever enough to give priority only if the bus is running late. Not sure if we have those in the UK.
 

Bletchleyite

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They may have decided that the signals should allow a phase for general traffic if a succession of buses has kept their lights at red for more than a certain period.

Which misses the point entirely. Buses should have absolute priority over everything except emergency services.
 

Ethano92

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I dont think taxis stopping momentarily in bus lanes are any worse than the many bus lanes in my borough that allow parking on them off peak despite the road being just as busy all day Saturday and a lot of other times and so the lane becomes void. They really should be there to help greener modes of transport travel more efficiently (buses, cycles and I would say only electric taxis) not that I think the latter would ever come into effect.

I agree Uber can attract lazy people but for many it's more convenient than a black cab, especially for those who live in the suburbs where there isn't an abundance of black cabs.

I think buses are something we have to take more seriously in the UK, even in London: better bus lanes; bus prompted traffic lights which can be put in at junctions specifically that aren't right next to the town centre and there are buses using it from all directions, lights such as pedestrian crossing especially; better information, being so used to oyster/contactless flat fare I do sometimes struggle to understand the fare system of other bus networks, some of them don't make it very clear, others are simple to understand.
 

edwin_m

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They really should be there to help greener modes of transport travel more efficiently (buses, cycles and I would say only electric taxis) not that I think the latter would ever come into effect.
There are electric taxis in London, although only in quite small numbers. Electrifying taxis ought to be a fairly easy green measure, as the lower running cost is more likely to justify the higher initial cost for a vehicle that is used more. Also they spend a lot of time in urban areas where pollution is a problem, and probably don't do enough mileage to need recharging during the working day. The problem is that they are generally owner-drivers who may struggle with the initial outlay and are also a powerful political lobby against anything they think threatens their interests.
 

radamfi

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I dont think taxis stopping momentarily in bus lanes are any worse than the many bus lanes in my borough that allow parking on them off peak despite the road being just as busy all day Saturday and a lot of other times and so the lane becomes void.

I don't think I've seen a part time bus lane outside Britain and Ireland. Bus lanes in Britain are also often too narrow, meaning that buses have to crawl past traffic near the white line. Basically, Britain, including London, haven't a clue how to do bus lanes properly.
 

anme

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In taxis’ defence: they don’t have to take up a parking space when you’re not using them

When they don't have a passenger, they will often drive around killing and maiming people and causing extra pollution.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think I've seen a part time bus lane outside Britain and Ireland. Bus lanes in Britain are also often too narrow, meaning that buses have to crawl past traffic near the white line. Basically, Britain, including London, haven't a clue how to do bus lanes properly.

I think you mean "haven't a clue about how to operate buses properly". This extends to just about every single aspect of operation, which is generally markedly inferior to the approach taken in other, particularly Germanic, countries.
 

takno

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When they don't have a passenger, they will often drive around killing and maiming people and causing extra pollution.
I'm with you on the extra pollution, and the space they waste on congested urban roads, and they aren't always particularly considerately driven, but even Uber drivers aren't doing all that much in the way of maiming and killing.
 

anme

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I'm with you on the extra pollution, and the space they waste on congested urban roads, and they aren't always particularly considerately driven, but even Uber drivers aren't doing all that much in the way of maiming and killing.

In my experience, licensed taxi drivers are far far worse drivers than Uber drivers.
 

Bletchleyite

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In my experience, licensed taxi drivers are far far worse drivers than Uber drivers.

In mine, private hire (including Uber) are worse in London than licensed taxi drivers, but in every other city I've used taxis in they have been as you state. In MK a significant number of the licensed taxi drivers are rip-off merchants who refuse to use the meter etc, whereas the private hire drivers mostly behave (and you can be sure to get a decent one if you book via the app to pay by card, because they can't prat with the fare in that case, and the disreputable few tend to refuse card bookings).
 

90019

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Some systems are clever enough to give priority only if the bus is running late. Not sure if we have those in the UK.
When I started with Lothian, we were told about such a system that was fitted to the buses here, but whether it still works or is even there, I don't know.
 

carlberry

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but even Uber drivers aren't doing all that much in the way of maiming and killing.
I believe it was an option that was added to the app along with other services such as shopping and food but was dropped in most countries owing to a problem with local laws/customs.
 

edwin_m

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I'm with you on the extra pollution, and the space they waste on congested urban roads, and they aren't always particularly considerately driven, but even Uber drivers aren't doing all that much in the way of maiming and killing.
Studies have shown that the likes of Uber result in a net increase in road traffic, even taking account private car journeys avoided. So as a first guess there would be a proportionate increase in road casualties.
 

anme

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I believe it was an option that was added to the app along with other services such as shopping and food but was dropped in most countries owing to a problem with local laws/customs.

Drivers maim and kill people all the time and no one seems to care. It's really sick. UK statistics for year ending June 2018:
  • 1,770 reported road deaths
  • 26,610 people killed or seriously injured
  • 165,100 casualties of all severities, a decrease of 6%

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...n-provisional-estimates-year-ending-june-2018
 

AlbertBeale

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In mine, private hire (including Uber) are worse in London than licensed taxi drivers, but in every other city I've used taxis in they have been as you state. In MK a significant number of the licensed taxi drivers are rip-off merchants who refuse to use the meter etc, whereas the private hire drivers mostly behave (and you can be sure to get a decent one if you book via the app to pay by card, because they can't prat with the fare in that case, and the disreputable few tend to refuse card bookings).

Yes, figures show that - in London - licensed taxis are much less dangerous (in all sorts of ways, including attacks on passengers, not just road safety) than private hire such as Uber. The road safety angle is very strongly borne out by my experience cycling around central London every day - it's really indisputable. Also, there are now far more private-hire cars than licensed taxis; numbers of the latter in London have been fairly level for years, while (especially since Uber) private-hire have gone up massively - the number of private hire cars is many times the number of licensed taxis. The local authority (TfL) doesn't have the power to control how many private-hire licences are issued, so they've gone through the roof, leading to increased congestion (also obvious to anyone on the roads daily) and to more empty (in the sense of no passenger) cars moving around.
 
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