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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

samuelmorris

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Never mind the access charges, which do matter, but there a drop in the Ocean, like i say the costs of training drivers/fitters or conversion courses, keeping competence and then there's the maintenance of such a small fleet, 769s are going to cost a fortune and the wrong route (no pun) has been taken by Northern and they should have had proper Bi-modes built to cover journeys like @js1000 has listed above, would have made more sense, but the Flex looked like a quick fix. Not no more!
The 769s made sense at the time when a large fleet of 319s was the intention. The upset with Porterbrook and the 323s and how they solved it, justifiably, with the early decommissioning of the unconverted 319s, now officially renders the 769s the wrong move. They weren't to know it at the time, but between the microfleet they're going to be by the time they're introduced combined with the, as far as I can tell, worst in class delay of any stock upcycling programme (and it's a pretty miserable field of competition) have led to them effectively being a mistake. Whether that fact changes their future remains to be seen. From Northern's perspective, what could you do instead? They have the advantage of not having had to fund all the development on the 769s and only pay when they start receiving them, but any additional new stock such as the current crowd-favourite 755s, would have to come via a tender, and would also have to meet DfT approval in an area of the country where keeping costs down comes far higher up the pecking order than passenger satisfaction.
 
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Bertie the bus

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er, what FFR? Have the movements on the GCR dealt with all that is required? I don't think one has even moved under its own diesel power on the national network yet...
I’m unsure why it needs pointing out but my comment about testing and FFR being complete wasn’t serious. It was a light hearted comment regarding the unit moving a few yards and the latest claim in the railway press about the units being handed over at the end of this month.
 

IanXC

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They weren't to know it at the time, but between the microfleet they're going to be by the time they're introduced

They were always going to be a microfleet, if they weren't going to be, then there would have been no point in the project in the first place!
 

samuelmorris

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They were always going to be a microfleet, if they weren't going to be, then there would have been no point in the project in the first place!
But there was great value in having some degree of commonality with the 319s, as there is with the 195s and 331s. Not retaining the 319s makes them much more of a microfleet than they were before.
 

JonathanH

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a_c_skinner

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so obviously a micro fleet

Alas that seems likely, but Northern hasn't thought big enough about bimodes. Of course if they had we'd not have the 769s at all, their new units would have been many more bimodes. If that path is a 331, lets hope they are trying the doors out.
 

driver_m

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Just seen on the other forum that a 769 is currently moving around the NW. Traksy and Real-time trains are your friends for this one.
 

EE Andy b1

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Just seen on the other forum that a 769 is currently moving around the NW. Traksy and Real-time trains are your friends for this one.
Arr but is it on leccie or diesel or is it being dragged by diesel, there quite good at that.
 

PomWombat

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A gauging run, now the diesel equipment is fitted underneath?

Or perhaps a nerve-settling run to show it can get home if the "self-powered" part fails?
 

JN114

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Gauging is generally done with computer modelling now, and a very small bit of verification that the computer models are correct.

It was mentioned upthread that brake force comparisons were expected vs known handling characteristics for 319s - if (as designed) they are the same then 319 handling time can then carry greater weight in 769 training for all prospective 769 operators.
 

EE Andy b1

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Here’s proof following its arrival at Preston - https://flic.kr/p/2had5cQ

Before anybody gets too carried away with thinking it will enter traffic soon, it was on electric and doesn’t have any seats.

No seats, after all this time and running on electric (although it is under the wires), the pan is up you can see.

There not in much of a hurry are they!
 

palmersears

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So effectively all they've done so far is test a slightly heavier, standing room only, 319? My, what progress they've made.
 

Antman

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I think you willing find that they push it as providing triple or even quadruple capacity high density stock capable of great route availability and extremely economical on diesel (it never uses it....). Perfect for amazon to deliver parcels with.....
 

AMD

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The test run was to check the braking capability now that it has more weight, at full speed on a main line, to ensure that the modelling is accurate; as the last thing we want is drivers running the risk of a SPAD because they can't stop in time..... so it doesn't matter whether it was running on diesel or electric - the Grand Central railway testing was about making the diesel powerpacks work properly.
 

EE Andy b1

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The test run was to check the braking capability now that it has more weight, at full speed on a main line, to ensure that the modelling is accurate; as the last thing we want is drivers running the risk of a SPAD because they can't stop in time..... so it doesn't matter whether it was running on diesel or electric - the Grand Central railway testing was about making the diesel powerpacks work properly.


Well unless the Flex unit was weighted with extra ballast, which maybe it was, without the weight of the seats there not going to get a true measure of brake force, and pottering around on the Great Central upto 60-75 mph does not give a real world testing of the diesel gen-sets.
So running round on electric, we've got an overweight 319, running round on diesel, if it ever does, we've got an underpowered 769, maybe.

I'm glad there getting the 769 brake tested because very soon they'll be slipping and sliding around for a couple of months anyway, so certainly wouldn't want to add to the driver's wows because the unit is underbraked.
 

PomWombat

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Brake tests would make sense.

The photo seems to show a stack of yellow bags in the passenger compartment in the first carriage. Perhaps they were simulating crush loading weight.
 

Bertie the bus

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It did have lots of bags of ballast. I'll try to load some through the window shots later if anybody is interested.

The unit also didn't seem to know whether it was Arthur or Martha as the destination display was showing as 'Northern Rail Class 319'.
 

a_c_skinner

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Excellent progress. Well I should say excellent, progress.

it was Arthur or Martha as the destination display was showing as 'Northern Rail Class 319'.

Which may be the destination of all of them if they cannot be made to work reliably!
 
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a_c_skinner

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It seems a little guarded at present. We will see. I suppose this was the inevitable first step, making sure you can stop them before setting them to accumulating mileage and training. Now the 319s seem to be going Northern has ordered the wrong number of 769s. They either need a decent fleet or none.
 

AM9

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Well unless the Flex unit was weighted with extra ballast, which maybe it was, without the weight of the seats there not going to get a true measure of brake force, and pottering around on the Great Central upto 60-75 mph does not give a real world testing of the diesel gen-sets.
So running round on electric, we've got an overweight 319, running round on diesel, if it ever does, we've got an underpowered 769, maybe.

I'm glad there getting the 769 brake tested because very soon they'll be slipping and sliding around for a couple of months anyway, so certainly wouldn't want to add to the driver's wows because the unit is underbraked.
They have chose the class 319/4s for conversion to class 769s. That subclass had its brakes uprated in 2006 and as they were predominately deployed on the Beford to Brighton services, that would have been assessed as suitable for the crush loadings that they were regularly carrying. The actual gross weight of a crush loaded class 319 exceeds the weight of a class 769 with a full passenger load so I would not see their braking performance as being a problem.
 

edwin_m

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They have chose the class 319/4s for conversion to class 769s. That subclass had its brakes uprated in 2006 and as they were predominately deployed on the Beford to Brighton services, that would have been assessed as suitable for the crush loadings that they were regularly carrying. The actual gross weight of a crush loaded class 319 exceeds the weight of a class 769 with a full passenger load so I would not see their braking performance as being a problem.
The train would have to stop in the required distance with the maximum load that's physically possible, plus the extra weight of the diesel kit. By definition that needs better braking performance than a 319, though it may be comparable to the 170 which is a heavier body on a similar bogie. Being Northern I imagine a crush load would happen more often than intended.
 
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AM9

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The train would have to stop in the required distance with the maximum load that's physically possible, plus the extra weight of the diesel kit. By definition that needs better braking performance than a 319, though it may be comparable to the 170 which is a heavier body on a similar bogie. Being Northern I imagine a crush load would happen more often than intended.
Only the 319/4s were uprated yet the 319/0, 319/2 and 319/3 subclasses weigh the same as the 319/4s and have the same passenger crush load, then there must be some spare capacity on the uprated braking system, - presumably enough to accommodate the additional weight.
 

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