Difference between a depot, sub depot and outstation

Simon75 · 30 Aug 2019

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/outstations.49532/
This thread is now closed, so I thought to a new one (as there was discussion on the First Group thread)

RailUK Forums

Flying Snail · 30 Aug 2019

As mentioned on that thread there is no universal definition for each of those terms, it will be company and circumstance specific.

Anything from something as small as a plot of unpaved land or a driver's yard up to an apparently fully equipped facility with maintenance and staff facilities could be classed as an outstation or sub depot if the company has reasons to do so.

Simon75 · 30 Aug 2019

Flying Snail said:
As mentioned on that thread there is no universal definition for each of those terms, it will be company and circumstance specific.

Anything from something as small as a plot of unpaved land or a driver's yard up to an apparently fully equipped facility with maintenance and staff facilities could be classed as an outstation or sub depot if the company has reasons to do so.

Arriva Macclesfield depot ( pvr approx 15 )is classed as an outstation of Winsford
Macclesfield (Gaw Lane end) us 2 1/2 miles from the bus station , at the end of a country lane.
There is an office, fuelling and basic washing. The building looks run down (the site has been in use for about 15 years)
There are additional staff facilities at the bus station
Some buses mainly the 38/130 are often seen in Northwich, the 84 Chester to Crewe

Andyh82 · 30 Aug 2019

I believe Kernow only have one allocation based at Camborne, everything else including the substantial Summercourt depot is an outstation.

markymark2000 · 30 Aug 2019

Outstations don't have their own depot management nor do they have their own pay deals. All managerial aspects of outstations are covered by the main garage. This includes allocations.
Most outstations don't have maintenance facilities so again, this is done at the main garage.

Sub depots I wouldn't have a clue.

Jordan Adam · 30 Aug 2019

From the "North Scotland" perspective...

Depot: Large yard with maintenance facilities, refuel facilities, driver facilities, own depot management team.
Sub Depot: Smaller yard with basic to no maintenance facilities, refuel facilities and basic to no driver facilities, often all the vehicles at these will be allocated to and maintained by another depot.
Outstation: Any other piece of land used to store buses that doesn't have any facilities.

At Stagecoach North Scotland Ballater would be a "Sub Depot" as it's managed by Aberdeen and has very minimal maintenance facilities, but is a proper site owned by Stagecoach. Fyvie on the other hand is a "outstation" as this is simply a piece of land (Farm) used to park buses overnight with no facilities at all.

markymark2000 · 30 Aug 2019

Jordan Adam said:
From the "North Scotland" perspective...

Depot: Large yard with maintenance facilities, refuel facilities, driver facilities, own depot management team.
Sub Depot: Smaller yard with basic to no maintenance facilities, refuel facilities and basic to no driver facilities, often all the vehicles at these will be allocated to and maintained by another depot.
Outstation: Any other piece of land used to store buses that doesn't have any facilities.

At Stagecoach North Scotland Ballater would be a "Sub Depot" as it's managed by Aberdeen and has very minimal maintenance facilities, but is a proper site owned by Stagecoach. Fyvie on the other hand is a "outstation" as this is simply a piece of land (Farm) used to park buses overnight with no facilities at all.

I get you. Sub-depot isn't used very much in my experience and 'Outstation' covers both sub depots and outstations.

Jordan Adam · 30 Aug 2019

markymark2000 said:
I get you. Sub-depot isn't used very much in my experience and 'Outstation' covers both sub depots and outstations.

Indeed, I think it's fair to say the exact definition varies quite drastically and there's no real definite answer.

NorthernSpirit · 31 Aug 2019

Compass Travel (Sussex) Ltd has one main depot (Durrington on Sea) and, to my knowledge, two outstations - one at Lewes and one at Dunsfold. Both outstations have maintenance facilities but no fuelling this is done at either a local fuel station or at the main depot at Durrington.

Stagecoach in the South Downs has (to my knowledge) depots at Worthing and Chichester and an outstation at Henfield which is just a patch of land for a handful of buses for the 17 between Horsham and Brighton and an office. I'm not certain but I do think that they also use the Portsmouth depot too for the Coastliner / Service 700.

Faresaver has its main depot in Chippenham and an outstation in Frome. No idea what facilities there is at Frome outstation.

Pennine (before it shut in 2014) had its main depot in Skipton and three outstations at Barnoldswick, Settle and Ingleton. The outstation at Settle had spaces for two buses and an office, it appeared to have toilet facilities too. Ingleton had one Leyland National parked up with the two other spaces rented out to Stagecoach Lancashire. No idea about the Barnoldswick outststation but I'm guessing it'll have been the same as the one at Settle.

robk23oxf · 31 Aug 2019

Some companies have specific outstation rosters which have a different rate of pay to the main depot rosters.

Busaholic · 31 Aug 2019

Opening a new can of worms, what is the difference between a bus depot and a bus garage, if any?

Jordan Adam · 31 Aug 2019

Busaholic said:
Opening a new can of worms, what is the difference between a bus depot and a bus garage, if any?

None really, "garage" is an old term, where as "depot" is the newer term. Both the same thing really. I guess some would call a depot that's fully indoors a garage.

Cesarcollie · 31 Aug 2019

Busaholic said:
Opening a new can of worms, what is the difference between a bus depot and a bus garage, if any?

Nothing. Just terminology depending on history! In London, buses run from garages and trams/trolleybuses from depots. But elsewhere in the UK - just historical!

Jordan Adam · 31 Aug 2019

Cesarcollie said:
Nothing. Just terminology depending on history! In London, buses run from garages and trams/trolleybuses from depots. But elsewhere in the UK - just historical!

I note that locally most older enthusiasts say Garage. But anyone who grew up post 1970 seems to say depot.

CM · 31 Aug 2019

Jordan Adam said:
From the "North Scotland" perspective...

Depot: Large yard with maintenance facilities, refuel facilities, driver facilities, own depot management team.
Sub Depot: Smaller yard with basic to no maintenance facilities, refuel facilities and basic to no driver facilities, often all the vehicles at these will be allocated to and maintained by another depot.
Outstation: Any other piece of land used to store buses that doesn't have any facilities.

At Stagecoach North Scotland Ballater would be a "Sub Depot" as it's managed by Aberdeen and has very minimal maintenance facilities, but is a proper site owned by Stagecoach. Fyvie on the other hand is a "outstation" as this is simply a piece of land (Farm) used to park buses overnight with no facilities at all.

Do Northern and Highland still continue the practise of keeping buses at drivers houses?

Jordan Adam · 31 Aug 2019

Colin M said:
Do Northern and Highland still continue the practise of keeping buses at drivers houses?

Yup, still happens under Stagecoach North Scotland. Albeit the number has dropped in recent years.

Busaholic · 31 Aug 2019

Cesarcollie said:
Nothing. Just terminology depending on history! In London, buses run from garages and trams/trolleybuses from depots. But elsewhere in the UK - just historical!

Indeed! Being from London and growing up when both trams (just) and trolleybuses were still on the road it's always a distinction I've observed. It was particularly brought home to me by the peaceful co-existence of Holloway bus garage (code J) and Holloway trolleybus depot (code HT), the latter being renamed Highgate after its bus conversion which, tbh, I still think of it as even though it became Holloway again decades ago after the closure of J.

Andyh82 · 31 Aug 2019

Jordan Adam said:
Yup, still happens under Stagecoach North Scotland. Albeit the number has dropped in recent years.

Outside the highlands of Scotland, do some of the big bus companies still have outstations that are in a public place such as a bit of spare land or a public car park?

Jordan Adam · 31 Aug 2019

Andyh82 said:
Outside the highlands of Scotland, do some of the big bus companies still have outstations that are in a public place such as a bit of spare land or a public car park?

Couldn't comment for sure, however i wouldn't be surprised if Stagecoach West Scotland or North West did. Of course the definition of "Highlands" depends on if you're talking about the council area or geographical area, i'd assume you were talking about the latter.

cnjb8 · 31 Aug 2019

TrentBarton have their Belper and Matlock outstations.
Belper houses 14 Wright Solars and they are put in the bus station. This is all owned by TB and used to be a depot with a back entrance but this was sold to a car cleaning company when the Solars were introduced as they couldn't fit through the entrance unlike the Darts they replaced.
Matlock also used to be a depot, but half was sold. It houses 1 Solo for the Little Sixes however it may shut soon as that service uses any Solo from Derby now.
None have fuelling facilities but probably the buses visit Derby for a refuel.

TheGrandWazoo · 31 Aug 2019

In my experience, the definitions are usually along the lines of...

Depot - full maintenance facilities, administration and managerial staff, fixed allocation
Sub Depot - none or limited maintenance facilities, limited managerial staff (e.g. senior driver), fixed allocation
Outstation - no maintenance with vehicles drawn from main depot

So to pick out an example of these.... First Cymru

Main depots - Swansea, Port Talbot, Haverfordwest
Sub depots - Maesteg, Bridgend, Tycroes, Llanelli
Outstations - Narberth, Carmarthen

The main depots do the heavy engineering work, MOTs, etc. The sub-depots have their own allocations though there is some fluidity as vehicles are at the main depots for engineering and may be covered by loans. Bridgend and Llanelli do undertake some basic maintenance etc and used to be full depots. Maesteg did have engineering but don't think it has now. Tycroes did have a depot building but demolished though the offices remain. The outstations are little more than secure compounds.

Roilshead · 1 Sep 2019

Jordan Adam said:
None really, "garage" is an old term, where as "depot" is the newer term. Both the same thing really. I guess some would call a depot that's fully indoors a garage.

Depot is much the older term, being a French word for a place where things are stored. Garage, wasn't formally recorded until 1902, again a French word, as a building specifically where motor [sic] vehicles were stored.
Trams are always parked-up in depots, buses can be parked-up in depots or garages. The use of the term depot or garage in our times might reflect the original use of the building, of just preference for one-or-the-other term.
But garage does imply a building in which to house vehicles, whereas depot is just a place . . . so perhaps with so many [covered] bus garages being replaced by open parking areas we are moving back into age of depots.

Jordan Adam · 1 Sep 2019

Roilshead said:
Depot is much the older term, being a French word for a place where things are stored. Garage, wasn't formally recorded until 1902, again a French word, as a building specifically where motor [sic] vehicles were stored.
Trams are always parked-up in depots, buses can be parked-up in depots or garages. The use of the term depot or garage in our times might reflect the original use of the building, of just preference for one-or-the-other term.
But garage does imply a building in which to house vehicles, whereas depot is just a place . . . so perhaps with so many [covered] bus garages being replaced by open parking areas we are moving back into age of depots.

That's all fair enough, however within the bus industry garage is typically the "older" term where as depot is more modern. Even then "garage" can refer to a certain part of a depot such as the workshops. As i say, from experience it's only the "older" enthusiasts who say garage, everyone else says depot. That aside i would probably agree that garage implies a building on its own, where as depot implies a building with outdoor(and indoor) parking.

DunsBus · 1 Sep 2019

When Lowland Scottish took over the Borders and easternmost East Lothian operations from Eastern Scottish in 1985, it inherited the main depots at Berwick, Dunbar, Galashiels, Hawick, Kelso and Peebles, plus the outstation buildings at Jedburgh and North Berwick, whose parent main depots were Hawick and Dunbar respectively. Vehicles based at these two outstations shared the same depot codes (H and D) as their parent main depots.

In First days, the Jedburgh and North Berwick buildings became depots in their own right and got their own codes - J and Nb, though Jedburgh's new status would turn out to be short-lived as it closed in 2000 after Munro's gained the contract for the A68 corridor services between the Borders and Edinburgh from First. The building at Jedburgh still exists today, despite having closed as a depot nearly 20 years. NOrth Berwick, meanwhile, remains in use with East Coast Buses.

It's worth noting that of the six main depots inherited by Lowland, the only one still in use is at Galashiels, with Borders Buses. The depot building in Hawick still exists, but is no longer in use, whilst the Berwick, Dunbar, Kelso and Peebles depot sites have all been redeveloped.

By way of a contrast, when SMT outstationed vehicles in Duns, there was no physical depot building to speak of. The Duns "outstation" was two spaces on the north-east corner of the town square!
More recently, when Northumbria had some contracts for services in the Duns and Kelso areas in the early nineties they oustationed a Metrorider minibus at Swinton, near Duns, and allocated a regular driver for the work. It was kept at the driver's house and the duties were organised to allow it to return to Berwick for fuelling and maintenance.

Mwanesh · 1 Sep 2019

Stagecoach South Wales have Blackwood depot with Caerphilly as an oustation. Cwmbran have Brynmawr. Methyr have Brecon. Brynmawr has a painting bay not in use and its a piece of prime land which the council have been trying to get for years.

Bristol LH · 1 Sep 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
In my experience, the definitions are usually along the lines of...

Depot - full maintenance facilities, administration and managerial staff, fixed allocation

Sub Depot - none or limited maintenance facilities, limited managerial staff (e.g. senior driver), fixed allocation

Outstation - no maintenance with vehicles drawn from main depot

So to pick out an example of these.... First Cymru

Main depots - Swansea, Port Talbot, Haverfordwest

Sub depots - Maesteg, Bridgend, Tycroes, Llanelli

Outstations - Narberth, Carmarthen

The main depots do the heavy engineering work, MOTs, etc. The sub-depots have their own allocations though there is some fluidity as vehicles are at the main depots for engineering and may be covered by loans. Bridgend and Llanelli do undertake some basic maintenance etc and used to be full depots. Maesteg did have engineering but don't think it has now. Tycroes did have a depot building but demolished though the offices remain. The outstations are little more than secure compounds.

First Cymru's main depots, which have an engineering function, are Swansea Ravenhill, Haverfordwest, Tycroes (Ammanford), Port Talbot and Bridgend. The sub-depots, as I would term them because they are effectively downgraded former depots and do not have an engineering function, are Llanelli (the parent depot is Swansea Ravenhill) and Maesteg (the parent depot is Port Talbot). The two outstations are Carmarthen, which is a leased secured compound for four Llanelli vehicles, and Aberystwyth, where two Tycroes vehicles are 'stabled' overnight at Mid Wales Travel's depot.

TheGrandWazoo · 1 Sep 2019

DunsBus said:
When Lowland Scottish took over the Borders and easternmost East Lothian operations from Eastern Scottish in 1985, it inherited the main depots at Berwick, Dunbar, Galashiels, Hawick, Kelso and Peebles, plus the outstation buildings at Jedburgh and North Berwick, whose parent main depots were Hawick and Dunbar respectively. Vehicles based at these two outstations shared the same depot codes (H and D) as their parent main depots.

In First days, the Jedburgh and North Berwick buildings became depots in their own right and got their own codes - J and Nb, though Jedburgh's new status would turn out to be short-lived as it closed in 2000 after Munro's gained the contract for the A68 corridor services between the Borders and Edinburgh from First. The building at Jedburgh still exists today, despite having closed as a depot nearly 20 years. NOrth Berwick, meanwhile, remains in use with East Coast Buses.

It's worth noting that of the six main depots inherited by Lowland, the only one still in use is at Galashiels, with Borders Buses. The depot building in Hawick still exists, but is no longer in use, whilst the Berwick, Dunbar, Kelso and Peebles depot sites have all been redeveloped.

By way of a contrast, when SMT outstationed vehicles in Duns, there was no physical depot building to speak of. The Duns "outstation" was two spaces on the north-east corner of the town square!
More recently, when Northumbria had some contracts for services in the Duns and Kelso areas in the early nineties they oustationed a Metrorider minibus at Swinton, near Duns, and allocated a regular driver for the work. It was kept at the driver's house and the duties were organised to allow it to return to Berwick for fuelling and maintenance.

Ah yes - the old days when every town had a depot seemingly. Across the border, United Auto maintained a large number of depots in Northumberland. Berwick had its depot as did Alnwick with maintenance facilities, albeit limited. As regards Alnwick.....

Nearby Wooler had a depot building with an enquiry office (!) for 8 vehicles but can't recall if it performed any maintenance. It seemed to act as a sub depot as Alnwick provided spare vehicles. It was subsequently vacated in Northumbria days; the 4 remaining vehicles parked up in the bus station as an outstation of Alnwick. Meanwhile, Alnwick always maintained an open air outstation at Seahouses in the public car park that lasted into Arriva times for 1 vehicle (I think).

United also had some substantial facilities elsewhere. Rothbury had a large depot building and enquiry office https://www.flickr.com/photos/25854...p-YvCzdm-YvCy8q-J9bNnn-26qx4gK-XuPkf5-27Ng8NP
but it didn't have a fixed allocation, just rotating 3/4 vehicles through Morpeth. It closed c.1989/90 (I think) replaced by open parking in the auction mart. Despite the size of it, it was classed as an outstation.

Meanwhile, the similar sort of facility at Pickering had just 5 vehicles but no maintenance or spare vehicles. However, it had a fixed allocation (latterly 5 Leyland Leopards) but with no spares, Scarborough provided a vehicle fairly regularly. https://www.flickr.com/photos/77751...ist-UihRkt-fvEENA-cXZwq1-dNfDVn-cXqFMj-cXqE5m

TheGrandWazoo · 1 Sep 2019

Bristol LH said:
First Cymru's main depots, which have an engineering function, are Swansea Ravenhill, Haverfordwest, Tycroes (Ammanford), Port Talbot and Bridgend. The sub-depots, as I would term them because they are effectively downgraded former depots and do not have an engineering function, are Llanelli (the parent depot is Swansea Ravenhill) and Maesteg (the parent depot is Port Talbot). The two outstations are Carmarthen, which is a leased secured compound for four Llanelli vehicles, and Aberystwyth, where two Tycroes vehicles are 'stabled' overnight at Mid Wales Travel's depot.

I know you're the First Cymru expert so it's changed a bit since I was last across. Does Tycroes have an engineering function? I know the parking area with the office; is there another location. Been a while since I was at Llanelli but does that not have any maintenance now?

I know that Bridgend has a maintenance bay but assumed it did the basic inspections and repairs with larger jobs and MOTs done at Port Talbot.

43055 · 1 Sep 2019

cnjb8 said:
TrentBarton have their Belper and Matlock outstations.
Belper houses 14 Wright Solars and they are put in the bus station. This is all owned by TB and used to be a depot with a back entrance but this was sold to a car cleaning company when the Solars were introduced as they couldn't fit through the entrance unlike the Darts they replaced.
Matlock also used to be a depot, but half was sold. It houses 1 Solo for the Little Sixes however it may shut soon as that service uses any Solo from Derby now.
None have fuelling facilities but probably the buses visit Derby for a refuel.

Don't some of the Solars stay up at Matlock overnight after doing the 6.1?

Another outstation for trentbarton is Ashboune on the swift which is on a retail park.

Bristol LH · 1 Sep 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
I know you're the First Cymru expert so it's changed a bit since I was last across. Does Tycroes have an engineering function? I know the parking area with the office; is there another location. Been a while since I was at Llanelli but does that not have any maintenance now?

I know that Bridgend has a maintenance bay but assumed it did the basic inspections and repairs with larger jobs and MOTs done at Port Talbot.

Tycroes - A new maintenance bay was opened earlier this year to take some of the pressure off Ravenhill, particularly as the allocation is around 21 vehicles; Llanelli - No maintenance has been carried out there since the depot was downgraded a few years ago and the responsibility passed to Ravenhill; Bridgend - Basic engineering work is carried out there, though Port Talbot carries out the major work.

Difference between a depot, sub depot and outstation

On Moderation

RailUK Forums

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member