Emergency alarm for skipped stop?

randyrippley · 30 Aug 2019

How are passengers supposed to know the difference between a train that skip-stops with no prior warning, or a train that fails to stop due to brake failure or other technical issue? I'm thinking of the recent Scottish sleeper problem........

I've never had to face the problem, but if a train I was on failed to stop without prior notice I'm fairly certain I'd assume the worst and pull the lever in the assumption something was wrong

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6Gman · 30 Aug 2019

randyrippley said:
How are passengers supposed to know the difference between a train that skip-stops with no prior warning, or a train that fails to stop due to brake failure or other technical issue? I'm thinking of the recent Scottish sleeper problem........

I've never had to face the problem, but if a train I was on failed to stop without prior notice I'm fairly certain I'd assume the worst and pull the lever in the assumption something was wrong

On the assumption that the driver hadn't noticed?

I've been on (at least) two trains that failed to stop at stations. I assumed (and was correct) that the driver had just misread the timetable/ his docket.

6Gman · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
I would not be doing this maliciously, nor would it be a 'hoax'. I was just wondering where I would stand legally if I were to do such a thing. If a train fails to stop at a scheduled station without a prior announcement, then one could possibly come to the conclusion that there is a problem with the train, such as brake failure or hijacking (unlikely but still possible).
I will probably be accused of being 'obtuse' now, but I'm just interested in what the outcome would be as I'm not aware of any precedent for such a thing. It would be an interesting 'test case' imo.

Where would you stand? Possibly facing prosecution.

If the problem was brake failure, how would using the emergency alarm achieve anything?

theironroad · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
I would not be doing this maliciously, nor would it be a 'hoax'. I was just wondering where I would stand legally if I were to do such a thing. If a train fails to stop at a scheduled station without a prior announcement, then one could possibly come to the conclusion that there is a problem with the train, such as brake failure or hijacking (unlikely but still possible).
I will probably be accused of being 'obtuse' now, but I'm just interested in what the outcome would be as I'm not aware of any precedent for such a thing. It would be an interesting 'test case' imo.

Ok, this is getting a bit out of hand. You only seem to be interested in what the legal ramifications would be, not in the realities of why skip stopping happens. The fact that you talk about it being an 'interesting test case' seems to imply that you want it to happen. Not sure if this is some fantasy you want to try out, but crack on pal and see what happens.

Sirius · 30 Aug 2019

theironroad said:
Ok, this is getting a bit out of hand. You only seem to be interested in what the legal ramifications would be, not in the realities of why skip stopping happens. The fact that you talk about it being an 'interesting test case' seems to imply that you want it to happen. Not sure if this is some fantasy you want to try out, but crack on pal and see what happens.

And let us know if you are quicker getting to your car than getting the next service back/a taxi.

theironroad · 30 Aug 2019

Sirius said:
And let us know if you are quicker getting to your car than getting the next service back/a taxi.

Let me know when you've read the whole thread thoroughly and my earlier responses in context. Thanks.

Sirius · 30 Aug 2019

6Gman said:
Where would you stand? Possibly facing prosecution.
If the problem was brake failure, how would using the emergency alarm achieve anything?

If the problem was brake failure I'm sure there's a guy (or a lady) up front who is paid to notice, and presumably has more training on what to do in that event than a passenger.

Sirius · 30 Aug 2019

theironroad said:
Let me know when you've read the whole thread thoroughly and my earlier responses in context. Thanks.

My intention by quoting your post was to add an additional (rhetorical) question to the OP.

Happy to clarify and apologise for any misunderstanding.

theironroad · 30 Aug 2019

Sirius said:
My intention by quoting your post was to add an additional question to the OP.

Happy to clarify and apologise for any misunderstanding.

Robin87 · 30 Aug 2019

theironroad said:
Ok, this is getting a bit out of hand. You only seem to be interested in what the legal ramifications would be, not in the realities of why skip stopping happens. The fact that you talk about it being an 'interesting test case' seems to imply that you want it to happen. Not sure if this is some fantasy you want to try out, but crack on pal and see what happens.

LOL, it's not some "fantasy", no. I'm just pedantic about these rare "what if" scenarios. I'm surprised that it's never actually happened yet, at least not that I'm aware.

randyrippley · 30 Aug 2019

6Gman said:
On the assumption that the driver hadn't noticed?

I've been on (at least) two trains that failed to stop at stations. I assumed (and was correct) that the driver had just misread the timetable/ his docket.

No, on the assumption the brakes had failed.
How many weeks ago was that Scotrail sleeper runaway? Driver could do nothing about that: if the reports are correct it only stopped because a guard pulled the emergency handle in time.

JN114 · 30 Aug 2019

I cannot express in terms strongly enough - Skip stopping is not an emergency, and no passenger should be interfering with safety equipment for frivolous reasons in an attempt to point score against the train operator.

In the outlandish hypothetical situations you describe there’s an awful lot of people in the chain above the humble passenger whose job it is to notice things like hijackings and brake failures. Let them get on with their job. If you are concerned first speak to a member of staff, or get in contact with BTP.

JN114 · 30 Aug 2019

randyrippley said:
No, on the assumption the brakes had failed.
How many weeks ago was that Scotrail sleeper runaway? Driver could do nothing about that: if the reports are correct it only stopped because a guard pulled the emergency handle in time.

My understanding is those reports are not correct, and that the driver stopped the train (and managed its speed approaching Waverley such that despite the failure the train didn’t at any point exceed line speed) on the loco brake.

EDIT:- my understanding is incorrect - see excerpt from RAIB investigation announcement below.

BJames · 30 Aug 2019

JN114 said:
I cannot express in terms strongly enough - Skip stopping is not an emergency, and no passenger should be interfering with safety equipment for frivolous reasons in an attempt to point score against the train operator.

In the outlandish hypothetical situations you describe there’s an awful lot of people in the chain above the humble passenger whose job it is to notice things like hijackings and brake failures. Let them get on with their job. If you are concerned first speak to a member of staff, or get in contact with BTP.

...is the correct answer. Couldn't have put it better.

Flying Snail · 30 Aug 2019

Robin87 said:
LOL, it's not some "fantasy", no. I'm just pedantic about these rare "what if" scenarios. I'm surprised that it's never actually happened yet, at least not that I'm aware.

Has this scenario actually happened? Has a service you have been on ever skipped a stop without any prior notice?

It would also be useful to know what route and stations we are talking about here, there is a world of difference between a station with a 15min frequency being missed and a train zipping past Corrour?

I am guessing that all that is actually happening is that you are being inconvenienced and delayed, while not something that should happen this is far from an emergency either and your wish to make a big deal out of it along with playing the disability card is blowing the severity of your situation out of proportion.

Bertie the bus · 31 Aug 2019

JN114 said:
My understanding is those reports are not correct, and that the driver stopped the train (and managed its speed approaching Waverley such that despite the failure the train didn’t at any point exceed line speed) on the loco brake.

You obviously know more about it than the people whose job it is to investigate these things then:

This meant that the only effective brakes on the train as it approached Edinburgh were those on the locomotive, which were insufficient to maintain control of the train. The train was brought to a stand by the operation of an emergency device in one of the coaches by the Train Manager, which caused the train brakes to apply.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...assenger-train-approaching-edinburgh-waverley

JN114 · 31 Aug 2019

Bertie the bus said:
You obviously know more about it than the people whose job it is to investigate these things then:

No, my understanding was obviously incorrect. That’s why I’d worded it the way I did; prefacing that I didn’t know, just that what I’d been led to believe contradicted what had been posted. In that case it was entirely appropriate that a member of staff used the passcomm to attempt to stop the train, they have the route knowledge and will have known what is going on. It may even have been a coordinated action with the driver, given I’d expect that the driver and guard can contact each other (on our sleeper train while there is no built-in driver/guard apparatus, both have handheld radios to communicate in such emergencies). I’ll edit in a note on the bottom of my post highlighting the error of my ways if it will help you sleep easier tonight.

All this doesn’t mean that such behaviour on the part of an underinformed member of the public should be condoned.

Emergency alarm for skipped stop?

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