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The Fifteen Guinea Special

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edwin_m

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What intrigues me are the two surviving coaches on the ELR. These are late-build Mk1s which would have been less than 10 years old in 1968. Surely they would have been required for front-line services back then, so what were they doing in a railtour?
I've also done a Google check and it was a Sunday, so they may have been spare from other duties.

My contribution to the recollections here is a dim memory of being taken to the hill above Saddleworth viaduct, aged just less than three, to see one of the specials in the final week and being told (incorrectly) that it was the last steam train. I remember being rather surprised that steam trains were still running so it may have been the only occasion I ever saw one in the "steam era".
 
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Journeyman

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What intrigues me are the two surviving coaches on the ELR. These are late-build Mk1s which would have been less than 10 years old in 1968. Surely they would have been required for front-line services back then, so what were they doing in a railtour?

It was a Sunday, so there would have been plenty of spare stock knocking about.
 

70014IronDuke

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If they had B4 or Commonwealth bogies, it was probably a front-line service consist. Didn't some of the specials have buffet cars in any case?
 

Journeyman

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If they had B4 or Commonwealth bogies, it was probably a front-line service consist. Didn't some of the specials have buffet cars in any case?

The Fifteen Guinea Special was a one-off formation, as far as I can tell, formed entirely of TSOs with a BSO at each end, and two kitchen cars. No compartments, no first class.

If I remember right, it was BSO-TSO-RK-4xTSO-RK-TSO-BSO. 7 of the 10 vehicles were blue and grey, including the two that have survived.
 
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Bevan Price

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What intrigues me are the two surviving coaches on the ELR. These are late-build Mk1s which would have been less than 10 years old in 1968. Surely they would have been required for front-line services back then, so what were they doing in a railtour?
No problem in 1968 - Sunday services were mostly infrequent back then. Even 6 specials the previous Sunday ( 4 August) would not create many problems.
 

Bevan Price

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From memory, typical railtour prices in about 1968 were around £3 to £4, and I decided the 15 guinea special was too expensive. So I photographed it at Rainhill in the morning, and at Sankey Viaduct on its return. At Rainhill station in the morning, it seemed that much of the local population was allowed on the track to photograph it. The line was closed in both directions, and the police were there to help control the crowds. 70013, the last working Britannia had a reputation of not being a great performer at that time.

The previous Sunday, 4 August, I travelled on a SLS special, one of six railtours on that day. Seen here at Rose Grove:-

mxbp024c19_RoseGrove_040868.JPG

Most of the railtour passengers were allowed to wander round Rose Grove depot; the only loco in steam was 48773, waiting to take over one of the other tours.

mxbp024c20_RoseGrove_040868.JPG

However, by the time I left the depot, this had appeared:-

mxbp024c23_RoseGrove_040868.JPG
48519 on an engineers' train, and quite possibly the final steam operated freight in 1968. Our train was about to depart, so there was no time to get a better photo. The stock of our tour train is on the left.
 

satisnek

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Thanks for the replies - if it was a one-off formation then it stands to reason. I can only remember things from a decade or so later when BR had sets of old, decrepit stock used for Merrymakers, etc.
 

Journeyman

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Thanks for the replies - if it was a one-off formation then it stands to reason. I can only remember things from a decade or so later when BR had sets of old, decrepit stock used for Merrymakers, etc.

Beeching highlighted the inefficiency of keeping vast numbers of carriages in reserve for very occasional use, and they'd pretty much all gone by 1968. Very few pre-nationalization coaches remained in service by then.
 

edwin_m

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Beeching highlighted the inefficiency of keeping vast numbers of carriages in reserve for very occasional use, and they'd pretty much all gone by 1968. Very few pre-nationalization coaches remained in service by then.
If I recall correctly the only pre-nationalisation hauled passenger stock to make it into blue and grey were some sleepers, LNER buffets and a few LMS "porthole" stock. DMUs and Beeching would have removed most of the secondary loco-hauled services which were the traditional place for older stock, and by that time Mk2s were pushing Mk1s out of the front line as well.
 

Journeyman

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If I recall correctly the only pre-nationalisation hauled passenger stock to make it into blue and grey were some sleepers, LNER buffets and a few LMS "porthole" stock. DMUs and Beeching would have removed most of the secondary loco-hauled services which were the traditional place for older stock, and by that time Mk2s were pushing Mk1s out of the front line as well.

Yeah, that fits in with what I've read elsewhere - the subject of older vehicles in blue and grey has been quite extensively debated. As far as I can tell, the last big fleet of pre-nationalization coaches would have been the Bulleids on the Southern, which were all withdrawn in July 1967 at the same time as the region's last steam locos. A handful survived on other regions for a year or two, but none were repainted. I've seen a pic of a rake of green Bulleids behind a blue Class 33, though.

Once older coaches had been weeded out by the things you've mentioned, it left BR with a very modern fleet for a while.
 

Cowley

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Ha! Difficult to answer that question in the sense that "a lot of" does not really tally with the steam-hauled passenger trains - there were so FEW of them :)

Well, that's at least as I remember, but I could only get up to Lancashire on the penultimate Tuesday of steam - I guess that was - quick google - 23 of July. I spent the days in Lancashire/Cumbria and the nights in Mk 1 compartments in overnight trains between Carlisle/Barrow and Euston. I can't remember asking, but I'm pretty sure there was nothing regular steam hauled earlier in July, except
perhaps the 20.50 Preston - Blackpool on Saturdays, which came off a London-Carlisle working (I think) - would it have been something like 17.05 ex-Euston?

Anyway, on the penultimate Saturday, that was a Black 5. I think it was 4 or 5 coaches, swamped with enthusiasts. The atmosphere was tremendous, and at that point I decided I simply had to be up for the final show a week later. It was history, and impossible to miss.

Except I had a problem, or two. First, my LMR rover was to run out at 23.59 on the next Monday. I didn't have the cash for another one, not even asking with a squeaky high voice, IYSWIM :)

Second, I'd agreed to go on a cycling holiday with schoolfriends, starting on Mon, August 05 - which meant things were going to be very tight if I was still in Lancashire late on August 03.

The solution was an immediate overnight back south, home for a bath and some clean clothes (don't ask) and back up to buy a seven-day NW Runabout. This meant the best - or better put, least-worst - kip on the cushions was Carlise to Skipton (a bit less than 2 hours) on the Glasgow - St Pancras sleeper - a miserable wait of about an hour from about 02.30 to 03.30 - and then back to Carlisle again on the down sleeper. I did this at least twice without oversleeping and going beyond the legitimate limits of the ticket.

I think I found another weary friend one night, and at Carlisle we left on the first up departure behind a Cl 50 - c 06.00 hrs. That morning we passed a Black 5 hauling a failed 2-car DMU. I think it was south of Oxehnolme and the train was bound for Windermere - surely the last steam-hauled failed DMU on BR! I'm not sure, but I think this was Tuesday morning, July 30.

That week, the rumour mill was strong as to what would be the last steam-hauled train. AFAIK there was no other steam turn until Friday, August 02, when the 21.25 Preston - Liverpool was a Black 5. I didn't see that. Despite the kindness of another enthusiast's mother in Skipton putting me up for a night or two, I was so knacked on the Friday night I paid for a B*B in Preston, just down the road from the overbridge north of Preston station. I think it was 28 shillings, or £1.40p in new money (that hurt, but I could hardly think I was so tired).

Then, on Saturday 3rd, all the intelligence reports were that Lostock Hall would put Black 5s on both the 20.50 Preston-Blackpool and 21.25 Preston-Liverpool. And so it transpired.

I have wondered it this was just the shed foreman working with what he had, or if someone higher up had wisely issued instructions to have the two trains steam worked in an attempt to manage the crowds. Because both trains were swarming with enthusiasts - and had there been just one working, it would have been potentially dangerous overcrowding.

I got on the footplate at Liverpool Exchange with the rafters echoing to the strains of "Steam goes marching on" from the crowd. What passing 'normals' thought I don't know. It was madness.

Along with about seven others, plus driver and fireman, we left light engine to return to 10D, but as the Jethro Tull song goes, they mostly dropped off one by one (well, four at Aintree, I think it was) and there was me and another chap, plus driver Ernie Hayes (spelling?) and fireman left when we got on shed. I presume we shook hands, said thank you, and then off we walked, starting around 23.30, to Preston station.

Such were the overnight services back then that it was simply turn up and go at Preston. My footplate companion and I parted our ways, I found a Mk 1 SK in some overnight Glasgow - Euston consist and woke up at Euston, thankfully undisturbed by any gripper eager to issue an excess Wigan to Euston - because I don't think I would have had the dosh.

At Euston, in the early light I passed scores of RCTS (or maybe LCGB) folks heading north on the first leg of one or more of the six specials. I remember watching them and thinking, smugly - "You've missed the real thing, lads."

But perhaps I wasn't smug - because as far as I was concerned, it was true - they had.
I thought you were saving all this stuff for the book..? :lol:
Fascinating stuff. Really enjoyed reading it.
 

Taunton

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If I recall correctly the only pre-nationalisation hauled passenger stock to make it into blue and grey were some sleepers, LNER buffets and a few LMS "porthole" stock.
These were actually pre-nationalisation designs, but built well into the BR era and the 1950s, in fact to just before the first dmus. They would only be 15-20 years old in 1968. The "LMS" 12-wheel sleepers were built quite some time after BR Mk 1 stock had appeared in quantity. Almost all the WR Hawksworth coaches were built by BR.
 

70014IronDuke

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The Fifteen Guinea Special was a one-off formation, as far as I can tell, formed entirely of TSOs with a BSO at each end, and two kitchen cars. No compartments, no first class.

If I remember right, it was BSO-TSO-RK-4xTSO-RK-TSO-BSO. 7 of the 10 vehicles were blue and grey, including the two that have survived.

I'm sure you are correct. I was (somewhat in OT-mode) thinking of the six specials of August 04.
 

70014IronDuke

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I thought you were saving all this stuff for the book..? :lol:
Fascinating stuff. Really enjoyed reading it.

Oh, thank you. I have since found my notebook of that period and realised there are some (relatively minor) errors in the account. Most significantly the failed DMU hauled by a Black 5 (44894) was indeed on the 30th July - but I seem to have done a (rather short) overnight from Crewe to Carlisle behind D1756, then a dawn ride to Workington for my one and only visit to the shed there, returned to Carlisle for a southbound train (train engine D401) and got off at Oxenholme. (I have no memory of this.) The next entry says Oxenholme - Morecambe Failed DMU 44894.
I'm guessing that I would have got to Oxenholme about 10.30 to 11.00 ish.
I'm certain I didn't catch this train, I can only assume I boarded a DMU and failed to put the numbers down. Bit strange though.
 
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