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Northern Ticket Machine Update Issues

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SteveM70

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Re. these new Northern ticket machine interfaces: why on earth do you need a postcode for buying a season ticket? All you need is the photocard ID - that and no more.

I put my postcode in and it doesn't recognise it. I ask the guy at the ticket office and he says it's a widely reported but they don't know why either and have no way of "fixing" it.

Not to mention more buttons, more typing, more delays for passengers waiting in the queue. It's just nonsense.

At what stage do Passenger Focus / Railway Ombudsman get involved to look at the new interface and report back passenger feedback go enact improvements?

That’s ridiculous - you have to give your full address when you get a photo card, so no need to give it again
 
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xotGD

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That’s ridiculous - you have to give your full address when you get a photo card, so no need to give it again
These machines will soon be demanding your full address when you want to buy a return to Leeds!
 

alistairlees

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That’s ridiculous - you have to give your full address when you get a photo card, so no need to give it again
When renewing online two pieces of info are required: the photocard ID and the postcode. Requiring two pieces of info (and cross-checking these against a season ticket database) is to prevent the wrong photocard ID being inadvertently entered. The same applies at a TVM. If there were no means to cross-check, and customers were (occasionally) inadvertently entering the wrong photocard ID, then forum members would be on here posting about how crap that was.
 

causton

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That’s ridiculous - you have to give your full address when you get a photo card, so no need to give it again

That is exactly why you give it again, to verify it is the right account and you've not made up a photocard number or typed it in wrong, as then you will be angry when you lose it and can't get a replacement as they can't find it on the system!

In theory anyway - I can't vouch for how well Northern's works in practice, apparently not very well :lol: )
 

DC2001

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That is exactly why you give it again, to verify it is the right account and you've not made up a photocard number or typed it in wrong, as then you will be angry when you lose it and can't get a replacement as they can't find it on the system!

In theory anyway - I can't vouch for how well Northern's works in practice, apparently not very well :lol: )
Would it not be better if you could just scan the barcode on the photocard on the scanner under the card reader?
 

py_megapixel

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Do the ticket machines issue tickets on the blue ticket stock which I've seen used for them before, or on the more common orange?
 

SteveM70

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Do the ticket machines issue tickets on the blue ticket stock which I've seen used for them before, or on the more common orange?

I’ve used quite a few of Northern’s machines and always got the orange tickets (both buying on the machine and collecting)
 

Kingspanner

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After three blissful weeks on holiday, discovered new software on the TVM at Dinsdale this morning. Eventually worked out how to select "Season Ticket" (by not pressing "Buy Tickets" ! ) but then, having entered the photocard number, the transaction fell down because the screen asked for a postcode associated with the photocard, and apparently my home postcode did not match the database. I have a strong suspicion this is because the database has no entry at all for my postcode, I don't recall offering it at the time the photocard was issued. Mind you, I didn't have time to experiment with inserting a space before the final 3 digits. Luckily, no one else queueing, understanding Guard on the train etc.
 

exesoundtech

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After three blissful weeks on holiday, discovered new software on the TVM at Dinsdale this morning. Eventually worked out how to select "Season Ticket" (by not pressing "Buy Tickets" ! ) but then, having entered the photocard number, the transaction fell down because the screen asked for a postcode associated with the photocard, and apparently my home postcode did not match the database. I have a strong suspicion this is because the database has no entry at all for my postcode, I don't recall offering it at the time the photocard was issued. Mind you, I didn't have time to experiment with inserting a space before the final 3 digits. Luckily, no one else queueing, understanding Guard on the train etc.

Was this a monthly or 7 day? Don't forget you can't renew a 7 day, only buy a new one... ;)
 

Kingspanner

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Was this a monthly or 7 day? Don't forget you can't renew a 7 day, only buy a new one... ;)
Ah! It was a 7 day. I'll try to remember "buy new" when this comes up again next week. In the meantime I might interrogate the staff at Middlesbrough about what the database says the associated postcode is.
 

exesoundtech

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Ah! It was a 7 day. I'll try to remember "buy new" when this comes up again next week. In the meantime I might interrogate the staff at Middlesbrough about what the database says the associated postcode is.

If you've only ever had 7 day tickets, likely the database doesn't know about you at all, hence it couldn't match you.
 

Kingspanner

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Walking up to the counter at MBR to enquire as to what the database thinks my postcode is, the answer struck me and was confirmed by the smartly dressed young man behind the glass. My photocard was issued at a station run by TPE, and the ticket machine at Dinsdale is operated by Northern.
I shall press Northern's Customer Services for an answer (to the "get the TVM to issue me a 7 Day Season problem).
 

geoffk

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As I'm intending to go from Littleborough to Todmorden on the train this evening, I had a "play" with the new screen on the ticket machine, as this will be the first time I've used it.

I had to press a "button" 26 TIMES to get to the point where I was offered the ticket I wanted (off-peak day return with railcard) and was ready to pay! This is just two stops up the line; imagine there being a queue of people wanting more complex tickets, some of them unfamiliar with the screen layout. Some will miss their train. For an open ticket there should be no need to choose specific train times - just peak or off-peak.

I know there are a lot more options now but do we need this level of complexity? There has to be a trade-off between ease of use and the range of options on offer. Most of us can get to a ticket office if we don't want to buy on-line. I could have got mine at Lboro ticket office before it closed but if my train at 1858 is very late or cancelled then I will have to make other travel arrangements.
 

DC2001

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I shall press Northern's Customer Services for an answer (to the "get the TVM to issue me a 7 Day Season problem).
To get a 7-day season ticket you need to go to the season tickets page and select the buy a new season ticket option. It will then ask where you are going and ask for your photocard number and not your post code.
 

xotGD

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This morning there were 6 people queuing at the ticket office at Bingley and nobody using the ticket machine. I wonder why?
 

thejuggler

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As I'm intending to go from Littleborough to Todmorden on the train this evening, I had a "play" with the new screen on the ticket machine, as this will be the first time I've used it.

I had to press a "button" 26 TIMES to get to the point where I was offered the ticket I wanted (off-peak day return with railcard) and was ready to pay! This is just two stops up the line; imagine there being a queue of people wanting more complex tickets, some of them unfamiliar with the screen layout. Some will miss their train. For an open ticket there should be no need to choose specific train times - just peak or off-peak.

I know there are a lot more options now but do we need this level of complexity? There has to be a trade-off between ease of use and the range of options on offer. Most of us can get to a ticket office if we don't want to buy on-line. I could have got mine at Lboro ticket office before it closed but if my train at 1858 is very late or cancelled then I will have to make other travel arrangements.

But it has all been done for your benefit - I have it in writing from Northern so it must be true.
 

Kingspanner

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2019
Messages
325
Location
Dinsdale
After three blissful weeks on holiday, discovered new software on the TVM at Dinsdale this morning. Eventually worked out how to select "Season Ticket" (by not pressing "Buy Tickets" ! ) but then, having entered the photocard number, the transaction fell down because the screen asked for a postcode associated with the photocard, and apparently my home postcode did not match the database. I have a strong suspicion this is because the database has no entry at all for my postcode, I don't recall offering it at the time the photocard was issued. Mind you, I didn't have time to experiment with inserting a space before the final 3 digits. Luckily, no one else queueing, understanding Guard on the train etc.
After last week's debacle, tried again today to extract a seven-day season from the Ticket Machine at Dinsdale. Trying to renew led to the usual postcode problem. Tried to buy new, this sidestepped the postcode but the screen froze at the point of selecting the ticket.
Incidentally, emailed northern last Tuesday, haven't had the courtesy of a reply. @northernman where are you?!
 

thejuggler

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1,186
Melt down for m-card users this morning who were trying to buy weekly tickets.

Card was recognised until the buyer wanted to actually load the card then it crashed the system. Nice long queue as a result.

I keep telling myself it is all for my benefit.

Don’t expect a response in four days. Give it about 4 weeks.
 
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LMS 4F

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11 Aug 2019
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I am of an age where we are supposed not to be happy with modern technology. I have used these machines at two different stations, with my senior railcard and my bus pass within West Yorks, to buy single and multiple tickets and have had no problem.
The only issue is the sighting of the one at Castleford is not good when in full sun early in the morning.
I have not tried to buy anything more complicated than off peak fares.
 

northernman

Verified Rep - Northern
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19 Jul 2012
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139
A friend was using the TVM at Navigation Rd (near Altrincham on the Stockport - Chester line) - he reports:

I was collecting tickets for journeys I’m making later this week. So, since no one else was around I thought I’d try the “Promise to Pay” option again; it is not good…

The first screen you get is the “Choose one of the quick selections” – I was offered Halifax or Leeds

So, on the same screen I chose “Find other selections

A new screen comes up the selections are worse, I now had Leeds, Dewsbury, Walsden (Not Walkden, I don’t even know where this is, presumably near Leeds) or London Terminals. It obviously thinks Navigation Road is in West Yorkshire.

So, I then manually input a destination and chose to put in MAN, which slightly confusingly offered me a selection of Manchester Piccadilly, Man OX RD, Man Victoria, Deansgate or All Manchester stations. I chose the All option.

It then asked me when I was travelling, “Now” or “Later” were the only options available but others were greyed out. I chose later and you go to a digital clock which you must then input whether you are Leaving After or Arriving By – the digital clock is on a +/- system. I’d lost the will to live by now and gave up. There could have been more questions, I’d not stated if I wanted a return or how many tickets, if I had a railcard, if I was a child, etc., etc.

Whatever you do make sure you have a plastic card with you.

To be serious, is it beyond the will of Northern to have the first screen give you (say) … Piccadilly, Stockport, Knutsford, Delamere and Chester? With the second screen giving you (say) Altrincham, Hale, Northwich, Euston.

Why can’t the P2P ticket be a single selection which just shows the station you are leaving from and the time of you acquired the ticket? If you had a family of 4 it could take you 15 minutes to sort the current system out.

Why it has to be so difficult and is not user friendly.


Hi, we are working on the first screen for 'popular destination/ticket combinations', so my apologies your friend found it rather difficult to find the intended destination. Same with the second screen, a few errors have crept in, which is why Walsden, not Walkden was showing. The Promise to Pay feature needs to capture the intended journey so we can track the conversion to actual tickets purchased, hence why once you have selected the intention to require a promise to pay permit, the machine requests to tell it the journey you are making.
 

northernman

Verified Rep - Northern
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19 Jul 2012
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139
Noticed all the Ribble Valley line stations have machines now, except Whalley. Have noticed that it looks like it will be going inside the small shelter on Platform 1. Can get a bit cramped in there on a wet morning.

Any ideas when this machine will appear? Considering this line is supposedly a penalty fare line and the guard often doesnt get down the train before Blackburn with its unwelcoming yellow subway army.

Whalley TVM is now installed
 

northernman

Verified Rep - Northern
Joined
19 Jul 2012
Messages
139
First try of the new software at Dore today. Just a day return to Sheffield for my son and I. The first thing that struck me was the sheer non-responsiveness of the screen. When I pushed the screen it seemed to want to bring up a cursor rather than just interact with the screen area selected. I really had to thump the screen at some points. Each selection took a minimum of four to five presses to get what I wanted. I could not get Sheffield to select on the quick destination screen so had to through the whole process. Luckily, thanks to this thread I knew just to pick any trains but the selection processes seemed very long winded. Luckily my train was running late so got them in time.

Apologies the screen was responsive. We are working with the supplier to ensure the calibration of the screen is more reliable. We are also looking ti reduce the volume of button pressing and scrolling required. One challenge with touch screens is the type used. In the previous machines some screens would react to rain, therefore too sensitive, these screens usually are not affected by that, but do require a jab of the on screen button. I have been corresponding with the chair of the local rail users group separately about Dore TVM, so its on my watch list, thanks for your feedback
 

northernman

Verified Rep - Northern
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19 Jul 2012
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Thing is, all the functionality the machine offers is actually an improvement - the ability to check train times before buying a ticket, to buy tickets in advance, to get advance purchase deals, to load tickets onto smart cards and the rest - so no complaints in that respect.

The issues all surround the user interface - it is over complicated, unclear and long winded - plus of course the touch screen doesn't always work quite right! Incidentally I don't recall the touch screen being an issue with the old software so maybe a calibration issue?

The requirement to journey plan for any ticket not on the popular products is a problem when trains are close to departure and not showing on the journey planner as a result. In most cases when buying a ticket for immediate travel the walk up ticket type is flexible for any train so this just introduces unnecessary complexity and confusion. For such purchases it would be much simpler for a description of any restrictions to display next to the ticket name/price.

Thanks for your feedback, a lot of customers tell us they prefer the system given the greater choice it offers, and that was the intention. However there is still some way to go. I am running a process with our supplier to improve the process and make it quicker and easier, and many of the ideas and feedback from this forum have been taken into consideration. We have seen a calibration problem on some machines and our supplier is working on that.
 

northernman

Verified Rep - Northern
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19 Jul 2012
Messages
139
When I was in Italy a couple of years ago, there was almost always a group of boys - never girls - about 12-15 years old at main stations who would offer to help buy your ticket from the complex Trenitalia machines. They had expert knowledge of routes and tickets, were invariably efficient and honest, and did all this in the expectation of a €1 or €2 tip.

Because of the decline of the traditional jobs for teenagers like paper and milk rounds, maybe this is something Northern should encourage. :D

If I don't get this software fixed I think thats going to be my next career move....... :)
 

northernman

Verified Rep - Northern
Joined
19 Jul 2012
Messages
139
Re. these new Northern ticket machine interfaces: why on earth do you need a postcode for buying a season ticket? All you need is the photocard ID - that and no more.

I put my postcode in and it doesn't recognise it. I ask the guy at the ticket office and he says it's a widely reported but they don't know why either and have no way of "fixing" it.

Not to mention more buttons, more typing, more delays for passengers waiting in the queue. It's just nonsense.

At what stage do Passenger Focus / Railway Ombudsman get involved to look at the new interface and report back passenger feedback go enact improvements?

The need for a postcode is because it performs a lookup against our season ticket database, the theory is, if you are an existing customer then the renewal process is quicker. However if you bought your season at a non Northern ticket office then we wont have your details. So some refinement there to be done. We are working with Transport Focus on the improvements.
 

Gems

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10 Nov 2018
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Why not go onto 'The Shed' and answer some of the booking office staff's concerns? Why is internal disquiet ignored in favour of a social forum?
 

northernman

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139
Why not go onto 'The Shed' and answer some of the booking office staff's concerns? Why is internal disquiet ignored in favour of a social forum?

Its not, there have been several internal briefings to all staff, so perhaps if you drop me a line on email I can update you if you have missed it.
 

xotGD

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Thanks for your feedback, a lot of customers tell us they prefer the system given the greater choice it offers, and that was the intention. However there is still some way to go. I am running a process with our supplier to improve the process and make it quicker and easier, and many of the ideas and feedback from this forum have been taken into consideration. We have seen a calibration problem on some machines and our supplier is working on that.
Clearly this forum is unrepresentative then.

The thing is, if I want to make a complex journey, reserve seats, consider different routes etc I will do this in advance on line. If I am just rocking up at the station it is because I just want to buy a ticket and get on the next train. That should be the primary functionality of ticket machines on stations. The upgrade has made the primary functionality less user friendly and added features that the vast majority of users neither want nor need.

And of course if half a dozen commuters end up stuck behind the one person who is trying to figure out a complex journey, the benefit to the one is outweighed by the disbenefit to the many. A reduction in net utility, as Jeremy Bentham might have said. Please return things to how they were.
 

js517

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If Northern truly believe that the changes made are an improvement and that they don't significantly increase interaction times they should give a commitment of the maximum amount of time a passenger is expected to queue for TVMs before giving a right to buy on the train.
 

Kaydee

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If Northern truly believe that the changes made are an improvement and that they don't significantly increase interaction times they should give a commitment of the maximum amount of time a passenger is expected to queue for TVMs before giving a right to buy on the train.
I certainly do not believe the changes are an improvement for an occasional traveller such as myself. Last week I tried to book a simple off-peak day return from my local station on the Buxton line to York to find that the TVM had been "improved" with the latest software. Not being familiar with the process, it took me nearly 5 minutes and I reckon over 20 steps to buy it. I do not need to say what trains I want to travel on (flexibility of travel is implicit in the ticket conditions), I do not need reservations(not available anyway on Northern), I do not want PlusBus and I am not telling you my mothers maiden name (OK I made up the last one!). Fortunately no-one was behind me, as they would have missed the train (I only just caught it) as it looks as if you have to enter all these details even to get a permit to travel. The alternative - risk a penalty fare and full price ticket with no railcard discount. The perfect "hostile environment" to travel with Northern! (BTW Unbelievably Manchester was not a "popular destination" so I would have had the same process - including declining seat reservations!).
 
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