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TfL Fare Evasion Opportunities with Contactless

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Cdd89

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As many already know, with the move to accepting Contactless Payment, TfL are almost entirely reliant on barriers for fare enforcement on public transport. This is due to the (now well-publicised) fact that Revenue Inspectors – themselves a rare sight – cannot check the status of Contactless payment cards in real-time.

And yet despite the above fact:
  • There are multiple central stations, and multiple stations outside zone 3, where no barriers are in place
  • Multiple central stations have lesser-used entrances where barriers are routinely left open
  • The ever-increasing expansion of the Contactless-only PAYG network means that opportunities exist for substantial short-faring or dumb-belling, even where barriers cannot be avoided at one or both ends
None of the above issues are new, but what is new is that the threat of an RPI sting or on-board ticket checks – the only deterrent that exists to the above ruses – are now meaningless. (Obviously there is a maximum fare of £8.60, but this is a) often less than the actual fare on many journeys, and b) contingent on an inspector being present, which is a <1% probability for many journeys). A sufficiently-motivated fare evader can easily acquire a (prepaid) Contactless payment card (with a minimal balance) in a false name, or virtual cards compatible with mobile Contactless payment systems.

It’s astonishing that Train Operating Companies have accepted this (given their concerns about the Oyster Extension Permit some years ago!), and yet here we are. In my opinion, this major limitation should have been a blocker to implementing Contactless, but instead we have a system that is ripe for a specific kind of abuse most appealing to hardened fare evaders which is only detectable in retrospect. In particular, I think it’s telling that almost 11k Contactless payment cards have failed Revenue Inspection 3 times in the preceding 20 month period.

TfL believe revenue protection arrangements for Contactless “work well”. I completely disagree – and I think the only reason the problem is not more endemic is because fare evaders are, for the most past, unaware that their Contactless card must be taken on trust. (I’m aware of the irony in this post therefore – but it’s well-publicised elsewhere including outside this site (and in public TfL documents [p.60+]), meaning I suspect it is a growing problem regardless!). I cannot think of any other type of fare evasion which can be conducted so regularly, with effectively zero risk to the person involved in the fraud.

My opinion is that (short of abandoning Contactless) TfL should be working hard toward a system of RIDs being able to check Contactless payment card touch-in/touch-out validation in real time. This is obviously not an easy task - but I see no reason why entry/exit gates can't upload the "last 6 digits" of card numbers (along with a timestamp) to a basic revenue protection database within minutes, which retains records in that database for 315 minutes, with the central system tracking the last successful update time for every station (noting the "oldest updated time" of that list). This data could be made available to RIDs for live interrogation, and downloaded to RIDs for use where the Internet is temporarily unavailable (with a "last download time" recorded on the RID). If a card is valid for travel but not on the RID as confirmed as being touched in recently, it could display a question mark along with the "oldest updated station time" (and the RID's "last download time", if offline). If the inspector is aware that the passenger has been on board earlier than both those times, they would be aware that a card was not valid; and if they had suspicions, they could check again once both times had been updated.
 
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bionic

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I've said this before, but just stand at Brixton or Nunhead (both in zone 2) for a few trains and watch how many punters who jumped on further down the line jump off to touch in their oysters and contactless before getting back on the same train. People are absolutely rinsing SE and GTR in this way. The companies obviously know about it but clearly don't care.

Local rail travel in south east London has been pretty much free for anyone inclined to avoid paying since the 1990s. Whole generations have grown up without considering paying for a ticket.

Check somewhere like Bellingham on the down one day or night and see how many people touch out. You can't tell me all those punters not touching out have paper tickets!

The whole thing is a joke and the companies don't care.
 

MikeWh

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None of the above issues are new, but what is new is that the threat of an RPI sting or on-board ticket checks – the only deterrent that exists to the above ruses – are now meaningless. (Obviously there is a maximum fare of £8.60, but this is a) often less than the actual fare on many journeys, and b) contingent on an inspector being present, which is a <1% probability for many journeys). A sufficiently-motivated fare evader can easily acquire a (prepaid) Contactless payment card (with a minimal balance) in a false name, or virtual cards compatible with mobile Contactless payment systems.

It’s astonishing that Train Operating Companies have accepted this (given their concerns about the Oyster Extension Permit some years ago!), and yet here we are. In my opinion, this major limitation should have been a blocker to implementing Contactless, but instead we have a system that is ripe for a specific kind of abuse most appealing to hardened fare evaders which is only detectable in retrospect. In particular, I think it’s telling that almost 11k Contactless payment cards have failed Revenue Inspection 3 times in the preceding 20 month period.

TfL believe revenue protection arrangements for Contactless “work well”. I completely disagree – and I think the only reason the problem is not more endemic is because fare evaders are, for the most past, unaware that their Contactless card must be taken on trust. (I’m aware of the irony in this post therefore – but it’s well-publicised elsewhere including outside this site (and in public TfL documents [p.60+]), meaning I suspect it is a growing problem regardless!). I cannot think of any other type of fare evasion which can be conducted so regularly, with effectively zero risk to the person involved in the fraud.
£8.60 is more than the required fare for the vast majority of journeys, and enough for everything within zones 1-6 (apart from Heathrow). 11K cards in nearly two years is what percentage of the total number of cards used? According to the GTR press release this week from Radlett, TfL say that contactless cards/devices are used for 60% of all PAYG journeys in London. I'd say TfL are right that RP arrangements for contactless are working well.

If TfL believe that pre-paid contactless cards are a particular problem then there are things that they can do in conjunction with the banks to limit the effect.

My opinion is that (short of abandoning Contactless) TfL should be working hard toward a system of RIDs being able to check Contactless payment card touch-in/touch-out validation in real time. This is obviously not an easy task - but I see no reason why entry/exit gates can't upload the "last 6 digits" of card numbers (along with a timestamp) to a basic revenue protection database within minutes, which retains records in that database for 315 minutes, with the central system tracking the last successful update time for every station (noting the "oldest updated time" of that list). This data could be made available to RIDs for live interrogation, and downloaded to RIDs for use where the Internet is temporarily unavailable (with a "last download time" recorded on the RID). If a card is valid for travel but not on the RID as confirmed as being touched in recently, it could display a question mark along with the "oldest updated station time" (and the RID's "last download time", if offline). If the inspector is aware that the passenger has been on board earlier than both those times, they would be aware that a card was not valid; and if they had suspicions, they could check again once both times had been updated.
So one station with network difficulties could lead to the oldest update time being yesterday? The current system is actually good in my opinion because it takes the conflict away from the inspection. Any communication is done at the passengers convenience, rather than on a packed train with the potential victim feeling very embarrased.
I've said this before, but just stand at Brixton or Nunhead (both in zone 2) for a few trains and watch how many punters who jumped on further down the line jump off to touch in their oysters and contactless before getting back on the same train. People are absolutely rinsing SE and GTR in this way. The companies obviously know about it but clearly don't care.

Local rail travel in south east London has been pretty much free for anyone inclined to avoid paying since the 1990s. Whole generations have grown up without considering paying for a ticket.

Check somewhere like Bellingham on the down one day or night and see how many people touch out. You can't tell me all those punters not touching out have paper tickets!

The whole thing is a joke and the companies don't care.
Train companies have been known to react to posts like this, so I wouldn't put it past SE/TL to conduct a sting in the next few days. GA have certainly done it at Stratford in the past.

As for Bellingham, if it's the evening peak time then I would expect most people to have season tickets of some sort. There is no penalty for not touching out an Oyster with a valid travelcard, which is just as well as it would cause overcrowding issues at some stations if everyone had to use the one or two validators.
 

Starmill

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TfL believe revenue protection arrangements for Contactless “work well”. I completely disagree
If you could provide your detailed analysis below, including the relevant figures and your full calculations, we'd be very grateful? Explain in detail each area where your conclusions differ from theirs, and why yours is the more accurate.
 

Mojo

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instead we have a system that is ripe for a specific kind of abuse most appealing to hardened fare evaders which is only detectable in retrospect.
This point is incorrect.

Whilst it is not possible, on the spot, to detect whether a contactless card has been touched in, London Underground Revenue staff spend the majority of the time monitoring station gatelines, and thus can intercept people passing through gatelines in an incorrect manner and this is usually sufficient to mount a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act (or unlike on franchised National Rail Tocs, being present in a Compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket or smartcard, under the TfL Railway Byelaws a prosecution can be started).

It is interesting however how TfL have chosen to introduce a fairly low charge for failed revenue inspections, this is in contrast to say Metrolink in Manchester which recently launched pay as you go Contactless and has set a fare of £30, although equivalent fares on the Tram are slightly higher than in London.
 

Cdd89

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Some interesting points/responses!

London Underground Revenue staff spend the majority of the time monitoring station gatelines, and thus can intercept people passing through gatelines in an incorrect manner
I agree that where a gateline of barriers are in place, the system is fit for purpose. The problem is the large number of stations with no barriers, with the most problematic of these being those within Zone 1.

Obviously plain-clothes inspectors can also monitor Oyster/Contactless card readers (at stations without barriers), and ask to see the paper ticket/season ticket of anyone who walks past without touching in or out. But as mentioned above, some stations are awash with Travelcard holders or paper ticket holders who have no obligation to tap, and a 'Contactless fare evader' upon seeing a major revenue operation in progress beyond a Card Reader (either at the start or end of their journey) would simply touch their Contactless card on the reader.

So one station with network difficulties could lead to the oldest update time being yesterday? The current system is actually good in my opinion because it takes the conflict away from the inspection. Any communication is done at the passengers convenience, rather than on a packed train with the potential victim feeling very embarrassed

Indeed, quite often (under my suggested system) some station somewhere would not be updating in time, meaning that aspect of the check would not be effective. But it would be no worse than the current system, and fare evaders wouldn't know when the system is not in operation, bringing back the element of random chance.

As for the second part - I would argue that the risk of a) embarrassment or b) prosecution is the only thing that deters some fare evaders. Contactless takes away both options because of the anonymity it gives the evader; by the time a problem is resolved in the system the offender is long gone. (TfL clearly agree insofar as that they have a system for detecting this type of fraud on buses!)
If TfL believe that pre-paid contactless cards are a particular problem then there are things that they can do in conjunction with the banks to limit the effect.

I'd suggest that pre-paid cards are only one potential avenue for fraud and fare evaders evading the blacklist and maintaining anonymity. Other options include international cards, virtual cards, secondary cards, and stolen cards.

If you could provide your detailed analysis below, including the relevant figures and your full calculations, we'd be very grateful?

In a 20 month period, 147k Contactless cards inspected failed revenue inspection. I wish I had the total number of cards inspected to get an evasion percentage, but in any case, that is 241 detected fare evaders per day. Under the Oyster scheme, some percentage of those would have been issued with a penalty fare, deterred, prosecuted, etc. Instead, they notice that nothing immediate came from their inspection, and later they were charged a relatively modest sum of £8.60 which is offset by what their journey should have cost anyway. With fare evasion levels historically around 3% with Oyster, it is logical to assume that as people learn there is no 'threat' from an on-board RPI check, this would increase. This leads to 16% of those people being detected as repeat evaders, and 46% of those repeat this for a third time using the same card despite having spoken to TfL Customer Services about touching in (as is required). I would argue that the second and third figures may understate the incidence of hardened fare evasion, since knowledgable fare evaders would abandon the Contactless card after the first revenue inspection failure to prevent TfL from being able to build up a pattern of their evasion. Those who do not realise this and continue to use the same Contactless card after it has become marked Not Valid For Travel could be prosecuted by an RPI on the 4th occasion, but I don't think a system that only catches only the uninformed criminals is one we should aspire to.
 

yorkie

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..., that is 241 detected fare evaders per day. Under the Oyster scheme, some percentage of those would have been issued with a penalty fare, deterred, prosecuted, etc....
It sounds to me like this 241 figure is both a tiny percentage of the overall journeys made (and if you looked at other rail systems without contactless you would find the proportion to be greater) and is not actually "fare evaders"; by your own admission many of the 241 would be issued a Penalty Fare.

Anyone issued with a Penalty Fare is not being accused of having avoided their fare. It is a charge for making a mistake under certain circumstances.

Accepting contactless must be saving TfL £millions as well as making rail easier to use for millions of people.

If you have an alternative proposal, this would be best discussed in the Speculative Ideas section; feel free to create a thread.
 

Mikey C

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As for Bellingham, if it's the evening peak time then I would expect most people to have season tickets of some sort. There is no penalty for not touching out an Oyster with a valid travelcard, which is just as well as it would cause overcrowding issues at some stations if everyone had to use the one or two validators.

If you have a season ticket on your Oyster card, is it essential to touch in and out (other than if an inspector checks)?

I ask that as a few year ago I had a Zones 1-3 annual season ticket, and whereas I would have to go through gates at my home station and in central London I occasionally, when there was a queue for the readers (or the train was there) didn't touch in or out at Charlton (which is also zone 3) and was never penalised for it, I was never charged the maximum fare etc
 

transmanche

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If you have a season ticket on your Oyster card, is it essential to touch in and out (other than if an inspector checks)?
TfL do not penalise Travelcard holder who do not touch in or out within their zones - not even if an inspector chacks.

It can be argued that they could technically issue a Penalty Fare, as you haven't validated your Oyster card if you don't touch in. But TfL have never (AFAIK) tried to do this. Other operators have a different policy: e.g. Nexus (operators of the T&W Metro) requires season ticket holders to touch in and out, else they can be charged a maximum fare.
 

MikeWh

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It can be argued that they could technically issue a Penalty Fare, as you haven't validated your Oyster card if you don't touch in.
As long as your Oyster card is not in debt, a valid travelcard is authority to travel. You only absolutely have to touch in/out if you will be going beyond the zones covered by your travelcard and using your PAYG balance for the remainder.
 

Mojo

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I agree that where a gateline of barriers are in place, the system is fit for purpose. The problem is the large number of stations with no barriers, with the most problematic of these being those within Zone 1.
What Zone 1 stations have no barriers?
The only ones I can think of are Moorgate (which is only at the temporary entrance which will be remodelled when the works are done), Bank (via a lift), Waterloo (Waterloo & City line only), Tower Gateway DLR, and some of the platforms on the Mainline station at Euston and Paddington (the former only offering a couple of destinations within the validity of CPC acceptance or used only by long distance trains, the latter almost always used only by long distance trains).
 

Mojo

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In a 20 month period, 147k Contactless cards inspected failed revenue inspection. I wish I had the total number of cards inspected to get an evasion percentage, but in any case, that is 241 detected fare evaders per day. Under the Oyster scheme, some percentage of those would have been issued with a penalty fare, deterred, prosecuted, etc.
On the other hand however it could be argued that because revenue staff were not spending time writing Penalty fares or reports (even before we assume that Penalty fares/court costs ever get paid because addresses are genuine), they are able to check more customers and thus visibility of Inspectors is higher (putting people off) and a higher number of irregularities are dealt with.
 

Mikey C

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As long as your Oyster card is not in debt, a valid travelcard is authority to travel. You only absolutely have to touch in/out if you will be going beyond the zones covered by your travelcard and using your PAYG balance for the remainder.

Which is an incentive for someone travelling outside their zone to not bother touching out, as the only moment you are officially cheating the system is when you literally exit the station without touching the reader. And if there is an inspection at the exit station, you just make sure you tap out on that rare occasion.

In the reverse direction you would be charged if caught by an inspector of course, but in the morning rush hour how likely is this?
 

rebmcr

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Which is an incentive for someone travelling outside their zone to not bother touching out, as the only moment you are officially cheating the system is when you literally exit the station without touching the reader. And if there is an inspection at the exit station, you just make sure you tap out on that rare occasion.

In the reverse direction you would be charged if caught by an inspector of course, but in the morning rush hour how likely is this?

I know for a fact that a previous colleague did this with a Z1-2 whenever he frequently visited his parents in Z9.
 

MikeWh

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As for the second part - I would argue that the risk of a) embarrassment or b) prosecution is the only thing that deters some fare evaders. Contactless takes away both options because of the anonymity it gives the evader; by the time a problem is resolved in the system the offender is long gone.
Whilst I agree that risk of embarrassment may deter some fare evaders, it has absolutely no effect on people caught making innocent/honest mistakes, or even no mistake at all due to a system issue. I've witnessed people being caught out on trains a number of times and it always ends up with the inspector being involved in several minutes worth of discussion. Compare that to the number of other cards that could be checked in that time, potentially netting further maximum charges.
(TfL clearly agree insofar as that they have a system for detecting this type of fraud on buses!)
A bus is a single entity so it is possible to check whether each card has been used or not. If there was a way of doing similar on trains then they would, but foolproof technology doesn't exist.
I'd suggest that pre-paid cards are only one potential avenue for fraud and fare evaders evading the blacklist and maintaining anonymity. Other options include international cards, virtual cards, secondary cards, and stolen cards.
International cards, virtual cards and secondary cards are all just like normal contactless cards. Stolen cards are only an issue until the owner reports the loss. I know from experience that it took no longer than 30 minutes to blacklist my card which was still being used. [I'd lost one of a pair of cards but Barclaycard could only cancel them both. I couldn't touch out on the one I was using for travel that day.]
 

Cdd89

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On the other hand however it could be argued that because revenue staff were not spending time writing Penalty fares or reports (even before we assume that Penalty fares/court costs ever get paid because addresses are genuine), they are able to check more customers and thus visibility of Inspectors is higher (putting people off) and a higher number of irregularities are dealt with
This is a fair point, and I agree that (as mentioned above) the savings from implementing Contactless, and the deterrent of inspectors checking a lot of tickets, probably have a positive impact on overall revenue. But I don't think fare evasion is just a numbers game, as if it is played this way, TfL will slowly end up with a self-selecting group of hardened evaders who have determined that there is no realistic way of being caught, as per numerous posts on Reddit, and of course the post quoted above:
I know for a fact that a previous colleague did this with a Z1-2 whenever he frequently visited his parents in Z9.

(I am of the controversial view that Travelcards should always have deducted an entry charge [with a nil entry threshold] even if starting a journey within zones).

International cards, virtual cards and secondary cards are all just like normal contactless cards
Not sure I agree there. I assume TfL receive no more data than any other merchant receives in a contactless transaction. My card issuer supplies secondary cards very quickly and without question, and they have completely different account numbers (following the BIN) and any name I specify. I can see that TfL could block certain types of cards, but I can't immediately think what TfL can do to distinguish between a genuine primary cardholder and a phony secondary card that will go in the bin after the first failed revenue inspection.

A bus is a single entity so it is possible to check whether each card has been used or not. If there was a way of doing similar on trains then they would, but foolproof technology doesn't exist.
I agree foolproof technology doesn't exist (in that some people might slip through the net), but it's clearly possible to implement a system that can under certain circumstances assuredly prove that a card wasn't touched in. A revenue inspection is by nature a deterrent; it only has to be foolproof in that it doesn't falsely accuse people of having evaded a fare, it doesn't have to be foolproof in catching every evader.

Whilst I agree that risk of embarrassment may deter some fare evaders, it has absolutely no effect on people caught making innocent/honest mistakes
As this site likes to remind people :) penalty fares are for innocent mistakes. The more important avenue and deterrent is the ability to prosecute, and that is surely the purpose of a Revenue Inspector, who can assess the passenger's story and determine whether it is more likely to be an honest mistake or an occurrence of intentional evasion. Contactless means there is no 'credibility check' on the passenger as they are long gone by the time the day's touches are resolved and a revenue inspection failure is realised.

What Zone 1 stations have no barriers?
There don't need to be many, and many of the worst offenders are major interchanges. E&C NR is my local station and has no barriers. London Bridge almost always has the southeastern barriers open and unmonitored. Blackfriars NR often has open barriers. (I hate open barriers because, unlike standalone card readers, the very quiet beeps (and confusion of beeps from surrounding gates) and small displays mean you have to concentrate to be 100% sure you actually touched in/out!). There are an abundance of stations in Zone 2 or beyond with either no barriers, or with platform validators, where customers can reduce the length of their journey. The key difference with barriers, vs card readers, is that they are a) directional and b) monitored; card readers on the other hand have no idea whether a tapped Contactless card is entering or exiting.
 

yorkie

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Which is an incentive for someone travelling outside their zone to not bother touching out, as the only moment you are officially cheating the system is when you literally exit the station without touching the reader.
Actually, the moment you exit your zones without having tapped in, you are liable for a Penalty Fare (if deemed to be a mistake) or prosecution (e.g. if the journey history suggests this may have happened before)

.... group of hardened evaders who have determined that there is no realistic way of being caught..
If they make the same journeys regularly then they will be caught.

(I am of the controversial view that Travelcards should always have deducted an entry charge [with a nil entry threshold] even if starting a journey within zones).
Sorry but this is just not a sensible or proportionate suggestion; this really makes me question anything that you say, if this really is your view.

As this site likes to remind people..
The 'site' does no such thing; the site is merely a medium. But I reject the suggestion that people who obtain multiple cards and commit fraud using contactless could never be prosecuted; on the contrary if a commuter did this the evidence would be extremely convincing when combined with CCTV evidence.

If you have a viable alternative set of proposals, feel free to post your proposals in detail in a new thread.
 

MikeWh

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Not sure I agree there. I assume TfL receive no more data than any other merchant receives in a contactless transaction. My card issuer supplies secondary cards very quickly and without question, and they have completely different account numbers (following the BIN) and any name I specify. I can see that TfL could block certain types of cards, but I can't immediately think what TfL can do to distinguish between a genuine primary cardholder and a phony secondary card that will go in the bin after the first failed revenue inspection.
Well unless things have changed dramatically very recently I think you'll find that you as the primrary cardholder will still be liable for the revenue inspection charge, so it's not exactly getting away with it.

I agree foolproof technology doesn't exist (in that some people might slip through the net), but it's clearly possible to implement a system that can under certain circumstances assuredly prove that a card wasn't touched in. A revenue inspection is by nature a deterrent; it only has to be foolproof in that it doesn't falsely accuse people of having evaded a fare, it doesn't have to be foolproof in catching every evader.
You can only prove that a card hasn't been touched in if you can be absolutely certain that every reader at every station is reliably transmitting all it's touches within a short space of time. If I touch in at Crayford just as the train comes to a halt it is rare for the app to show my journey started before Sidcup, and has been known to be as late as Hither Green. That doesn't count the times that neither app nor website can retrieve information from the database. Therefore current technology will falsely accuse people of having evaded a fare.
 

Cdd89

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the moment you exit your zones without having tapped in, you are liable
Mikey C’s post (and my response) related to the example where a travelcard holder does touch in, and then fails to touch out. This means that the fare evasion is only ‘crystallised’ in the instant that the person fails to touch out, which is very hard to catch in practice. (By contrast, with a paper travelcard, a person exceeding their zones is unambiguously fare evading from the moment they pass their allowed zone!). Hence the below:

Sorry but this is just not a sensible or proportionate suggestion; this really makes me question anything that you say, if this really is your view.
I did guess it would be controversial :) - but it seems sensible and proportional to me. It would obviously need to be combined with a requirement to touch in and out, but I don’t think that is too onerous. The £0.00 entry threshold would mean travelcard holders wouldn’t need funds on their travelcard, it just ensures it would have a negative balance in the event of failing to touch in or out. Very happy to change my view if given a rationale on why this is disproportionate, though!
 

Cdd89

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Therefore current technology will falsely accuse people of having evaded a fare.
I agree (the key words there being current technology!). A better system should have been designed. I outlined a suggested system in the last paragraph of my first post, but I’ll create a separate thread for it when I have time to give more details (so it can be mercilessly picked apart :p)

I think you'll find that you as the primrary cardholder will still be liable for the revenue inspection charge, so it's not exactly getting away with it.
They would not get away without paying the £8.60 max fare, but I don’t think that’s a deterrent anyway since it is only 3.5x a Zone 1-2 fare, 1.6x a peak 1-6 fare, etc. For the financial aspect of revenue inspection charges to have deterrent effect in and of themselves, they would need to equal the fare concerned divided by the percentage chance of being inspected. (I know someone who never pays for parking outside London because they are convinced that they come out ahead by paying the fines, not that I approve; but I digress!). My point is that since we can never make the maths of revenue inspection charges add up to deter evasion, it is critical to leverage other methods like prevention (barriers) and non-financial penalties (prosecution), and that is what is not happening.
 

[.n]

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I will have to check this,but I am fairly certain that for one of my contactless cards, TFL charge 10p immediately on first touch in, as the app tells me very quickly that is what as happen (data signal of some sort permitting). This figure does get modified later on but sometimes the next day,so I do have a few 10p TFL transactions on my statement.

if this is the case, then surely RPIs can query the back office in the same way (some kind of data signal permitting)?

Yep, looked through my statement

22/8 10p charge to TFL
23/8 £4.70 charge to TFL
 

MikeWh

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10p is an authorisation request that shouldn't remain on your account. It should drop off after not being collected for 5 working days.
 

yorkie

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... a requirement to touch in and out, but I don’t think that is too onerous. ...
What if you have a boundary bzone extension ticket? It would be very onerous then.

Your ideas do not consider reasonable requirements, instead focusing on problems that don't really exist.
 

[.n]

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10p is an authorisation request that shouldn't remain on your account. It should drop off after not being collected for 5 working days.

I quite often get the 10p as a separate charge to the £4.70
Other occasions I have had 10p modified to £4.80 and in these cases my app informs me
 

MikeWh

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I quite often get the 10p as a separate charge to the £4.70
Other occasions I have had 10p modified to £4.80 and in these cases my app informs me
Interesting. I see 10p authorisations fairly regularly, but they never get through as a daily charge.
 

simple simon

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There is a way to stop this - I think its called Be here Now or something like that.

Anyway, what the solution does is track your travel - end to end - and automatically charge you accordingly. You will not need to touch-in or out, nor use pink 'route validator' card readers for cheaper fares.

I read somewhere a few days ago than an Italian city is poised to trial this, using smart phone apps and remote sensor readers.
 

bionic

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8 Nov 2013
Messages
883
There is a way to stop this - I think its called Be here Now or something like that.

Anyway, what the solution does is track your travel - end to end - and automatically charge you accordingly. You will not need to touch-in or out, nor use pink 'route validator' card readers for cheaper fares.

I read somewhere a few days ago than an Italian city is poised to trial this, using smart phone apps and remote sensor readers.

Thats interesting. Presumably they will still need barriers though or the simple solution for fare evaders would be to switch their phone off or leave it at home.
 

Starmill

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I dislike doing this, but considering all of their contributions in this thread, I'd really have to consider the motives of the OP for coming up with all of this. They don't appear to have any specific information as to what the actual problem is beyond what they doubtless think are some clever Freedom of Information requests they've done.

Needless to say I think it's apparent that nobody reading has been convinced that there's some kind of massive revenue protection issue that stems from Contactless acceptence; the benefits, by contrast, are significant, clearly explained, and much-discussed.

The OP doesn't seem to be driven by the enhancement of passenger rights, a desire to improve the rail service in their area, to get passengers a better deal in future or even to promote what they see as some sense of justice in society. Nearly all contributors to this forum, including railway staff, passengers, spectators and commentators, journalists and government insiders are motivated by at least one of these factors.

Instead it seems what they've tried to do is give the impression that they alone know much better than TfL and the train operators, who've been running these systems for years, off the back of a handful of figures and some pretty weak analysis. Perhaps their main motivation is to fabricate a problem which they can then propose solutions to, in order to make other people think they're an 'expert'? Crucially, if there really is such a lare problem with revenue protection here, why is the OP the only person who can see what it is?

To conclude, has the OP considered that achievement of a 100% perfect rate of correct payment for every journey is almost certainly impossible on a busy rail network? Eliminating the final few percentage points worth of fare evasion will by definition cost TfL and train operators more than it will bring in. Does the OP take the view that quasi-unlimited resources should be dedicated to revenue protection? Why do they continue to propose 'new technologies' as an answer to every objection raised to their theory, when these obviously aren't in place and might not even exist as yet, without offering any further details (in an appropriate thread)? And how does the OP propose that 'better' revenue protection (as they see it) should be paid for?
 
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transmanche

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27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
There is a way to stop this - I think its called Be here Now or something like that.

Anyway, what the solution does is track your travel - end to end - and automatically charge you accordingly. You will not need to touch-in or out, nor use pink 'route validator' card readers for cheaper fares.

I read somewhere a few days ago than an Italian city is poised to trial this, using smart phone apps and remote sensor readers.
Go-Ahead have been running trials of a similar system using (Apple) iBeacons to track when a passenger boards or alights.
 

Cdd89

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1,453
I'm very slightly offended at that characterisation, Starmill - I'm just someone with an interest in the Oyster system who was progressively more surprised at what I perceived as issues with Contactless acceptance!

Also, I wouldn't say I'm the "only one" to have seen this, as you imply: I found quite a few posts on Reddit with people suggesting exactly this loophole (linked above). It's true that a 0% evasion rate is unattainable, but what concerned me about this specific method is that while other methods involve the evader taking a personal risk throughout their journey that they won't get caught, Contactless can only identify evasion in retrospect.

As Contactless expands increasingly great distances, and fares involved get larger, I personally think these limitations will become more relevant - not just in relation to things like maximum fares, but also how to combat fare evasion and other "dumb-belling" opportunities when in-journey checks have no efficacy.

I take the rest of your comments on board, and hope you'll agree I'm not a "bad-faith" poster here. I'm not sure a new thread on this topic would be particularly well received, but if you think I'm wrong, I'm happy to make one and share some thoughts about how I would improve things!
 
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