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Child mistake- train fare price
- Thread starter Jane Oakley
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RailUK Forums
See: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fares-thousands-of-passengers-overcharged.189482/
An Off Peak fare is not a 'discounted' fare (unless it has been discounted, e.g. with a Railcard)
Actually a 'discounted fare has a specific definition; it means that a discount has been applied to the 'public' fare.
An Off Peak fare is not a 'discounted' fare (unless it has been discounted, e.g. with a Railcard)
Ah I stand corrected. But I believe full fare usually refers to an undiscounted SDS/SOS for these purposes (unless I'm wrong on this too). I probably meant appropriate as opposed to full fare. That said the TOCs are guilty of this too. TPE once in correspondence described a rover as a 'discounted fare' despite no railcard being involved but that's another story.
In any event barring any irregularity in how this was issued, error of fact or potential lack of facilities my advice would be for your daughter to pay the notice and chalk it up to experience.
In any event barring any irregularity in how this was issued, error of fact or potential lack of facilities my advice would be for your daughter to pay the notice and chalk it up to experience.
gray1404
Established Member
I do recall a case on here some time back where a parent's child (under 18)was stopped. The parent received a letter asking for the fare and the admin fee. The parent spoke to the TOC on the phone, the prosecutions office, and the TOC agreed to just accept the fare as payment to close the matter. It was definitely one of the First Group TOCs. I understand it is GWRs policy not to procedure minors usually.
What I'm saying is if the parent wants to complain to the TOC then feel free. I'm not saying they'll lower the amount. Personally I'd pay and complain later if I felt I had grounds.
What I'm saying is if the parent wants to complain to the TOC then feel free. I'm not saying they'll lower the amount. Personally I'd pay and complain later if I felt I had grounds.
maxbarnish
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It would help if Government was robust and prepared enough to insist that child rate applies to anyone under the age of voting for any goods and services in the country - but they don't do this, hence the confusion.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There may be benefits to that, but that it's 16 on public transport is VERY well known. Most 16/17 year olds buying child tickets are knowingly trying it on.
I am not sure a TOC can take payment for a ticket over the phone? If the cardholder isn't present, it could be contested later and the TOC would likely lose the money?
Was this the reason for wanting a phone call to be made?
Otherwise I am not sure why anyone needed to call a parent at all over a ticketing issue where the fare could be paid later. It was no big deal or anything to get overly anxious over (it can be dealt with later, giving time for things to sink in). Everyone gets anxious in life, whatever their age.
I also wonder why there's the constant mentioning of county lines? I've seen the Home Office guidance on this, and I am pretty sure that a conversation with train staff has absolutely nothing to do with it - unless she was being coerced into travelling by someone else, and wanted rail staff to call you or the police to get her help. THAT would be considered a safeguarding issue, and I'd hope rail staff would do everything in their power to assist in such circumstances.
When it comes to ticket prices, the adult age varies loads. Look at events or flying, where it seems that once you're out of nappies you're an adult!
221129
Established Member
A penalty fare would not be allowed to be issued.
Can you explain this further?
Generally my understanding is that Penalty Fares are for "genuine mistakes". Whether asking for a child fare when you are not eligible for a child fare is a genuine mistake is moot.
So issuing a PF might not be appropriate but could be allowed?
WesternLancer
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The OP raises an interesting question in her later post ref the UFN. It seems that the situation (perhaps at the suggestion of the child but do not of course know that) might have been 'can my mum pay over the phone the sum I am now being asked for?' - and for some reason the child was led to believe that the member of staff would do that, perhaps later on / not in the child's presence, but actually what happened was the UFN follow up 'bill' came along, and never any phone call. The OP believing that this resulted in a higher 'charge' for the incident.
Anyway, my question is - would it ever be the case that if stopped for having the wrong ticket a TOC member of staff would secure the payment on the spot by phoning someone else who can pay on behalf of the individual stopped then and there, ie if that person did not have any cash or payment cards with them?
As an aside it might have been more sensible NOT to persuade the child to pay the penalty then and there with whatever funds they had on them, as said child might only have had eg £20 on them for their day out, and thus be left with no money at all, which would put them more at risk later on in the day if they needed some money - eg to eat / get an emergency taxi etc etc.
Anyway, my question is - would it ever be the case that if stopped for having the wrong ticket a TOC member of staff would secure the payment on the spot by phoning someone else who can pay on behalf of the individual stopped then and there, ie if that person did not have any cash or payment cards with them?
As an aside it might have been more sensible NOT to persuade the child to pay the penalty then and there with whatever funds they had on them, as said child might only have had eg £20 on them for their day out, and thus be left with no money at all, which would put them more at risk later on in the day if they needed some money - eg to eat / get an emergency taxi etc etc.
WesternLancer
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In this case OP states that ticket was bought on line ahead of journey, by child, who selected (presumably) child rate fare. But that is not your key point I realise.
My understanding is that railway staff have been asked to be aware of - for example - an unaccompanied youngster on a Birmingham - Totnes ticket (or similar). The sort of journey that might be somebody coerced into carrying drugs - or might equally be somebody going to visit their grandparents.
Very unlikely.
221129
Established Member
Torre is not a Penalty Fare station.
Thanks for the explanation.
RPI
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Yes it is, has been since 1st April 2019.
KevinTurvey
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I was reading through this thread and noticed a number of comments saying they should have known you have to pay the full fare at 16 - did they? Whilst this is quite correct when you check out the T&C's, can I give my own alternative experience from being this age many years ago (pre-internet days)
It was popular held belief that whilst you were still at school you only paid child fares. (i.e. not having gone beyond 5th form) This was pretty universal and unquestioned across my peer group. Probably all of the people in my 5th form having reached 16, still purchased child tickets blissfully unaware. Nobody I know was ever challenged on it by drivers/inspectors when in school uniform.
No teacher or parent(s) had ever mentioned it, the fact was, nobody really knew that you were supposed to.
This mindset was perhaps reinforced by the fact that many, myself included, had a free bus/train pass which ran to the end of the school year, months beyond our 16th birthdays.
I suspect a similar situation will exist today with many parents/pupils believing as we did, that you only start paying adult fares after you have left school, irrespective of whether you had reached 16 during that period.
It was popular held belief that whilst you were still at school you only paid child fares. (i.e. not having gone beyond 5th form) This was pretty universal and unquestioned across my peer group. Probably all of the people in my 5th form having reached 16, still purchased child tickets blissfully unaware. Nobody I know was ever challenged on it by drivers/inspectors when in school uniform.
No teacher or parent(s) had ever mentioned it, the fact was, nobody really knew that you were supposed to.
This mindset was perhaps reinforced by the fact that many, myself included, had a free bus/train pass which ran to the end of the school year, months beyond our 16th birthdays.
I suspect a similar situation will exist today with many parents/pupils believing as we did, that you only start paying adult fares after you have left school, irrespective of whether you had reached 16 during that period.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Your experience was very different to mine, we were all very aware of when you had to pay full fare on the buses & trains, parents knew it, schools knew it, the kids knew it. This of course didn't stop some still trying it on, but this was all very common knowledge. If it is now the case that parents & teachers are no longer aware of when concessions apply, something has very badly gone wrong. Which in today's connected world, with more access than ever is a little worrying to say the least. Because if we knew of this in the late 70s and early 80s, there's really little excuse for it not to be communicated today.
What I will say is that my young niece, who very recently moved to high school, was made aware of all of this by her new school when the kids went to visit their new school in the final term of the old one. So it does still happen in some places at least.
RPI
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On the train line app when selecting "child" you have to put the age of the relevant children in.
WesternLancer
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Of seem note. I just looked at Trainline website - if you select child it does not ask age but you have to select / it clearly states 5-15 option (presumably so people know under 5 is free)
OP did not state if her child selected 5-15 in error (thus suggesting they did not know how old they were), or if they selected it thinking they would 'get away with it'. OP does imply that it was child's first solo trip.
I think it is worth bearing in mind that kids can be very impressionable mostly from their peer group! (ie other kids saying, "don't worry just buy the child ticket it's cheaper, no one will ever know / they never check etc etc") Whereas I'm prepared to think that when challenged the child came clean / was worried enough to come clean etc (so belatedly did the right thing), and indeed the staff member 'did the right thing' by serving the UFN, not issue one of the tougher sanctions that could have been issued - but that's my opinion and the OP may feel differently!
I remain mindful that the nub of OP's query was about the way child was dealt with when 'caught', and general policy on child fare age - not so much about whether child acted dishonestly on purchase etc, which we don't know.
Y Ddraig Coch
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Pay it and ensure you claim delay repay for your daughters delay after the train cancellation. You should get most of the ticket cost back
RPI
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Just gone into train line app and if you tap on the "child" option it asks you to select childs age, see pic. (First time I've uploaded a pic)
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RPI
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Also, judging by the fact that a letter was sent asking for costs then this isn't a UFN but a Travel Irregularity Report (TIR) was submitted, a UFN would simply be for the fare and nothing else
WesternLancer
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Now that IS good advice!Pay it and ensure you claim delay repay for your daughters delay after the train cancellation. You should get most of the ticket cost back
BlockBackBobby
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The OP seems to have disappeared (probably to mumsnet where she’ll get the sympathy she was looking for).
They were logged in around 2200 last night so are presumably still reading.
Think nothing has been said recently that requires a reply from them.
Indeed. Just pointing out they haven't gone.
philthetube
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I am puzzled by the phone call thing, I cannot see a any reason for a phone call to be made, I would be 99.99% sure that the girl would have a mobile anyway
It seems as if she wanted someone to back up her claim to be a child despite her being 16.
If this had been me as a 16 year old I would have been more concerned about my parents finding out and would definitely not want them calling.
It seems as if she wanted someone to back up her claim to be a child despite her being 16.
If this had been me as a 16 year old I would have been more concerned about my parents finding out and would definitely not want them calling.
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