Class 304 EMUs

randyrippley · 18 Aug 2019

AM9 said:
I think that it was more the forseen end of coal traffic across the Pennines and to/from Barnsley. By the '60s, the passenger service, (which wasn't the real reason for electrification), was being slowly run down, in part because it was getting in the way of the freight services. Beeching dictated that there wasn't the requirement for two cross-pennine lines and there was less passenger demand on the Woodhead route. The EM2 locos were the first to be scrapped, leaving the EM1s to run slow but heavy goods services.
Once the cross-Pennine trains stopped in the '80s, the remaining line to Glossop/Hadfield was just a spur from Piccadilliy representing a island in an increasing ac landscape.

the EM2 fleet were NOT scrapped, they went to Holland

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AM9 · 18 Aug 2019

randyrippley said:
the EM2 fleet were NOT scrapped, they went to Holland

They were scrapped in terms of UK use, and they've gone now.

Sir Felix Pole · 18 Aug 2019

AM9 said:
I think that it was more the forseen end of coal traffic across the Pennines and to/from Barnsley. By the '60s, the passenger service, (which wasn't the real reason for electrification), was being slowly run down, in part because it was getting in the way of the freight services. Beeching dictated that there wasn't the requirement for two cross-pennine lines and there was less passenger demand on the Woodhead route. The EM2 locos were the first to be scrapped, leaving the EM1s to run slow but heavy goods services.
Once the cross-Pennine trains stopped in the '80s, the remaining line to Glossop/Hadfield was just a spur from Piccadilliy representing a island in an increasing ac landscape.

Not strictly accurate - Beeching proposed retention of the Woodhead route and closure of the Hope Valley. The 'express' route from Manchester to Sheffield from nationalisation onwards was always the former, the latter served only by an infrequent stopping service. Withdrawal of passenger services over Woodhead came with the need to accomodate MGR trains for the new Fiddler's Ferry Power Station from 1970 - the real tragedy is that is was not converted to 25kV AC at that point when spare AC locos were becoming available. It would have probably meant that the superior, in my opinion, main-line between Manchester and Sheffield would still be with us today.

In 1960 the LMR management had others things on their mind such as the stalling WCML electrification project , to even contemplate taking on conversion of Woodhead to 25kV AC! The equipment was still pretty new and in any event, converting the EM1 and EM2s, essentially a pre-war design, to 25kV AC a non-starter.

This is a long way from Cl 304s however - I commuted on them for many years and whilst they had a certain charm I was not sorry to see the back of them. The ride was diabolical with a 'bucking bronco' start and a 'kangaroo' motion once under way. The oscillation could be quite severe if it got into a rythym and would be broken only by crossing points or braking. The Cl 323s were such an improvement and are one of my favourite EMUs - I am pleased that Northern is to retain them and indeed expand the fleet.

john prytherch · 19 Aug 2019

I have happy memories of AM4s, especially of them slipping around Edge Hill. And of AM10s. And, I think twice, of them running coupled together! This was obviously undesirable as they were differently geared. But I don't think anything in the operating instructions or in the general or sectional appendices prohibited it, and I do recall it happening to me as a passenger twice. My preference was always the motor coach.

John Prytherch.

AndrewE · 19 Aug 2019

Sir Felix Pole said:
This is a long way from Cl 304s however - I commuted on them for many years and whilst they had a certain charm I was not sorry to see the back of them. The ride was diabolical with a 'bucking bronco' start and a 'kangaroo' motion once under way. The oscillation could be quite severe if it got into a rythym and would be broken only by crossing points or braking. The Cl 323s were such an improvement and are one of my favourite EMUs - I am pleased that Northern is to retain them and indeed expand the fleet.

The problem with the 304s was only that the leaf springs had been oiled or greased, so the inherent damping had been lost. I liked the AM4s when I commuted on them, the bounciness wan't really a problem.

john prytherch said:
I have happy memories of AM4s, especially of them slipping around Edge Hill. And of AM10s. And, I think twice, of them running coupled together! This was obviously undesirable as they were differently geared. ...

In the 1970s I worked with the man who did the altered unit diagrams for each week, and on one occasion the aftermath of engineering work had caused a Sunday evening Birmingham - Manchester to be worked by a 304/310 combination, supposedly fully compatible units (I don't know about depot traction knowledge though, that wasn't my patch.)
I was on it with my family and leaving Bham New St and every subsequent station was a nightmare: the 2 units accelerated about half a second apart at each "notching up," so there was a pair of violent longitudinal buffetings over and over again. People still sorting themselves out were falling over, luggage was coming off the racks, it was clearly not an acceptable position.
I told the guard about it when we got off (no through gangways or communication then) and he couldn't understand it ("You mean oscillation?" - "Not really, more like snatching forwards and backwards!")
I told my colleague: he was very interested, and he commented that he had noticed that it was an unusual, but permitted, working and he resolved never to do it again.
p.s so I don't think it was the "gearing" as such, but the different time-delays in the electrical control gear.

ChiefPlanner · 19 Aug 2019

Probably mentioned this before , but a good friend as ASM Crewe , in some dire operating problem , fabricated a special to Euston with a 304 one bad service day. The Regional Control at Crewe insisted (probably on humanitarian grounds) , it be terminated southbound at Rugby. I suspect his motive was not just to keep the passengers moving , but to get them out of his hair.

Journeyman · 20 Aug 2019

ChiefPlanner said:
Probably mentioned this before , but a good friend as ASM Crewe , in some dire operating problem , fabricated a special to Euston with a 304 one bad service day. The Regional Control at Crewe insisted (probably on humanitarian grounds) , it be terminated southbound at Rugby. I suspect his motive was not just to keep the passengers moving , but to get them out of his hair.

Did 304s ever regularly make it to Euston? I certainly don't ever recall seeing any, but then I never regularly made it to Euston either!

Peter Mugridge · 20 Aug 2019

Journeyman said:
Did 304s ever regularly make it to Euston? I certainly don't ever recall seeing any, but then I never regularly made it to Euston either!

I'm pretty sure someone, a few years ago, posted a photo of one at Euston but they never had diagrammed work there.

87015 · 20 Aug 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
I'm pretty sure someone, a few years ago, posted a photo of one at Euston but they never had diagrammed work there.

Diagrammed or not, regular through the ‘70s working turn about with 310s.

Taunton · 20 Aug 2019

They were in Euston right at the start of electrification there, before the 310 were built, and before the full electrification timetable came in. I recall seeing one there.

AndrewE · 20 Aug 2019

Taunton said:
They were in Euston right at the start of electrification there, before the 310 were built, and before the full electrification timetable came in. I recall seeing one there.

That's interesting. I used to cycle to Tring station with my friend to stand on the temporary scaffolding overbridge and breathe in the last steam engine exhaust while the old enclosed foot bridge was being replaced. Later we bought day returns to Watford and such places to ride behind the cab on the AM10s, but I can't ever remember seeing an AM4.

6Gman · 20 Aug 2019

I have no recollection of seeing an AM4 south of Rugby (which they reached regularly on Trent Valley locals). I suspect there was a traction knowledge issue further south.

D1537 · 21 Aug 2019

Very common at Rugby, indeed I used to regularly catch the 06xx Trent Valley service which was always a 304. I'm pretty sure there used to be Northampton diagrams, on the rush-hour Birmingham route. I certainly had one from Northampton going north myself. And once (this would have been late 80s) I was travelling into Euston and saw one parked up in the carriage sidings. I have no idea what it was doing there.

AndrewE · 21 Aug 2019

D1537 said:
Very common at Rugby, indeed I used to regularly catch the 06xx Trent Valley service which was always a 304. I'm pretty sure there used to be Northampton diagrams, on the rush-hour Birmingham route. I certainly had one from Northampton going north myself. And once (this would have been late 80s) I was travelling into Euston and saw one parked up in the carriage sidings. I have no idea what it was doing there.

Maybe the driver who would have taken it over didn't have the traction knowledge.

jfollows · 21 Aug 2019

A very enjoyable thread for me, I travelled on AM4s every school day from September 1970 to March 1980. They were clearly outdated even when relatively new when I started using them (Poynton to Cheadle Hulme). AM10s were an order of magnitude better, and had reliable diagrams, including (post May 1974) the 16:10 and 17:30 Manchester to Macclesfield services, which were obviously the same unit. I can't say I enjoyed a full compartment on 001-015 which certainly got cosy.

I never saw one south of Rugby either, but I was only an occasional visitor starting from about 1977.

The units always felt solid and reliable, and fit for purpose.

86247 · 21 Aug 2019

had a few 304's Liverpool to crewe I spent most of the time in the air then sitting down and boy they could be like a sauna at times with that heating one memorable day I had a 304 to crewe and we actually stopped in the old ditton platforms as the signal was at red the one and only time that happened

Helvellyn · 21 Aug 2019

Was there ever consideration to giving the 304s a GE style refurbishment (as done to say the 307s)?

GSIBoss01 · 27 Aug 2019

Enjoyed reading this thread about the good old Class 304s, I used to live next to the Altrincham line and travelled many times on the 304s and also the 303s which did used to get coupled together on odd occasions. Class 310s were seen quite regular on the Altrincham line in the early 80s. I mainly used to see them coupled to a 304 on the last train up (maybe empty stock run) from Altrincham which used to go none stop through Brooklands and Sale so would come past at a considerable pace. I can remember when the 304s started losing their TC cars so for a short time had a mixture of 3 and 4 car sets. We also had the DMUs going through to Chester before they got diverted onto the Stockport - Cheadle - Skeleton Junction route, these used to run from Sale none stop to Altrincham and were mainly class 101 / 104 / 108s. Stuck with the Metrolink now which just do not interest me like the old EMU /DMUs

Ash Bridge · 31 Aug 2019

GSIBoss01 said:
Enjoyed reading this thread about the good old Class 304s, I used to live next to the Altrincham line and travelled many times on the 304s and also the 303s which did used to get coupled together on odd occasions. Class 310s were seen quite regular on the Altrincham line in the early 80s. I mainly used to see them coupled to a 304 on the last train up (maybe empty stock run) from Altrincham which used to go none stop through Brooklands and Sale so would come past at a considerable pace. I can remember when the 304s started losing their TC cars so for a short time had a mixture of 3 and 4 car sets. We also had the DMUs going through to Chester before they got diverted onto the Stockport - Cheadle - Skeleton Junction route, these used to run from Sale none stop to Altrincham and were mainly class 101 / 104 / 108s. Stuck with the Metrolink now which just do not interest me like the old EMU /DMUs

I'm old enough to remember the 304s running as 4 car units, but struggling to remember exactly when the trailer composites were withdrawn. Also did they run initially with the 1st class compartments declassified for a time or were the cars simply removed and disposed of? Welcome to the forum btw!

delt1c · 31 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
I'm old enough to remember the 304s running as 4 car units, but struggling to remember exactly when the trailer composites were withdrawn. Also did they run initially with the 1st class compartments declassified for a time or were the cars simply removed and disposed of? Welcome to the forum btw!

The old grey cells not fully functioning 8-)

Ash Bridge · 31 Aug 2019

delt1c said:
The old grey cells not fully functioning

Most certainly a strong factor here, surprising really though for someone so youthful......

delt1c · 31 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
Most certainly a strong factor here, surprising really though for someone so youthful......

At this age what you hope for is Tooth full never mind youth full

Andy R. A. · 31 Aug 2019

The 304s turned up at Euston more often than you think. I remember one week a 304 worked 2A62 0921 off Birmingham via Northampton due in at 1154, and 2G01 1205 Birmingham via Northampton on three consecutive days. They would turn up occasionally when a 310 was missing. They normally appeared on the long distance Birminghams, didn't note them on the Bletchley workings.
Someone mentioned that they had been used on a relief from Crewe. On Monday 05.04.76 1M15 1930 Inverness to Euston had been severely delayed, and a 304 was used in 1M15's booked path from Crewe as 1L15. I had often wondered how many people used 1M15 to travel up to town on in the morning ? On this occasion the 304 rolled up with just three passengers and the crew of two. It had just about managed to keep to the scheduled times, and returned empty to Crewe soon after arriving.

Andy.

yorksrob · 31 Aug 2019

Andy R. A. said:
The 304s turned up at Euston more often than you think. I remember one week a 304 worked 2A62 0921 off Birmingham via Northampton due in at 1154, and 2G01 1205 Birmingham via Northampton on three consecutive days. They would turn up occasionally when a 310 was missing. They normally appeared on the long distance Birminghams, didn't note them on the Bletchley workings.
Someone mentioned that they had been used on a relief from Crewe. On Monday 05.04.76 1M15 1930 Inverness to Euston had been severely delayed, and a 304 was used in 1M15's booked path from Crewe as 1L15. I had often wondered how many people used 1M15 to travel up to town on in the morning ? On this occasion the 304 rolled up with just three passengers and the crew of two. It had just about managed to keep to the scheduled times, and returned empty to Crewe soon after arriving.

Andy.

Doing an InterCity type journey (not including Southern Region pre-sectorisation IC routes) on a slam door EMU (or DEMU) is something I would have loved to have done, but alas never did (that rake of 308's never did appear on a Leeds - Kings Cross

).

AM9 · 31 Aug 2019

yorksrob said:
Doing an InterCity type journey (not including Southern Region pre-sectorisation IC routes) on a slam door EMU (or DEMU) is something I would have loved to have done, but alas never did (that rake of 308's never did appear on a Leeds - Kings Cross ).

I presume that you wouldn't be that confident if you were in a six-a-side compartment and it was non-stop, e.g. KGX to YRK (which might then skip-stop when it's slipped about 30 minutes from its path, next stop EDB)!

yorksrob · 31 Aug 2019

AM9 said:
I presume that you wouldn't be that confident if you were in a six-a-side compartment and it was non-stop, e.g. KGX to YRK (which might then skip-stop when it's slipped about 30 minutes from its path, next stop EDB)!

That might be tricky with my current metabolism.

But fortunately the 308's didn't have any six aside compartments by the time they'd reached Yorkshire (infact they were vestibule throughout).

delt1c · 31 Aug 2019

AM9 said:
I presume that you wouldn't be that confident if you were in a six-a-side compartment and it was non-stop, e.g. KGX to YRK (which might then skip-stop when it's slipped about 30 minutes from its path, next stop EDB)!

I can remember 5 aside comatments on most units. But wasn’t 6 aside confined to the SR 4 SUB’s?

Sprinter107 · 31 Aug 2019

Ash Bridge said:
I'm old enough to remember the 304s running as 4 car units, but struggling to remember exactly when the trailer composites were withdrawn. Also did they run initially with the 1st class compartments declassified for a time or were the cars simply removed and disposed of? Welcome to the forum btw!

The trailer composites did run with the first class compartments declassified. I can remember them being quite vandalised not long before they were taken out of service. Think it was about 1983 or 1984 that they started making the 304s 3 car sets.

Ash Bridge · 31 Aug 2019

Sprinter107 said:
The trailer composites did run with the first class compartments declassified. I can remember them being quite vandalised not long before they were taken out of service. Think it was about 1983 or 1984 that they started making the 304s 3 car sets.

Ah, many thanks for filling the gaps in my memory

I could remember the local DMUs (classes 100/103/104/105/108s etc.) being declassified about 12 years previous, but for some reason not the EMUs.

yorksrob · 31 Aug 2019

delt1c said:
I can remember 5 aside comatments on most units. But wasn’t 6 aside confined to the SR 4 SUB’s?

The EPB's had them as well at the start.

Class 304 EMUs

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