Dutch Double-Decker Trains

This is my first post so hello everyone!
I’m just wondering if anyone has travelled on the double-decker trains they have in Holland? i believe the models are the NS VIRM Class 8600/8700/9400/9500.
I was in Amsterdam earlier this year and noticed them but unfortunately never got the chance to travel in one.
What are they like and why haven’t British Rail looked into using a double-decker train?

Astramis said:

This is my first post so hello everyone!
I’m just wondering if anyone has travelled on the double-decker trains they have in Holland? i believe the models are the NS VIRM Class 8600/8700/9400/9500.
I was in Amsterdam earlier this year and noticed them but unfortunately never got the chance to travel in one.
What are they like

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I have done it once a couple of years ago. A pretty nice train by dutch standards. There are trip reports on Youtube.

Astramis said:

and why haven’t British Rail looked into using a double-decker train?

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They have, but the small british loading gauge makes it hard to build double decker trains for UK.

I guess one could have them in commuter trains or even Eurostar on HS1.

Astramis said:

What are they like and why haven’t British Rail looked into using a double-decker train?

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See the links to the threads below - as you will see the forum has discussed this issue many times.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/double-decker-trains.186533/

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-double-deck-trains-be-viable-in-the-uk.169292/

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/double-decker-trains.123289/

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/my-idea-for-double-decker-commuter-trains.125128/

Astramis said:

i believe the models are the NS VIRM Class 8600/8700/9400/9500

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NS also have a 50 strong fleet of DDZ (series 7500 and 7600), which are rebuilt from older commuter trains of the DD-AR type.

Excellent units I must say.

Thousands of times. What was your question about them?

As stated there many variants, the four different generations of VIRM, the DDZ (refurbished DD-AR), the unrefurbished DD-AR and the original DD1 loco hauled carriages.

I have travelled on them in Netherlands. Quite claustrphobic upstairs - the ceiling is low (but I am tall). but quite comfy. downstairs its quite exciting because you are nearly sitting at track level!
I have used them in Germany (Berlin - Postdam and Brandenburg) They are trailers and a loco. Seemed more spacious. Went quite fast i felt. Better than the s-bahn to Potsdam.

Saw a few when I lived in Brussels in 2001 but never caught one.

Is the DB loading gauge bigger than the NS one?

edit. the OP may like to look up the BR double decker train
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD

My usual IC train to and from Brussels for work every day is a double decker. Loads of space, comfortable seats, decent toilets in every other carriage. In the peak they are usually two trains coupled together. A class 27 locomotive leading or following and another in the middle. People in the UK have lots of doubts about dwell time and stairs etc. but maybe that's just a hint of jealousy Huge capacity on the busiest lines. Charleroi-Antwerp especially.

Although I would guess they were designed for commuters with little heavy luggage. I see people struggling with big suitcases heading for Charleroi airport, even on the step up into the vestibule.

If only trains in Belgium ran later in the evening. I usually have to leave a concert in Brussels before the last song as the last train is so early.

Here's a video of my local station with a P (peak train) and a double deck IC. I usually sit with a book just in front of that wheelchair ramp on the left hand side.

TheSeeker said:

My usual IC train to and from Brussels for work every day is a double decker. Loads of space, comfortable seats, decent toilets in every other carriage. In the peak they are usually two trains coupled together. A class 27 locomotive leading or following and another in the middle. People in the UK have lots of doubts about dwell time and stairs etc. but maybe that's just a hint of jealousy Huge capacity on the busiest lines. Charleroi-Antwerp especially.

Although I would guess they were designed for commuters with little heavy luggage. I see people struggling with big suitcases heading for Charleroi airport, even on the step up into the vestibule.

If only trains in Belgium ran later in the evening. I usually have to leave a concert in Brussels before the last song as the last train is so early.

Here's a video of my local station with a P (peak train) and a double deck IC. I usually sit with a book just in front of that wheelchair ramp on the left hand side.

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that’s really cool! thank you for the in depth reply!! your local looks like a lovely station too!

Ken H said:

Is the DB loading gauge bigger than the NS one?

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No, the NL/NS loading gauge is bigger. 4.7m or even 4.8m (h) by 3.6 or 3.8m (w) whereas the DE/DB gauge is 'only' 4.680m (h) by 3.2 or 3.4m (w).
The typical NS double decker train (VIRM, 4.670 m (h) by 3.020 m (w)) is also just a little bit bigger than their German cousin (Bombardier Twindexx, 4.632 m (h) by 2.784 m (w)).

TheSeeker said:

My usual IC train to and from Brussels for work every day is a double decker. Loads of space, comfortable seats, decent toilets in every other carriage. In the peak they are usually two trains coupled together. A class 27 locomotive leading or following and another in the middle. People in the UK have lots of doubts about dwell time and stairs etc. but maybe that's just a hint of jealousy

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Why are NS buying single decks for new trains these days?

TheSeeker said:

If only trains in Belgium ran later in the evening. I usually have to leave a concert in Brussels before the last song as the last train is so early.

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Do they finish early because they start early? I get the impression that Belgian start work earlier than some neighbouring countries.

radamfi said:

Why are NS buying single decks for new trains these days?

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Accessibility and (with the sprinter trains) dwell times.
Regarding the ICNG: the requirements were: an EMU suitable for the High Speed Line, with accessible access, and proven technology. When the tendering process began, there was no solution for same level boarding with the Dutch platform height of 76 cm with a double deck train, which, as a result, meant that the train would be single deck.
As they replaced single deck trains and offered a higher capacity than the trains they were replacing, this wasn't seen as a problem at that time (and bear in mind, that at the time when the ITT was written, the government still had the plans to abolish the free travel card for students, which would cause passenger numbers to decline).
Nowadays, there are solutions in place for multiple units with both single and double decker coaches (Bombardier Omneo, Siemens Desiro HC) or even on fully double decker trains (Stadler KISS), so when the tendering process for the Double Decker Next Generation begins (those are expected to be in service in 2027, and will replace the DDZ trains), there will be solutions available for the accessibility problem.
Regarding sprinter trains (e.g. Sprinter Next Generation), the dwell times are too important. Sprinter trains should be able to have a maximum dwell time of 42 seconds, including doors opening and closing, and the accessibility requirements are there as well. Double decker trains are usually not be able to match those dwell times.
I personally don't expect the next generation Sprinter trains (Sprinter 5th Generation, expected to be in service in 2025), to be (fully) double deck due to those requirements, but it would be a nice surprise and a welcome boost in capacity.

radamfi said:

Why are NS buying single decks for new trains these days?

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I'd ask the same about DB, it's not unreasonable if they replace a double decker with a longer single decker, but often the single decker has a lowere capactity, e.g. the Airport Express in Berlin. Plus their single deckers have far too many steps due to the bogies

gordonthemoron said:

I'd ask the same about DB, it's not unreasonable if they replace a double decker with a longer single decker, but often the single decker has a lowere capactity, e.g. the Airport Express in Berlin. Plus their single deckers have far too many steps due to the bogies

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Yes if walking through some single deck trains in Europe, there are quite alot of steps.

I have travelled on Double Deck Trains in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, France and Switzerland, & have always enjoyed being on the upper deck. (France even has some double deck high Speed Trains TGVs.)

I believe France has loads of double deck TGVs, more than single deck now.

Yup, we have a majority of double deckers and are only buying these now.

When I have been in Europe on Double Deck Trains, I have noticed that the doors are always very wide, that must help people get on and off more quickly. Though on a lot of trains there, there only seems to be one door per carriage, rather than at least 2 in the UK.

Belgian double-deckers have two large double doors on each side of each car. But despite that, double decker trains are considered unsuitable for all stop trains because they need too much dwell time at each stop, and do not accelerate quickly enough. So for all stop trains, single level EMUs are used. Double deckers are attributed to intercity and fast rush hour trains. For the moment, all double deck stock is loco hauled, but the new M7 stock is not going to change that.