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Super Off-Peak Stations With No Super Off-Peak Travelcard

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Capvermell

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Can anyone here please try and explain to me on what possible insane basis of total immorality or illogic Southern Railway refuses to offer Super Off-Peak Travelcards and only offers more expensive Off-Peak Travelcards (who's only advantage is that they can be used half an hour earlier in the morning and don't have a late afternoon/early evening travel blackout period) from the first few stations outside London where Super Off-Peak day single and return fares are still available?

So taking my local line the last station travelling to London Victoria from which a Super Off-Peak ordinary Single or Return fare (rather than only a more expensive Off Peak return fare) is available is Holmwood (about 27 miles from Victoria one stop south of Dorking) but the first station going out of London from which a cheaper Super Off-Peak rather than an Off-Peak Travelcard is available is Horsham (around 9 miles south of Holmwood)

This has the crazy consequence that the cheapest Travelcard ticket available from Warnham station is the Off-Peak Travelcard costing £25.00 but the cheapest Travelcard available from Horsham station some four miles further south of Warnham and further away from London Victoria is the Super Off-Peak Travelcard costing only £21.80.

I understand the basic principle that Southern only offers Super Off-Peak fares with less favourable time restrictions at stations somewhat further out of London than stations like Leatherhead and Dorking (as this is designed to make the cost of the journey affordable for occasional leisure travellers to London from further out) but I don't understand any possible logic that explains why at the first three stations moving out of London on my line where Super Off-Peak return tickets are made available that there is no counterpart Super Off-Peak Travelcard product (presumably this situation is also replicated at all other Southern Rail stations between approximately 25 miles and 35 miles away from a Central London terminus?).

The upshot of this crazy situation is that unless you have a Network card or other railcard that can discount the cost of the Off-Peak Travelcard by one third that it is almost never worth buying an Off Peak Travel card and instead you are better off to only buy a Super Off-Peak return ticket and then use either Oyster or a Contactless credit card to cover bus and tube journeys in Central London.

I have tried posing this question to senior level with Southern before (both by email and going to Meet The Managers sessions) but as with Southern not offering any multi day carnet tickets on their Key Smartcard all one gets is a smug grin and a shrug of the shoulders. Yet it makes no sense as a marketing proposition and simply isn't logical or fair in any way. So does anyone have any thoughts on why Southern do this and why they won't offer a Super Off-Peak Travelcard from all stations where Super Off-Peak single and return tickets are also available???

Taking another shade of the same strange illogic in Southern's fare systems when travelling from Holmwood or Ockley stations the cheapest day return ticket (the Super Off Peak ticket) at £9.80 is only valid to London Victoria only and not to any other London terminus and only the £14.60 Off-Peak return is valid to Thameslink line Central London stations. But travelling from Horley station, almost exactly the same distance out of London as Ockley station, but on the parallel Gatwick line, the £9.80 Super Off Peak ticket does actually allow you to terminate your journey at any of the Thameslink stations such as Blackfriars, City Thameslink and St Pancras Thameslink but not at say London Liverpool Street where an even more expensive £17.00 Off-Peak ticket is required (probably because the journey also requires travelling on the Underground). Presumably this comes out of the fact that the Thameslink line stations are not operated by Southern and so the operators of those stations choose to price journeys to their London terminus stations on their trains from stations also served by Southern at the same cost as a journey terminating at London Victoria?

But these are all further indications that the fares system does not seem at all sane or logical in terms of how it operates. The whole situation only seems to exist because Southern's predecessors (either British Rail or Connex or was it South West Trains as it happened even before I moved here in 1996) discontinued the once a day direct services from Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham to London Bridge some years ago. But because Horley also has direct services to London Victoria as well as London Bridge (latter not operated by Southern but by Thameslink) someone has taken a decision that both termini should enjoy access to the Super Off Peak ticket price.

Its therefore probably no wonder that Southern has reduced the number of Meet The Managers sessions it holds, absolutely refuses to have any emailing list to email customers to remind them of these sessions happening, holds most of them in the early morning when peak hour fares apply and only gives dates of any out of London Meet The Manager occasional evening sessions at the last possible minute while never also providing any way to be auto emailed about them taking place. There is also now no available email address for the CEO of Southern on the www.ceoemail.com but until not long ago there used to be such an address for Charles Horton......
 
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MarlowDonkey

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Southern Railway refuses to offer Super Off-Peak Travelcards and only offers more expensive Off-Peak Travelcards (who's only advantage is that they can be used half an hour earlier in the morning and don't have a late afternoon/early evening travel blackout period) from the first few stations outside London where Super Off-Peak day single and return fares are still available?

Is there such a ticket as a Super Off Peak Travelcard? Travelcards are not restricted in the evening peak in Zones 1 to 6 and that includes National Rail services.

For those of us outside London who make the occasional day trip, it's often a toss up between a "London terminals" ticket plus Oyster/contactless and a Travelcard, the solution depending on how much Zone 1-6 travel is intended and when, given that Oyster prices increase in the evening peak.
 

yorkie

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Can you please post a concise summary of your question, in one or two sentences, and then we may be able to answer.

Someone has brought this thread to my attention but I don't have time to read the full opening post.
 

yorkie

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Is there such a ticket as a Super Off Peak Travelcard? Travelcards are not restricted in the evening peak in Zones 1 to 6 and that includes National Rail services.

For those of us outside London who make the occasional day trip, it's often a toss up between a "London terminals" ticket plus Oyster/contactless and a Travelcard, the solution depending on how much Zone 1-6 travel is intended and when, given that Oyster prices increase in the evening peak.
Super Off Peak Travelcarda are available from selected out boundary origins ; their validity within the Zones is exactly the same as an in boundary Off Peak Day Travelcard (ODT).

It is entitlely up to the fare setter whether they make these available or not.
 

Capvermell

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Is there such a ticket as a Super Off Peak Travelcard? Travelcards are not restricted in the evening peak in Zones 1 to 6 and that includes National Rail services.

Contactless and Oyster single fares on London Underground are actually charged at Peak rate during the evening peak travelling between 4pm and 7pm, although its the time you start the journey and not when you finish your journey that dictates whether you are charged peak hour fare or not but there are also maximum journey times allowed depending on which zone you enter and exit the system in. See https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares

Although there is actually a Peak Hour Travelcard on TfL and Southern (that relates to pre 9.30am travel) there is no Super Off Peak Tfl Travelcard and that instead relates only to travel with Southern on their trains, who don't allow travel on Super Off Peak tickets in the morning peak arriving at London Victoria before 10.30am and in the evening peak departing London Victoria or other qualifying London Termini between 4.15pm and 7.15pm That has been the rule for years and years for Super Off Peak tickets but stupidly Southern's current web page at https://www.southernrailway.com/tickets/ticket-types-explained/off-peak doesn't properly cover the time restriction differences and offers a completely unhelpful link to the National Rail website that also doesn't clarify the point (although they do clearly show separate Off Peak and Super Off Peak return ticket prices on their website for these stations where Super Off Peak Travelcards are perversely not available). However I have just contacted their call centre run by Teleperformance in Bristol who assure me that the 4.15pm to 7.15pm restriction travelling out of London on Super Off Peak tickets is very much still in place and they will now be seeking to have this omission rectified on their website following my feedback (although in reality it may take an email to the current CEO of Govia Thameslink to achieve this massive feat of accurate information supply re ticket terms and conditions).

For those of us outside London who make the occasional day trip, it's often a toss up between a "London terminals" ticket plus Oyster/contactless and a Travelcard, the solution depending on how much Zone 1-6 travel is intended and when, given that Oyster prices increase in the evening peak.

But the point I'm making is that for stations between Holmwood and Warnham on the Mole Valley line via Leatherhead and Dorking to Horsham (which Southern bizarrely sometimes claims is part of the South London Metro) the position is much more extreme because of the non existence of a Super Off Peak Travelcard and it generally is never worth buying one from Holmwood station unless you also happen to have a Network Card to knock the price down from £19.50 to £13.00 (weekdays) or £12.85 on a Saturday (when the Network card Off Peak Travelcard fare is not subject to the £13 minimum fare cap).
 

Capvermell

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Can you please post a concise summary of your question, in one or two sentences, and then we may be able to answer.

Someone has brought this thread to my attention but I don't have time to read the full opening post.

The fare rules and the situation are complicated and that's why the post has to be lengthy to describe it fully.

I know short attention span is an ever growing modern disease but strangely some people do seem to still manage to spend a lot of time reading broad sheet newspapers and long novels. But may be these aren't the same people who need every point in life to be explained to them in only a one line email?

Although I suspect its because Southern's senior management can only think in terms of one line emails that explains why they don't seem to get it as to why their "The Key" ITSO Smartcard product is a total waste of time as it doesn't cover all possible fare types or connections with other train operators or offer multi day carnet products as numerous other transport providers using ITSO Key cards to the north of London seem to manage to do perfectly well (although for some odd reason my Southern Vectis Isle of Wight bus ITSO Key card has to be a different physical card from one that would work on Southern). Also all the smart card reader points Southern have installed at their unmanned stations could be made to support contactless debit and credit cards but once again they perversely can't be bothered to do this and leave us with their technologically orphaned and totally useless Key card technology.
 

Capvermell

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Super Off Peak Travelcarda are available from selected out boundary origins ; their validity within the Zones is exactly the same as an in boundary Off Peak Day Travelcard (ODT)

Yes but their validity when you hop on to a Southern train travelling beyond Travelcard Zones 1 to 6 then isn't the same at all as Super Off Peak Southern Travelcard tickets are not valid on Southern trains departing London Termini between 4.15pm and 7.15pm (travelling beyond Travelcard Zones 1 to 6) whereas Off Peak Travelcard Tickets are valid on all returns for the rest of the day and their only restriction is on any travel prior to 9.30am in the morning..............

So in the increasingly unlikely event that anyone checks your ticket travelling out of London between 4.15pm and 7.15pm you may be made to pay an Excess Fare or charged a Penalty Fare for not having a valid ticket once your train has transported you beyond the Zone 6 boundary. Or does that rule only apply to Super Off Peak return tickets and not to Super Off Peak Travelcards??????
 

JonathanH

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This has the crazy consequence that the cheapest Travelcard ticket available from Warnham station is the Off-Peak Travelcard costing £25.00 but the cheapest Travelcard available from Horsham station some four miles further south of Warnham and further away from London Victoria is the Super Off-Peak Travelcard costing only £21.80.

So buy your desired ticket from Horsham and travel from Warnham. Apart from distorting records of use at the two stations, no one will be concerned at all.

Similarly, Redhill doesn't have a weekend super off peak day travelcard to London so it is cheaper to buy one from Gatwick Airport (Thameslink only) and start short.

It is just the pricing managers view on what the market will support and why anyone who sets fares would appear really excited by replacing paper tickets with other things (especially pay as you go) that give them more control over usage?
 

JonathanH

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Also all the smart card reader points Southern have installed at their unmanned stations could be made to support contactless debit and credit cards but once again they perversely can't be bothered to do this and leave us with their technologically orphaned and totally useless Key card technology.

Yes, and your super off-peak travel to and from London would be materially greater under the Contactless fare structure.
 

Capvermell

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Yes, and your super off-peak travel to and from London would be materially greater under the Contactless fare structure.

Do you mean I would make more journeys if Southern actually bothered updating their back end software to support contactless smartcard payments at their The Key card readers (the actual card readers are quite clearly already capable of supporting contactless credit and debit cards and already do so at the odd non zonal station such as Gatwick Airport) as I actually think that's extremely unlikely unless Southern also provide the missing trains from Dorking to Horsham out of London Victoria after 5.30pm on a Saturday and all day long on Sunday. Or do you mean that enabling smartcard credit and debit card payments would increase my charged cost per journey due to the costs of providing the additional backend IT infrastructure?

As the train service on this line is so pitifully and dismally slow despite all the money wasted on upgrading its power supply to modern standards and the modern up to 10 carriage Electrostar trains used (27 miles and numerous stops take an 1 hour and 5 minutes minimum to Holmwood and an 1 hour 9 minutes plus to Ockley, which I no longer use since the introduction of a £3 per day parking charge by Southern while I can still park free at Holmwood as Southern doesn't control that road) and due to a total lack of imagination in train planning on the line (eg the once an hour service south of Dorking could run fast from Clapham Junction to Leatherhead with appropriate path planning) and my journey back in the late evening is far faster in total by car (say 50 minutes from the West End vs 1 hour 30 minutes plus by public transport, especially when having to allow sufficient connection margin for the last train from Victoria) I still prefer to drive in to Central London on a Sunday so long as there is no congestion charge or parking charges in most of Central London on those days.
 

JonathanH

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Do you mean I would make more journeys if Southern actually bothered updating their back end software to support contactless smartcard payments at their The Key card readers

No I mean that the off peak fare cap would be set at a higher amount than the current off peak day travelcard in the same way that it exceeds the cost of an off peak day travelcard at Redhill.
 

Capvermell

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So buy your desired ticket from Horsham and travel from Warnham. Apart from distorting records of use at the two stations, no one will be concerned at all.

Unfortunately this doesn't work from Holmwood or Ockley (but only from further down the line and much less used Warnham) where the Horsham Super Off Peak Travelcard still costs more than their own Off Peak Travelcard. So the only workaround is to use a Network Card (if you have one already) to knock down the Off Peak Travelcard price to the £13 minimum fare, which makes it at least £1 or so cheaper than an Off Peak return ticket and covers you for more than two tube journeys in the day.

Similarly, Redhill doesn't have a weekend super off peak day travelcard to London so it is cheaper to buy one from Gatwick Airport (Thameslink only) and start short.

Something tells me that so long as they don't have a zonal structure outside London they will eventually use ever increasing barrier control to prevent you starting your journey short wherever they can and make it more difficult to get tickets out of the machines starting from other stations. For instance its cheaper to buy a single Super Off Peak Return from Ockley to Victoria than to buy a single fare from Victoria to Ockley if you are only making that one way journey that day.

It is just the pricing managers view on what the market will support and why anyone who sets fares would appear really excited by replacing paper tickets with other things (especially pay as you go) that give them more control over usage?

Well obviously more contactless excites them as then station use can be tracked more easily and accurately even at low use level stations with no ticket barriers plus contactless is also cheaper than paper tickets in the long run once investment in the initial extra IT infrastructure required is defrayed. The post readers are cheap but the full scale ticket machines that also take cash notes (and so may be periodically robbed at remote locations) are clearly very expensive indeed.
 

Capvermell

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No I mean that the off peak fare cap would be set at a higher amount than the current off peak day travelcard in the same way that it exceeds the cost of an off peak day travelcard at Redhill.

And why would that be the case when the cost of controlling the ticketing ought to be less than with physical ticket? Also what about two single contactless journeys in to and out of London? Are you saying they are also going to be more expensive than a one day Travelcard too.

I already drive to somewhere I can park free within walking distance of Southfields tube if I have to go to London in the morning peak hour because Southern's peak fares from out here are so ludicrously expensive.
 

JonathanH

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Also what about two single contactless journeys in to and out of London? Are you saying they are also going to be more expensive than a one day Travelcard too.

Obviously not but they might be more expensive than the current super off peak day return.

Compare Redhill to London Terminals

Off-peak Contactless single £6.30

Super off peak day return £9.80
Off peak day return £12.50

And even worse

Redhill to Sutton

Off peak Contactless single £7.00

Off peak day return £9.10 (not Clapham Junction)
Off peak day return £10.00 (not London)
 
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Capvermell

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Obviously not but they might be more expensive than the current super off peak day return.

Compare Redhill to London Terminals

Off-peak Contactless single £6.30

Super off peak day return £9.80
Off peak day return £12.50

And even worse

Redhill to Sutton

Off peak Contactless single £7.00

Off peak day return £9.10 (not Clapham Junction)
Off peak day return £10.00 (not London)

Well this is because of the bizarre and ludicrous attitude that Southern have to The Key that its some kind of deluxe Apple Pay product for Technophiles rather than a cheaper and easier replacement for paper tickets.

Other rail companies operating out of London (certainly whoever operates to Luton Airport Parkway) have used contactless to sell multi day carnet bundles valid at peak times that make the cost of travelling equivalent to season ticket levels times 3/5 for part time workers.

Southern's approach to pricing Key or contactless (credit/debit card) fares is appalling and abusive and it is high time their disgustingly abusive attitude towards their paying customers was dealt with by stripping GoVia Thameslink of the franchise when it next comes up for renewal.
 

Capvermell

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One would could almost be tempted to think that Super Off Peak Travelcards are not made available to stations nearer London because the non validity of Super Off Peak Travelcards used regularly (which is more likely where someone lives rather nearer to London) on train departures from Southern Central London Termini between 4.15pm and 7.15pm is in effect unenforceable since the Travelcard is still valid to the Zone 6 boundary and in many cases (except where the train say runs fast to somewhere beyond the Zone 6 boundary) nobody is going to be able to prove whether you joined the train at a Southern Central London Termini between 4.15pm and 7.15pm or somewhere further down the line (where the peak hour time restriction will not apply).

So the restriction on Super Off Peak Travelcards not being sold nearer to London looks like it is designed to stop those working unusual shift hours later in the day in London on a regular basis from benefiting from permanent low cost and heavily discounted fares?
 

JonathanH

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I'm not sure I understand your point - GTR operate Southern as well as trains to Luton Airport Parkway.

There are some different approaches to fares north of London - eg Carnets to those south of London but don't forget that GTR operate a management contract and it is largely up to the DfT to determine fares structures. There are obviously different approaches in London set by TfL and agreed with RDG.

In theory the Key offers the opportunity to implement different approaches to charging for travel - ie part time season tickets - but if you lose revenue in one place you have to make it up in another.

Just because GTR / DfT have adopted certain principles in the current management contract doesn't mean that the same organisation would do the same in a future franchise or that another operator might not perpetuate the current policies. It may be out of their hands anyway as the DfT have already consulted on extension of Pay as you go ticketing in the South East around London.

As far as Contactless cards go, there can only be one system - that implemented by Transport for London - unless you are going to install additional readers at stations.
 

Capvermell

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There are some different approaches to fares north of London - eg Carnets to those south of London but don't forget that GTR operate a management contract and it is largely up to the DfT to determine fares structures.

Well there jolly well shouldn't be any such differences when the services are now operated by the same rail operator (in the past before Govia Thameslink they weren't the same, which is probably actually why the approaches were so different) in to the same capital city as it blatantly and unfair and inequitable and the DfT ought to be working to eliminate this or preferably get out of the game in favour of a more proactive and competent rail franchising regulator.

In theory the Key offers the opportunity to implement different approaches to charging for travel - ie part time season tickets - but if you lose revenue in one place you have to make it up in another.

Often providing more competitive and value for money encourages people to travel more but as the Dft and TfL have neglected investment in London's roads for 40 years they basically have people over a barrel in London as they have to travel by rail in the rush hour.

Just because GTR / DfT have adopted certain principles in the current management contract doesn't mean that the same organisation would do the same in a future franchise or that another operator might not perpetuate the current policies. It may be out of their hands anyway as the DfT have already consulted on extension of Pay as you go ticketing in the South East around London.

Presumably that just means more contactless payments instead of PIN and cash based payments but there is no reason why different types of multi day ticket bundles such as carnets can't be loaded on those contactless or smartphone based ticketing mechanisms (but smartphones are always going to be a problem due to the rapid battery discharge issue).

As far as Contactless cards go, there can only be one system - that implemented by Transport for London - unless you are going to install additional readers at stations.

What complete and utter tosh. There are millions of contactless readers all over the UK and all over the western world in retail outlets none of which are operated by TfL. And systems such as the Key and their card readers use precisely the same RFID chipped cards and card readers as those used by TfL to read either Oyster cards or Contactless credit cards (which is why the readers at the gates and on the ticket machines didn't have to be replaced when contactless credit and debit card payment came in.)

Contactless payment is not a system developed by TfL but one developed by Visa and Mastercard principally and which secondary payment system operators like Amex have then tried to join on to in a rather incompetent, half hearted and desultory kind of way.
 

JonathanH

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If you touch in on the card reader at Gatwick Airport and out at Redhill with an Oyster card or Contactless Credit Card you will be charged based on the peak / off-peak single fare structure of pricing developed first by TfL for their services.

If you do the same thing with a Key card set up for PAYG you will be charged on the peak / off-peak single (and return) fare structure in place for 'paper' tickets.

The readers are 'dumb' and so are Contactless credit cards - you can't press a button to choose one fare structure over another. So, yes, different fare structures with different cards but travelling using a Contactless credit card is on the 'TfL structure'.
 

Capvermell

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The readers are 'dumb' and so are Contactless credit cards - you can't press a button to choose one fare structure over another. So, yes, different fare structures with different cards but travelling using a Contactless credit card is on the 'TfL structure'.

All that needs to happen is for a web interface to be developed that allows customers to set their default preferences for what kind of tickets they normally want and/or to give customers the right to amend the type of ticket the journey is charged against for up to a set period (end of that day or end of the following day) after the journey is made. This kind of thing already happens at places like the Dartford crossing on the M25. Rail journeys with contactless cards are not normally charged back to the card operator in real time but instead are batched up and processed overnight each day so it ought to be possible to allow customers to choose ticket type after the event on their smartphone or whatever else.

Its clearly ludicrous for TfL and Rail Delivery Group to both be developing their own different systems and interfaces on behalf of the tube and the UK rail companies and they ought to have one set of pooled card reading infrastructure for the whole UK rail and bus network.
 

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As far as Contactless cards go, there can only be one system - that implemented by Transport for London - unless you are going to install additional readers at stations.

What complete and utter tosh. There are millions of contactless readers all over the UK and all over the western world in retail outlets none of which are operated by TfL. And systems such as the Key and their card readers use precisely the same RFID chipped cards and card readers as those used by TfL to read either Oyster cards or Contactless credit cards (which is why the readers at the gates and on the ticket machines didn't have to be replaced when contactless credit and debit card payment came in.)

Contactless payment is not a system developed by TfL but one developed by Visa and Mastercard principally and which secondary payment system operators like Amex have then tried to join on to in a rather incompetent, half hearted and desultory kind of way.
I'm sorry, but what you have said is actually complete and utter tosh. There are two systems of contactless transactions: retail and transit. The retail system was of course developed by Visa and Mastercard, and that is the system used in millions of shops around the world. The transit system ABSOLUTELY WAS DEVELOPED BY TfL in co-operation with the card issuers. They are rightly proud of the result.
If you touch in on the card reader at Gatwick Airport and out at Redhill with an Oyster card or Contactless Credit Card you will be charged based on the peak / off-peak single fare structure of pricing developed first by TfL for their services.

If you do the same thing with a Key card set up for PAYG you will be charged on the peak / off-peak single (and return) fare structure in place for 'paper' tickets.

The readers are 'dumb' and so are Contactless credit cards - you can't press a button to choose one fare structure over another. So, yes, different fare structures with different cards but travelling using a Contactless credit card is on the 'TfL structure'.
Absolutely spot on. The readers are not allowed to write anything to the contactless card (for obvious reasons), so all they can do is pass the fact that a card with this tokenised number touched me at this time onto a central system.
All that needs to happen is for a web interface to be developed that allows customers to set their default preferences for what kind of tickets they normally want and/or to give customers the right to amend the type of ticket the journey is charged against for up to a set period (end of that day or end of the following day) after the journey is made. This kind of thing already happens at places like the Dartford crossing on the M25. Rail journeys with contactless cards are not normally charged back to the card operator in real time but instead are batched up and processed overnight each day so it ought to be possible to allow customers to choose ticket type after the event on their smartphone or whatever else.
You make it sound so simple. The reason why journeys can't be charged back in real time is that until all the touches are received it's not possible to know what to charge. Many journeys involve more than two touches, and then there's the issue of capping.
Its clearly ludicrous for TfL and Rail Delivery Group to both be developing their own different systems and interfaces on behalf of the tube and the UK rail companies and they ought to have one set of pooled card reading infrastructure for the whole UK rail and bus network.
You can blame the government for this. They took so long specifying the ITSO system that TfL had to introduce their own technology. Then TfL took the lead in designing the contactless transit mode system. Unless different systems had different readers then the touches have to go to one central system. Can you really see customers being able to use the right reader in the rush hour crush at busy stations?
 

Capvermell

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You can blame the government for this. They took so long specifying the ITSO system that TfL had to introduce their own technology. Then TfL took the lead in designing the contactless transit mode system. Unless different systems had different readers then the touches have to go to one central system. Can you really see customers being able to use the right reader in the rush hour crush at busy stations?

So as you seem very informed on the subject can you explain why the ITSO Key cards have more than one flavour and are not all interoperable and capable of being loaded with any rail or bus operator's ticketing details? And are Oyster cards (I don't have one any more as I now use contactless credit cards on TfL) ITSO cards or not?

For instance Southern has one ITSO Key card that then can't be used when travelling with Southern Vectis (an Isle of Wight bus company) and a number of other south coast transport operators (listed on the back of the Southern Vectis card and none of which are Southern as I have one of these cards as it gives me much cheaper 5 day pass bundles on buses on the Isle of Wight) who have their own different non compatible ITSO Key card (taking up another card space in the limited number of spaces in your wallet).

Southern Vectis also recently finally brought in contactless credit and debit card payment using the same readers on their buses as for The Key card but it isn't possible to load their multi day bundles on to a contactless credit/debit card and contactless credit/debit cards are only charged their prohibitively expensive individual journey fares (eg £3.50 for one three mile bus journey so that all the under 60 or 65s can pay for the bus pass holders for whom the councils are probably only paying 50p to £1 per journey). Southern Vectis also don't offer capping on their very expensive individual contactless journeys even though one of their drivers did tell me before they introduced contactless debit and credit card payment that daily capping would be part of this introduction. So I have to go on holding and using their Key card or I would be charged twice as much for a day's worth of bus riding on the island using a contactless debit or credit card.
 
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MikeWh

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So as you seem very informed on the subject can you explain why the ITSO Key cards have more than one flavour and are not all interoperable and capable of being loaded with any rail or bus operator's ticketing details? And are Oyster cards (I don't have one any more as I now use contactless credit cards on TfL) ITSO cards or not?
I have very little knowledge of the inner workings of ITSO cards. Oyster cards are not ITSO cards AFAIK, but the readers in London can read ITSO cards so people with travelcards are able to use all London rail and bus services.
 

paul1609

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So as you seem very informed on the subject can you explain why the ITSO Key cards have more than one flavour and are not all interoperable and capable of being loaded with any rail or bus operator's ticketing details? And are Oyster cards (I don't have one any more as I now use contactless credit cards on TfL) ITSO cards or not?

For instance Southern has one ITSO Key card that then can't be used when travelling with Southern Vectis (an Isle of Wight bus company) and a number of other south coast transport operators (listed on the back of the Southern Vectis card and none of which are Southern as I have one of these cards as it gives me much cheaper 5 day pass bundles on buses on the Isle of Wight) who have their own different non compatible ITSO Key card (taking up another card space in the limited number of spaces in your wallet).

Southern Vectis also recently finally brought in contactless credit and debit card payment using the same readers on their buses as for The Key card but it isn't possible to load their multi day bundles on to a contactless credit/debit card and contactless credit/debit cards are only charged their prohibitively expensive individual journey fares (eg £3.50 for one three mile bus journey so that all the under 60 or 65s can pay for the bus pass holders for whom the councils are probably only paying 50p to £1 per journey). Southern Vectis also don't offer capping on their very expensive individual contactless journeys even though one of their drivers did tell me before they introduced contactless debit and credit card payment that daily capping would be part of this introduction. So I have to go on holding and using their Key card or I would be charged twice as much for a day's worth of bus riding on the island using a contactless debit or credit card.

I'm no expert either and its somewhat off topic to the title but its different software applications running to the ITSO standard. A bus operators software doesn't need to be as sophisticated as a rail operators. Eventually the cards will converge nationally. There is currently work going on to merge Southeasterns and GTR systems. On the marshlink line we have had readers installed about 6 months ago although there is not. currently a card that is valid available to the public. I believe some people are testing a card where you sign in with Southern at Rye and out with Southeastern at St Pancras. Keygo will be particularly complicated from here because of the different fares available to different London Terminals.
 

Mike99

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Well there jolly well shouldn't be any such differences when the services are now operated by the same rail operator (in the past before Govia Thameslink they weren't the same, which is probably actually why the approaches were so different) in to the same capital city as it blatantly and unfair and inequitable and the DfT ought to be working to eliminate this or preferably get out of the game in favour of a more proactive and competent rail franchising regulator.



Often providing more competitive and value for money encourages people to travel more but as the Dft and TfL have neglected investment in London's roads for 40 years they basically have people over a barrel in London as they have to travel by rail in the rush hour.



Presumably that just means more contactless payments instead of PIN and cash based payments but there is no reason why different types of multi day ticket bundles such as carnets can't be loaded on those contactless or smartphone based ticketing mechanisms (but smartphones are always going to be a problem due to the rapid battery discharge issue).



What complete and utter tosh. There are millions of contactless readers all over the UK and all over the western world in retail outlets none of which are operated by TfL. And systems such as the Key and their card readers use precisely the same RFID chipped cards and card readers as those used by TfL to read either Oyster cards or Contactless credit cards (which is why the readers at the gates and on the ticket machines didn't have to be replaced when contactless credit and debit card payment came in.)

Contactless payment is not a system developed by TfL but one developed by Visa and Mastercard principally and which secondary payment system operators like Amex have then tried to join on to in a rather incompetent, half hearted and desultory kind of way.

If however you worked for a TOC fare setting department, and you are certainly knowledgeable enough, but TfL, TOC, RDG or Department for Transport or whoever said "this is how we are pricing fares from Holmwood, Ockley, Horsham etc" what would you do? Accept it and get on with it, quit the job. argue to the bitter end or what
 

Capvermell

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If however you worked for a TOC fare setting department, and you are certainly knowledgeable enough, but TfL, TOC, RDG or Department for Transport or whoever said "this is how we are pricing fares from Holmwood, Ockley, Horsham etc" what would you do?

I don't know how the process of fare setting and approval works but surely DfT only rubber stamps proposals put forward to them by the train operating companies (only turning them down when they seem particularly unfair or inequitable).

So that being so the reason for lack of Carnet tickets in the Southern trains area surely won't be because DfT didn't want to approve them but because Southern never put forward a proposal to offer such fares?

With than being so then why were the Carnet fares offered at all on some of the lines of what is now the same train company (but weren't when the offer was created) to the north of London but not to the south? Carnet tickets are offered by other transport operators such as Southern Vectis buses who allow you to buy 5, 15 or 30 day carnets on their version of The ITSO Key card.

Surely there is nothing inherently different about the population of Surrey compared to Hertfordshire that say they don't need to be offered the Carnet fares???
 

KatieLouLou

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20 Oct 2014
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I've not read all of the opening rant which seems to boil down to one point... the OP is not comparing like for like, given the Super Off Peak tickets have a destination of Victoria. The off peak version is ticketed to London Terminals and is the base for the Travelcard. Not entirely sure why someone would think that a travelcard should be priced against a ticket valid to a specific destination. Fine if you want to go to Victoria; if you want a travelcard you have a wider selection of destinations; otherwise you use PAYG in London.

I've not checked but presumably if ticket specifically to Victoria and PAYG is the combination of choice, then a ticket to Sutton (for example, given the wider choice of trains) and changing to PAYG there is potentially cheaper?
 

Capvermell

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I've not read all of the opening rant which seems to boil down to one point... the OP is not comparing like for like, given the Super Off Peak tickets have a destination of Victoria. The off peak version is ticketed to London Terminals and is the base for the Travelcard. Not entirely sure why someone would think that a travelcard should be priced against a ticket valid to a specific destination. Fine if you want to go to Victoria; if you want a travelcard you have a wider selection of destinations; otherwise you use PAYG in London

No I'm complaining that a SuperOffPeak Travelcard is not being offered from certain stations that do offer a Super Off Peak ticket (Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham) even though other stations further out of London like Horsham on the same line do offer a Super Off Peak Travelcard.

I see no reason why if a Super Off Peak Ticket is offered from a station that a Super Off Peak Travelcard would also not be offered. The fact this is the case has the anomalous outcome that a Super Off Peak Travelcard to London can be purchased more cheaply from Horsham (further away from London) than an Off Peak Travelcard from Warnham station.

Also a Super Off Peak Return Ticket is valid to any Central London Thameslink station from Horley and not just to London Bridge for the same £9.80 fare as only gets you to London Victoria from Holmwood and Ockley. This again does not seem at all fair or reasonable.

P.S. If you haven't bothered reading all of what you call a rant then in my view you shouldn't comment as any comments you make are likely to be inaccurate in nature as is the case here........................
 
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bubieyehyeh

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Southern did a trial on the key of a carnet like option between horsham and victoria, but never followed it up. I'd really appreciate the key to support carnet like tickets, and be useable on london overground.
 

JonathanH

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Also a Super Off Peak Return Ticket is valid to any Central London Thameslink station from Horley and not just to London Bridge for the same £9.80 fare as only gets you to London Victoria from Holmwood and Ockley. This again does not seem at all fair or reasonable.

I suspect the issue is that the Super Off Peak Day Return Ticket (née Pricebuster) was a Connex product, then Southern. Horley doesn't currently have off peak trains to Victoria and the off-peak trains from Redhill to London Bridge have much more capacity than those to Victoria. Ideally for GTR, they would be valid to Victoria / London Bridge only but I suspect there is no such destination for tickets - they have to be valid to 'London Terminals'.

From the stations south of Dorking, GTR share part of the route with South Western Railway - I would imagine that under ORCATS they lose a load of revenue if the Super Off Peak ticket is valid to London Terminals rather than London Victoria where the train goes.

I could imagine that Southern get similar revenue from a super off peak ticket issued to London Victoria as they get from an off peak ticket issued to London Terminals justifying the offering. After all they are not obliged to offer the super off peak ticket at all.
 
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