Southampton - stopped at barriers when ticket not accepted by gate

Minor matter but is this typical do people think?

Back in late July 2 of us arrived at Southampton Central with OP Rtn tickets from Lewes to Southampton bought with a 2 together railcard.

Context:
Carrying luggage so tried to use the wider gate to exit platform. Gate refuses ticket.

I show ticket to staff member on duty. She insists on seeing railcard (obv she is in her rights to ask, even though obv a nuisance as my hand full of luggage). Lets me through.

Ms Lancer is behind me and of course predicts that gate will refuse her ticket too. So shows it to staff member, who insists she put it in the gate, where upon it is also refused.

Staff then again insists on seeing the 2-together railcard. Lets Ms Lancer through.

I (politely) point out that it is unhelpful if the gates will not accept the tickets, to which I am told along lines of 'its because of the Railcard'.

I regarded this as such an improbable answer that I respond and say along lines of 'seems unlikley, as if the railcards result in that large proportions of tickets would be rejected and you would have a massive queue'. Staff member rather takes offence at me 'answering back' but that's another matter (I put this down to her 'making up an excuse as she goes along and not liking to be challenged on it - but no real issue, she's trying to do her job, probably with limited ticket validity training)

Key point:
My question is - is it typical for a fairly standard ticket issued to a destination - albeit issued by another TOC - to fail to open ticket gates at that destination?

Just wondered what people thought (I'm well used to Rovers and such like never operating gates).

Yes, many stations have the barriers set to reject railcard discounted tickets, to force manual inspection.

London Bridge is one such station.

I understand the potential for abuse so I get why the companies do it, but it makes the travel experience significantly worse, especially when you are grappling with luggage.

James H said:

Yes, many stations have the barriers set to reject railcard discounted tickets, to force manual inspection.

London Bridge is one such station.

I understand the potential for abuse so I get why the companies do it, but it makes the travel experience significantly worse, especially when you are grappling with luggage.

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Discounted Network Card tickets are also rejected by the barriers at Dorking Main (formerly North) station when interchanging from Dorking Deepdene station and they are also rejected by the barrier only entry point on the other side of Horsham station from the main concourse entrance.

At Horsham its a considerable hassle as until you have had it happen to you its not obvious that there is a hidden button at the unmanned barrier point (which is actually on the barrier control unit to one side and not on the barriers themselves) to summon assistance and a camera built in to the assistance point that you then waive your valid ticket and Network card at (they can open them remotely). All of which might potentially hold you up for two or three minutes if you were close to your train's departure time. In fact I was in such a hurry and didn't know about the button the first time but did manage to wriggle my way through the barriers with some effort despite being 19 stone and 6ft 3in tall - although was a bit painful to do so in hindsight but my next train to Southampton didn't go for another hour......

Another example of the many problems caused for passengers in the obsessive quest for revenue enforcement.

Yes I agree with the two responses above; station operators have the ability to customise the acceptance of tickets at gatelines; the extent to which they can do this will probably depend on the specification of the specific gates in question and what options the gate supplier makes available.

Some rejections may be deliberate, some may be accidental, and some may be due to software limitations.

Thanks all for responses, interesting. Logical of course, but a bit daft really given barriers are pinch points. Better on train checking would in my view be where railcards should be checked.

I guess there is an element of railcard fraud here (buying tickets from TVMs etc at discount without actually having a railcard) but given that large numbers of railcards must be in use getting barriers to reject them must cause probs esp at busy times.

WesternLancer said:

Thanks all for responses, interesting. Logical of course, but a bit daft really given barriers are pinch points. Better on train checking would in my view be where railcards should be checked.

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I think on train checking simply isn't practical on their busiest lines (like the Gatwick and Brighton line) in the peak hour periods and in any case there are no longer guards or train supervisors on most of their services to carry out this task. Even between Dorking and Horsham (where there is still a guard to comply with regulatory requirements for unmanned stations with short platforms) they often no longer generally bother checking tickets since the introduction of fully automated ticket machines at stations that originally had no staff and no ticket machine at all and then only a permit to travel machine. The only people now dodging the fares are those travelling to other ungated stations outside London that don't have barriers. Plus certain people who are totally outside the law and blatantly leap the barriers in the sight of cctv and barrier attendants.

I guess there is an element of railcard fraud here (buying tickets from TVMs etc at discount without actually having a railcard) but given that large numbers of railcards must be in use getting barriers to reject them must cause probs esp at busy times.

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Yes it causes lots of problems such as when South West Trains shut down all the TVMs at Southampton Central on Monday morning to stop people buying Anytime fares and also not receive Railcard discounts leaving the still to be ticketed passengers (who are numerous on a bank holiday) queuing 20 deep at a single manned ticket window whilst they also didn't open the automated barriers to alleviate the situation/

Numerous customers must have missed their trains as a result but they don't care as effectively they are a monopoly unless you have access to a car and are able to park it where you are going so people still have to use their service no matter how badly they treat them.

All the rail companies care about is maximising their revenue no matter what the cost to passenger convenience and comfort............

I suspect Southern's barriers may not enforce the 4.15pm to 7.15pm time restriction in the evening period leaving London Termini on Super Off Peak Return (Non Travelcard) tickets and of course they can't do this on Super Off Peak Travelcard tickets as the ticket only becomes invalid when the train passes the Zone 6 boundary and the passenger might be planning to leave the train before that point if their travel day is not yet over.

James H said:

Yes, many stations have the barriers set to reject railcard discounted tickets, to force manual inspection.

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Why can't they have a system like on LUL when for example when a child ticket is put through its not rejected but a bleep alerts barrier staff that it is a child ticket and they therefore can check eligibility if they see fit?

Mag_seven said:

Why can't they have a system like on LUL when for example when a child ticket is put through its not rejected but a bleep alerts barrier staff that it is a child ticket and they therefore can check eligibility if they see fit?

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The reason why is because GoVia Thameslink (or at least the Southern Railway part of it) is a horrible company that sees its passenger as cash cow dummies who have to use their services regardless and who they can mistreat and abuse in any way they like in order to extract even more revenue from them.

No Carnet tickets on the Southern Key and no Super Off Peak Travelcards at stations with a Super Off Peak Ticket and no named Southern Railway station managers all speak to a consistent bad attitude by Go Via Thameslink Management towards their customers.

Capvermell said:

The reason why is because GoVia Thameslink (or at least the Southern Railway part of it) is a horrible company that sees its passenger as cash cow dummies who have to use their services regardless and who they can mistreat and abuse in any way they like in order to extract even more revenue from them.

No Carnet tickets on the Southern Key and no Super Off Peak Travelcards at stations with a Super Off Peak Ticket and no named Southern Railway station managers all speak to a consistent bad attitude by Go Via Thameslink Management towards their customers.

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I tend to agree with your view - tho at S'Ton it was SWR staff of course (!)

Ref Southern - isn't this actually a DfT sort of management contract - so given the governing party are the architects of a system that advocated how private operators would improve the customer experience you might expect DfT to instruct the operator to make a better effort at doing just that....

I had the railcard in my wallet safely in my trouser pocket, having got the ticket out of my wallet before approaching the barrier so it was to hand, then holding my suitcase in my other hand and a back pack on my back.

I can not recall any previous occasion when I've ever been asked to show a r-card at a barrier now I think about it, hence my OP.

But, Not sure how dextrous one would have to be to both be able to slot a ticket in the gate and hold a railcard and photocard in the same hand in case you then have to stop to be able to show them both to the staff when the gate won't open, without holding up the queue much more than required, whilst with a suitcase in the other hand.

WesternLancer said:

But, Not sure how dextrous one would have to be to both be able to slot a ticket in the gate and hold a railcard and photocard in the same hand in case you then have to stop to be able to show them both to the staff when the gate won't open, without holding up the queue much more than required, whilst with a suitcase in the other hand.

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I don't find this particularly difficult, but it does involve removing the ticket from the railcard wallet (I find this the best place to keep them) before one reaches the gateline.

Obviously the train operators could move the railcard discounted fare validation process to the point of sale by either supplying a Smart Card network card that the physical points of sale terminals at the stations could read or by requiring you to provide a valid network card number and owner name and address or at least postcode and house name or number when you buy a ticket online or at the station ticket machines. That way a discounted railcard ticket wouldn't be any harder to present at the barrier than any other ticket. Or they could make the network card ticket a smartcard ticket (or have it loaded on to a smartcard used for other rail ticketing purposes like The Key) that would then have any ticket you bought loaded on to it at the ticketing machines at the stations and you could then wave that smartcard at the smartcard reader at the barriers. Or of course the whole thing could be done through a smartphone and the ticket and network loaded on to that too. Again the barriers would then only have one thing to automatically read.

The current paper railcard ticket and paper railcard card system is archaic and in need of replacement and modernisation.

30907 said:

I don't find this particularly difficult, but it does involve removing the ticket from the railcard wallet (I find this the best place to keep them) before one reaches the gateline.

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The wallet is only the best place to keep network cards because they are a feeble plastic coated ticket (little better than an individual journey ticket) that is easily damaged. If they were a hard credit or debit card contactless card like The Key or Oyster then they could easily be kept in a wallet card sleeve without any need for a plastic protective cover. If a holder photo was required that could also be embossed on to the card although a PIN number might well be adequate security protection.

Capvermell said:

Obviously the train operators could move the railcard discounted fare validation process to the point of sale by either supplying a Smart Card network card that the physical points of sale terminals at the stations could read or by requiring you to provide a valid network card number and owner name and address or at least postcode and house name or number when you buy a ticket online or at the station ticket machines. That way a discounted railcard ticket wouldn't be any harder to present at the barrier than any other ticket. Or they could make the network card ticket a smartcard ticket (or have it loaded on to a smartcard used for other rail ticketing purposes like The Key) that would then have any ticket you bought loaded on to it at the ticketing machines at the stations and you could then wave that smartcard at the smartcard reader at the barriers. Or of course the whole thing could be done through a smartphone and the ticket and network loaded on to that too. Again the barriers would then only have one thing to automatically read.
.

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Whilst reading the thread I was thinking if there was another solution. Could the railcard have a QR code printed on them which could be read by the ticket machine? Thus, if you put a discounted ticket through the barrier machine, the barrier would not open until you had swiped the QR code. On the other hand, your suggestion of supplying the railcard number at the time of purchase (either at a ticket office or ticket machine) would probably be better.

I just realised that the barriers at London Victoria don't currently challenge a Network card discounted Travelcard so it seems they prefer to challenge passengers at the less busy out of London station barriers where their ticket staff have more time to manually check the validity of the customer's railcard.

On “Cubic” gates you can set rules which, if met, can either Monitor (display a light on the barrier), Alarm (an audible chime, sometimes known as a “child alarm”), Reject or a combination of all these.
For example you can reject or alarm all 16-25 ticket holders, or tickets from a particular destination.

district said:

On “Cubic” gates you can set rules which, if met, can either Monitor (display a light on the barrier), Alarm (an audible chime, sometimes known as a “child alarm”), Reject or a combination of all these.
For example you can reject or alarm all 16-25 ticket holders, or tickets from a particular destination.

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The vast majority of National Rail gates are Cubic a lot of people tend to forget some TOCs have other suppliers.

30907 said:

I don't find this particularly difficult, but it does involve removing the ticket from the railcard wallet (I find this the best place to keep them) before one reaches the gateline.

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Sorry - I realise I was not clear when I said 'wallet'. I meant my actual leather wallet with bank cards, notes etc. I keep the railcrd in the plastic TOC wallet t protect it from damage, in the leather wallet. So in this case I'd got the tickt out of the leather wallet for the gates, then had to stop again, get the leather wallet out of my pocket, extract the TOC plastic wallet, unfold it to show the staff etc - all at 1st one handed due to suitcase, which then had to be put down to facilitate this - only a couple of mins task but at a busy gateline after a train arrives it struck me that this was not helpful.

But as explained above obv the TOC has set the gates in order to prompt such checks, for the reason we will all appreciate.

Requiring proof of rail card at time of purchase removes the flexibility to buy the ticket well in advance but not to purchase the rail card until several days before travel.

Nor does it solve the inverse problem of the rail card expiring in between ticket purchase and the day of travel, unless there is some validation of dates as part of the purchase process.

IME Two Together discounts are usually rejected

My Disabled Adult tickets are regularly rejected at Birmingham New St.

After a days travel with a Lonon zone 1 - 6 Travelcard, it starts to give up the ghost opening barriers around early evening.....

I've got a suggestion. If the railcards were like contactless cards, we could touch in the ticket first followed by the railcard and the gate would let us through? Obviously it's way in the future but
*touch ticket* > three lights
*Green* no problem, gate opens
*Amber* means you have to follow up by touching your railcard followed by *green* gate opens
*Red* seek assistance.
So the majority of times the railcard holder would be through within a second.

WesternLancer said:

Minor matter but is this typical do people think?

Back in late July 2 of us arrived at Southampton Central with OP Rtn tickets from Lewes to Southampton bought with a 2 together railcard.

Context:
Carrying luggage so tried to use the wider gate to exit platform. Gate refuses ticket.

I show ticket to staff member on duty. She insists on seeing railcard (obv she is in her rights to ask, even though obv a nuisance as my hand full of luggage). Lets me through.

Ms Lancer is behind me and of course predicts that gate will refuse her ticket too. So shows it to staff member, who insists she put it in the gate, where upon it is also refused.

Staff then again insists on seeing the 2-together railcard. Lets Ms Lancer through.

I (politely) point out that it is unhelpful if the gates will not accept the tickets, to which I am told along lines of 'its because of the Railcard'.

I regarded this as such an improbable answer that I respond and say along lines of 'seems unlikely, as if the railcards result in that large proportions of tickets would be rejected and you would have a massive queue'. Staff member rather takes offence at me 'answering back' but that's another matter (I put this down to her 'making up an excuse as she goes along and not liking to be challenged on it - but no real issue, she's trying to do her job, probably with limited ticket validity training)
...

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Is it possible you might have slightly foundered on the attitude test?

I appreciate that it seems she didn't kick off the encounter in the best way by asking to see the Two-Together Railcard twice, though perhaps you subsconciously expressed enough irritation at the very beginning when she asked to see the Railcard the first time to 'set her off' (as it were).

It's not right, but I am aware that gateline staff can get such grief from people trying it on that I do cut them some slack if they are a bit grumpy - a smile and a word of thanks often works wonders (as it does in many situations). That's not to excuse gateline staff 'making up their own rules' (or perhaps more to the point repeating the erroneous 'received wisdom' of colleagues and superiors rather than just inventing it themselves), though it's not hard to imagine that their training on ticket validity is minimal at best. But this specific scenario was not an example of that.

The barriers at Stevenage normally accept railcard discounted tickets (I often use Network railcard tickets here), but this past Saturday they were set to reject such tickets, as they were carrying out revenue checks for most of the day.

Joe Paxton said:

Is it possible you might have slightly foundered on the attitude test?

I appreciate that it seems she didn't kick off the encounter in the best way by asking to see the Two-Together Railcard twice, though perhaps you subsconciously expressed enough irritation at the very beginning when she asked to see the Railcard the first time to 'set her off' (as it were).

It's not right, but I am aware that gateline staff can get such grief from people trying it on that I do cut them some slack if they are a bit grumpy - a smile and a word of thanks often works wonders (as it does in many situations). That's not to excuse gateline staff 'making up their own rules' (or perhaps more to the point repeating the erroneous 'received wisdom' of colleagues and superiors rather than just inventing it themselves), though it's not hard to imagine that their training on ticket validity is minimal at best. But this specific scenario was not an example of that.

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No, I don't think so really, but - I take your point and tho it was annoying to be asked when I had a load of luggage and my hands full I accepted that she had a right to ask. Given that the next person was then the other person pictured on the 2-together photocard that she had just seen and presumably checked - it seemed pretty daft to then require said 2nd person to put the same ticket in the gate to have it predictably rejected and then ask to see the railcard again!

But that was all context really - my OP was to ask if gates really do get programmed to reject tickets to prompt r-card checks and as various posters have confirmed it seems that on occasion they do. This has been helpful to learn from various points made on this thread.

Silver Cobra said:

The barriers at Stevenage normally accept railcard discounted tickets (I often use Network railcard tickets here), but this past Saturday they were set to reject such tickets, as they were carrying out revenue checks for most of the day.

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I travelled from Stevenage yesterday and they were carrying out checks of railcards.

On weekdays though the Super Off Peak day tickets introduced in January this year never work the barriers, Railcard or not.

Advance tickets never work the barriers either at Stevenage.

WesternLancer said:

Given that the next person was then the other person pictured on the 2-together photocard that she had just seen and presumably checked - it seemed pretty daft to then require said 2nd person to put the same ticket in the gate to have it predictably rejected and then ask to see the railcard again!

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I doubt the member of staff would have taken in much about Ms Lancer's picture when dealing with your ticket. There are about a dozen things she needs to check to validate each ticket, and the appearance of a photo of someone she may never have seen isn't really one of them.

If the member of staff had known you were both there she could have looked at your tickets together, and checked you both against the pictures on the railcard, and so checked everything more quickly. On the other hand, if you hadn't both been there (I don't know if there's any rule to say you need to go through barriers together) but the member of staff asked for Ms Lancer, there's a risk you may have hesitated to look around or to explain where she is, and slowed thing down.

I wonder if it would be worth pointing out the person you're travelling with to the person on the barrier when a "two together" discounted ticket is rejected.

kieron said:

I doubt the member of staff would have taken in much about Ms Lancer's picture when dealing with your ticket. There are about a dozen things she needs to check to validate each ticket, and the appearance of a photo of someone she may never have seen isn't really one of them.

If the member of staff had known you were both there she could have looked at your tickets together, and checked you both against the pictures on the railcard, and so checked everything more quickly. On the other hand, if you hadn't both been there (I don't know if there's any rule to say you need to go through barriers together) but the member of staff asked for Ms Lancer, there's a risk you may have hesitated to look around or to explain where she is, and slowed thing down.

I wonder if it would be worth pointing out the person you're travelling with to the person on the barrier when a "two together" discounted ticket is rejected.

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Thanks - tho in this case it was very obvious we were together. I probably even said so. The staff member still insisted that the ticket be submitted to the barrier slot even when it would have been clear that it would be rejected as it had railcard details on it. Mine was just rejected after all. So it was pointless since the default is to actually check it or the point of asking to see it has no point.

It was more a case of making all tickets 'try' the barrier as a default stance (which is fair enough in such a task).

I can only really think of 4 things worth checking:
Ticket date/ correct destination / railcard present / railcard valid (peak / off peak etc not applicable as it was well into the off peak time of day) - but since the ticket failed the machine all of the things needed checking by sight - no point in even submitting it to the machine.

But as I have said up thread, none of this was the question in my OP!