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Are Heavyweight buses fading away?

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Prestige15

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10-15 years ago single deckers buses were dominated by B7RLE, L94UB, and Citaros and now lightweight and (not all) rather underpowered buses is now the norm.
The new B8RLE from Plaxton, Wright and MCV numbers are decent but rather low as are the Citaros, VDL/DAF is long gone, Nobody brought any euro 6 K series scania apart from reading buses and same goes to Arriva its euro 6 MAN. It probably explains why Alexander Dennis don't seemed to be bothering making the E300 MMC.
Although i have had Rumours few companies that have been getting fed up with underpowered light weight buses and series of complaints from the drivers, Not sure if thats true.
 
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K4016td

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I don't think that UK really needs heavyweight buses as most of the space in UK one doored buses is reserved for seaters, not for standeess like in Europe, therefore their capacity is usually much lower and as such the power needed and fuel consumption is much lower. Typical 3 doored, 12m bus in Europe can oficially carry around 100 passengers whereas in the UK this would be around a half of that due to the number of seats.
 

Jordan Adam

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I don't think that UK really needs heavyweight buses as most of the space in UK one doored buses is reserved for seaters, not for standeess like in Europe, therefore their capacity is usually much lower and as such the power needed and fuel consumption is much lower. Typical 3 doored, 12m bus in Europe can oficially carry around 100 passengers whereas in the UK this would be around a half of that due to the number of seats.

Not really, most full length singles in the UK are around the 70-80 mark. Also you'll find on many routes in the UK singles will carry standees, especially during peak hours.

10-15 years ago single deckers buses were dominated by B7RLE, L94UB, and Citaros and now lightweight and (not all) rather underpowered buses is now the norm.
The new B8RLE from Plaxton, Wright and MCV numbers are decent but rather low as are the Citaros, VDL/DAF is long gone, Nobody brought any euro 6 K series scania apart from reading buses and same goes to Arriva its euro 6 MAN. It probably explains why Alexander Dennis don't seemed to be bothering making the E300 MMC.
Although i have had Rumours few companies that have been getting fed up with underpowered light weight buses and series of complaints from the drivers, Not sure if thats true.

Companies are much more focused on running costs now as bus services are not as profitable as they once were, as such in many cases it's no longer viable to be buying more expensive less fuel efficient heavy weight buses.

However to run down some issues.
  • Citaro: Overpriced for what it is, internal design is not passenger friendly with the much hated rear facing seats.
  • B8RLE: Okay product however few operators want MCV bodies and Wright will try and brown envelope you some Streetlites instead.
  • K Series: The Euro 5 offering was horrendously gutless, even a 4 cylinder E200 could put them to shame! No relevant (in the UK) body builder sees demand to offer a body.
  • MAN: Ruined reputation following endless issues with engines on their previous products.
Truth be told most of the light weight buses on the market these days (with the exception of all Streetlites) will do the exact same job as a full size bus just as good if not better. I was travelling on our 6 cylinder Enviro200MMCs the other day and there was 0 rattles, not even the cab door was rattling. As for performance and comfort, you really wouldn't notice the difference between it and a B8RLE unless you were a hard core clipboard holder. Even then the engine is only slightly smaller than that in the B8RLE and has more cylinders than that in Scania's offering! Travelling on the 12 plate K230UBs the same day and the difference was light night and day, while the E200MMCs happily sat at 50MPH, the K230s were struggling to even get up to 20MPH on flat/downhill sections of road. Even once up to speed they'd loose momentum very easily and the interior layout/design is poor.

To add to that last week i managed to end up with a 08 plate 4 cylinder Enviro200 (Stagecoach 36050) for 90 minutes as a substitute to a Interdeck and if i'm being honest it wasn't all that bad. Despite being 11 years old and a light weight midibus there wasn't that much rattles and it held the road well. The only issue was legroom, however this has much improved on the E200 since then.
 

ChrisPJ

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In sales terms the Dart and Enviro 200 have been market leaders for most of the last 30 years, and probably outsold all heavyweight equivalents in each of those years.
 

Prestige15

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  • Citaro: Overpriced for what it is, internal design is not passenger friendly with the much hated rear facing seats.
  • B8RLE: Okay product however few operators want MCV bodies and Wright will try and brown envelope you some Streetlites instead.
  • K Series: The Euro 5 offering was horrendously gutless, even a 4 cylinder E200 could put them to shame! No relevant (in the UK) body builder sees demand to offer a body.
  • MAN: Ruined reputation following endless issues with engines on their previous products.


Well you're not wrong about MAN especially the 18.220, I notice how larger the grills are at the back end, However i have been on Arriva's MAN ecocity they are quiet and rather refined. And as for the Citaro, It is a merc after all when it comes to price just like their overpriced cars. Before we know it they could end up offering a Citaro AMG.

Is there a specific reason why VDL pulled out the bus market? The SB220 was a success (with arriva at least)
 

Jordan Adam

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Well you're not wrong about MAN especially the 18.220, I notice how larger the grills are at the back end, However i have been on Arriva's MAN ecocity they are quiet and rather refined. And as for the Citaro, It is a merc after all when it comes to price just like their overpriced cars. Before we know it they could end up offering a Citaro AMG.

Is there a specific reason why VDL pulled out the bus market? The SB220 was a success (with arriva at least)

The SB200 was replaced by the Streetlite which is effectively on the same chassis.
 
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CM

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The SB220 was replaced by the Streetlite which is effectively on the same chassis.

The Streetlite is most definatley not on the SB220 chassis. The SB220 was a heavy weight chassis introduced to the UK in the late 80s/early 90s and mostly bodied by Optare with the Delta body.
 

Jordan Adam

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The Streetlite is most definatley not on the SB220 chassis. The SB220 was a heavy weight chassis introduced to the UK in the late 80s/early 90s and mostly bodied by Optare with the Delta body.

Indeed thanks for pointing that out, a "doh" moment. Meant to say the SB200 not the SB220! I always get them mixed up.
 

radamfi

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Is there a specific reason why VDL pulled out the bus market? The SB220 was a success (with arriva at least)

Just for clarity, although you probably know this already, VDL are still producing the Citea and the electric version is probably the most popular electric model in Europe at the moment.
 

Jordan Adam

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Just for clarity, although you probably know this already, VDL are still producing the Citea and the electric version is probably the most popular electric model in Europe at the moment.

I think they were referring to the UK bus market. Of course VDL are still quite a prominent figure in the coach market.
 

Prestige15

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The Streetlite is most definatley not on the SB220 chassis. The SB220 was a heavy weight chassis introduced to the UK in the late 80s/early 90s and mostly bodied by Optare with the Delta body.
My bad, I ment to say SB200, I allways get mixed up with the 220
 

LOL The Irony

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Before we know it they could end up offering a Citaro AMG.
Citaro 80 AMG, then the Citaro 80 S AMG and then the Citaro 80 AMG Black. Bucket seats and Alcoa Alloys as standard. Twin Turbo's on all models. The Black series comes with a Supercharger as well. :D

In a serious note, an AMG Unimog would come before an AMG bus.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Companies are much more focused on running costs now as bus services are not as profitable as they once were, as such in many cases it's no longer viable to be buying more expensive less fuel efficient heavy weight buses.

This is very much the driving force behind the move from heavyweight vehicles. It's about costs.

Unlike the continent where the regulatory framework is different, in the UK the costs of operation are borne by the operators. Even in London, it is the operator that takes the risk reflected in the tender price. Of course, should TfL mandate features like AC (or even purchase the vehicles themselves and just get operators to operate them), then that is simply reflected in the operating cost incurred by TfL.

In addition, factor in the increase in fuel prices since the mid 2000s AND the various emissions changes to Euro engines that have reduced mpg and it's more understandable why lightweight, fuel efficient vehicles are in vogue. Of course, operators will have to take a view on those routes where the fuel cost of a heavyweight chassis is outweighed by the benefits of improved reliability.
 

padbus

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Not really, most full length singles in the UK are around the 70-80 mark. Also you'll find on many routes in the UK singles will carry standees, especially during peak hours.
  • Citaro: Overpriced for what it is, internal design is not passenger friendly with the much hated rear facing seats.
There is a low entry version of the Citaro which would resolve the internal design issues. It has always surprised me the Mercedes have chosen not to offer it here as it would meet UK needs better than the full low floor buses they do offer.
 

padbus

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Indeed thanks for pointing that out, a "doh" moment. Meant to say the SB200 not the SB220! I always get them mixed up.
Wrightbus make their own "chassis". See http://www.wrightsgroup.com/Divisions/EN-Drive where it says:
"EN-Drive is the newly established chassis design and manufacturing arm of Wrights Group, the world-renowned bus producers. EN-Drive’s state-of-the-art facility is located on the outskirts of Antrim within the Newpark Industrial Estate.

At EN-Drive chassis are assembled for todays “integral” Wrightbus product line up - the StreetLite single deck product range, the StreetDeck double deck product range and the New Routemaster. EN-Drive have capacity to also build for other vehicle manufacturers on a contract basis. The long term ambition for EN-Drive is to become the chassis provider of choice to both internal and external customers worldwide."
 

cnjb8

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Wrightbus make their own "chassis". See http://www.wrightsgroup.com/Divisions/EN-Drive where it says:
"EN-Drive is the newly established chassis design and manufacturing arm of Wrights Group, the world-renowned bus producers. EN-Drive’s state-of-the-art facility is located on the outskirts of Antrim within the Newpark Industrial Estate.

At EN-Drive chassis are assembled for todays “integral” Wrightbus product line up - the StreetLite single deck product range, the StreetDeck double deck product range and the New Routemaster. EN-Drive have capacity to also build for other vehicle manufacturers on a contract basis. The long term ambition for EN-Drive is to become the chassis provider of choice to both internal and external customers worldwide."
I believe the now not under construction Gemini 2 and Pulsar 2 used VDL components but were classed as semi-integral.
 

Jordan Adam

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Wrightbus make their own "chassis". See http://www.wrightsgroup.com/Divisions/EN-Drive where it says:
"EN-Drive is the newly established chassis design and manufacturing arm of Wrights Group, the world-renowned bus producers. EN-Drive’s state-of-the-art facility is located on the outskirts of Antrim within the Newpark Industrial Estate.

At EN-Drive chassis are assembled for todays “integral” Wrightbus product line up - the StreetLite single deck product range, the StreetDeck double deck product range and the New Routemaster. EN-Drive have capacity to also build for other vehicle manufacturers on a contract basis. The long term ambition for EN-Drive is to become the chassis provider of choice to both internal and external customers worldwide."

Knew someone would post this... Wright do now assemble their own chassis, however the chassis on the Streetlite is based on the SB200 chassis, in Europe the Streetlite is even badged as a VDL product with a slightly modified exterior. Likewise the Gemini2DL was in reality pretty much a rebadged DB300, while the Streetdeck is on a EvoBus (Daimler) based chassis. The point earlier being that the reason VDL don't have a bus range in the UK market anymore is because the Streetlite/Streetdeck filled the niche they had.
 

jammy36

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Knew someone would post this... Wright do now assemble their own chassis, however the chassis on the Streetlite is based on the SB200 chassis, in Europe the Streetlite is even badged as a VDL product with a slightly modified exterior. Likewise the Gemini2DL was in reality pretty much a rebadged DB300, while the Streetdeck is on a EvoBus (Daimler) based chassis. The point earlier being that the reason VDL don't have a bus range in the UK market anymore is because the Streetlite/Streetdeck filled the niche they had.

Is there any evidence that the Streetlite chassis is based on the SB200? All the information I've seen suggests that the chassis was developed in house by Wright's engineers and was available with either Mercedes or Cummins power at launch. The only VDL connection is that the Citea MLE, which is simply a rebadged Streetlite that was built by Wright's to fill a niche in VDLs European product range. It wasn't introduced until four years after the Streetlite.

Similarly is the Streetdeck really on an EvoBus based chassis (do Mercedes even make a double deck bus chassis)? I thought the Streetdeck chassis was derived from that developed by Wrights for the NBFL, i.e. an entirely in house design, using slightly modified front and rear axle modules from the NBFL a lighter weight central module and a new engine module. The vehicle is powered by a Mercedes-Benz OM934 engine (in the same way as Mercedes engines are supplied to Optare for the Solo), but that isn't the same as being based on a EvoBus chassis.
 

Eyersey468

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I'm not aware of any double deck offering by Mercedes Benz in the UK, I don't know if they offer one elsewhere though
 

K4016td

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I'm not aware of any double deck offering by Mercedes Benz in the UK, I don't know if they offer one elsewhere though

As long as I am aware out of European city double-deckers manufacturers only MAN does some on either two or tri-axle chassis and Scania did some integrals at their plant in Poland for the UK market (CN270UD) in addition to offering the chassis.
 

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I remember the Seddon Pennine 7, so beloved of Eastern Scottish and to a lesser degree by Western Scottish, being described as a middleweight. Although the chassis was lightweight, the engine wasn't!
 

CM

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I remember the Seddon Pennine 7, so beloved of Eastern Scottish and to a lesser degree by Western Scottish, being described as a middleweight. Although the chassis was lightweight, the engine wasn't!

I'd reckon in those days most single deck chassis where lightweight considering there wasn't much to them compared with todays chassis being fitted with all manners of nonsense all in the name of emissions.
 

Mikey C

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Is there any evidence that the Streetlite chassis is based on the SB200? All the information I've seen suggests that the chassis was developed in house by Wright's engineers and was available with either Mercedes or Cummins power at launch. The only VDL connection is that the Citea MLE, which is simply a rebadged Streetlite that was built by Wright's to fill a niche in VDLs European product range. It wasn't introduced until four years after the Streetlite.

Similarly is the Streetdeck really on an EvoBus based chassis (do Mercedes even make a double deck bus chassis)? I thought the Streetdeck chassis was derived from that developed by Wrights for the NBFL, i.e. an entirely in house design, using slightly modified front and rear axle modules from the NBFL a lighter weight central module and a new engine module. The vehicle is powered by a Mercedes-Benz OM934 engine (in the same way as Mercedes engines are supplied to Optare for the Solo), but that isn't the same as being based on a EvoBus chassis.

To me both the Streetdeck and Streetlite are pure Wright products

Whether that's a good thing in terms of quality and reliability when compared to say the previous VDL SB200/Wright Cadet is debatable
 

CM

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To me both the Streetdeck and Streetlite are pure Wright products

Whether that's a good thing in terms of quality and reliability when compared to say the previous VDL SB200/Wright Cadet is debatable

The Cadet body wasn't available on the SB200 chassis. The Cadet was built on the SB120 chassis with the SB200 being fitted with the Wright Commander bodywork.
 

Robertj21a

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Knew someone would post this... Wright do now assemble their own chassis, however the chassis on the Streetlite is based on the SB200 chassis, in Europe the Streetlite is even badged as a VDL product with a slightly modified exterior. Likewise the Gemini2DL was in reality pretty much a rebadged DB300, while the Streetdeck is on a EvoBus (Daimler) based chassis. The point earlier being that the reason VDL don't have a bus range in the UK market anymore is because the Streetlite/Streetdeck filled the niche they had.

That's very interesting, and something I'd not read before. Do you have a link to this VDL/Wright connection ?
 

mbonwick

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_Pulsar_Gemini
In 2008, Wright launched the Gemini 2 integral with chassis modules supplied by VDL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_Gemini_2
The Gemini 2 was launched in 2007 as the replacement for the Pulsar Gemini and one-off Pulsar Gemini HEV.[1] It was semi-integral, being based on the updated VDL DB300 chassis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_StreetLite#VDL_Citea_MLE
In October 2013, VDL Bus & Coach introduced a rebadged variant of the StreetLite WF, known as the Citea MLE, for the mainland European market

I realise Wiki isn't the most reliable source, but this was widely reported at the time; it's just that Wiki is the only site that still has the info.
 

radamfi

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_StreetLite#VDL_Citea_MLE

I realise Wiki isn't the most reliable source, but this was widely reported at the time; it's just that Wiki is the only site that still has the info.

More comprehensive info is here:

https://wiki.ovinnederland.nl/wiki/VDL_Citea

  • Citea MLE (Midi Low Entry) (dit is een een midibus op basis van de Wright Streetlite met lengtes van 8,8, 9,5, 10,2 en 10,8 meter. Wright bouwt en levert de versies met het stuur rechts en VDL de versies met het stuur links)

Translation:

"Wright built and supplied RHD versions and VDL LHD versions"
 
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