WMT Passengers' Charter encouraging people to board without tickets?

Why would it be unreasonable for someone to think, on the basis of the West Midlands Trains Passengers' Charter - or the Charter combined with the National Rail Conditions of Travel - that they are allowed to board without a ticket after three or five minutes in a queue?

West Midlands Trains Passengers' Charter said:

If you want to get on board, you need a valid ticket or buy a permit to travel using a machine at your starting station. If you have been unable to buy a ticket before boarding, you can purchase one on arrival at your destination and explain to the team. They will be happy to sell you a ticket.

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West Midlands Trains Passengers' Charter said:

Remember to arrive at the station in plenty of time to buy a ticket if you have not already bought one in advance. Our aim is to make sure you do not have to queue more than five minutes at peak times or three minutes at any other time. We display details of these peak times at ticket offices. We will monitor our achievements of these queuing times as part of our continuous improvement programme. In specific situations where queueing times are not being achieved at a station, you can buy either a ticket en route or at your destination.

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https://www.westmidlandsrailway.co....KFAntkGJM2Qs/wmt-passengers-charter-dec17.pdf

The company might say "specific situations" is intended to mean only some, not all. But since they don't specify any, it might seem reasonable to think it means all situations where you have to wait more than three or five minutes.

A reasonable exception might be if you were buying a long time in advance and didn't have any special reason for not queuing for a bit longer than three or five minutes. The company clearly can't exclude all the situations, so why would a situation where the train pulls in be excluded?

It doesn't say how passengers are supposed to know what "specific situations" mean they "can" board without a ticket.

It doesn't say that the unspecified "specific situations" need permission from staff, or that you need to indicate to anyone that you are going to board.

The passage including "specific situations " doesn't mention permits to travel. In any case, if you can't get a ticket, you may not be able to get a permit either.

West Midlands Trains said:

our Passengers' Charter sets out exactly what you can expect from us. There can be no excuses because it’s all there in plain sight...

Everything is open, honest and straightforward.

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https://www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk/about-us/our-performance/passengers-charter

National Rail Conditions of Travel said:

When you buy a Ticket...you enter into a binding contract with each of the Train Companies...The Conditions set out the rights and obligations of passengers and the Train Companies ...
Most Train Companies operate a Passenger’s Charter that offers additional passenger rights on their services. ....In addition to the industry arrangements set out under these Conditions and Passenger’s Charters, you are also able to rely on statutory rights.

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https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf

For some background, including an intention to send a summons:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/i-am-truly-scared.189045/

The newly published East Midlands Railway Charter (another Abellio opertaion) is very similar but with one key difference:
"Remember to arrive at the station in plenty of time to buy a ticket if you have not already bought one in advance. Our aim is to make sure you do not have to queue for more than five minutes at peak times or three minutes at any other time. We display details of these peak times at ticket offices. We will monitor our achievements of these queuing times as part of our continuous improvement programme. Where queueing times are not being achieved at a station and are prolonged, you can buy either a ticket en-route or at your destination."

The highlighted section from EMR compares with the WMT wording quoted above - "In specific situations where queueing times are not being achieved at a station". So EMR makes no mention of "specific situations" and, as far as I can see, gives unequivocal permission to board without a ticket if the queuing time is longer than 3/5 minutes.

For reference, the Charter from previous operator East Midlands Trains gave no such permission and the clear implication was that one needed to queue for as long as it took.

It would certainly appear to me that in the light of the above any Court case with regard to the linked thread would have a good chance of failing. I can't see how that couldn't be seen to be that the 3-5 minute time applied, and if you waited longer you could board.

When I saw the title of this thread my first thought was it was about a "Charter" of the steam train variety encouraging trespassing!

Penalty Fare guidance from DfTalready has restrictions on their use when there is regular excessive queueing times, and the excessive queue times are as mentioned in the Charter here.

How will they monitor queuing times at ticket machines? Please don’t let it be by having a man with a clipboard and stopwatch stood watching

SteveM70 said:

How will they monitor queuing times at ticket machines? Please don’t let it be by having a man with a clipboard and stopwatch stood watching

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How else would you suggest they are monitored? There are very few stations that are equipped with automated equipment for this purpose.

Haywain said:

How else would you suggest they are monitored? There are very few stations that are equipped with automated equipment for this purpose.

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I was being sarcastic. There just seems something wrong with paying someone to stand next to a machine that’s in part there to put people out of work and measure how it’s not effective enough. Almost like something out of Kafka.

A more serious answer might be to calculate the average transaction duration, and whenever transactions occur about that often it’d be reasonable to assume someone had to wait. Or more likely use remotely monitored cctv

Are these guideline times brought up in the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement anyway?
It’s my understanding that if something isn’t clearly defined or there is ambiguity (in this instance “Specific Situations” then if nothing else, the Consumer Rights Act would find in favour of the passenger.

These (new) terms are exactly what has been missing from the whole "buy before you board" equation ever since TOCs started getting nasty with people who don't. I'd like to think that these terms are there because of franchise commitment.

No - I'm not in favour of a "free-for-all" where fare paying is optional; rather it places greater emphasis on the TOC to make guaranteed adequate provision for passengers to discharge their responsibility. The situation as it exists in my local TOC gives them little or no incentive to offer comprehensive at-station facilities. They only have to install one (badly sited, if it suits them) TVM and they can immediately start penalising those who don't use it (etc.)