Class 321 with a door open for 23 minutes

Metal_gee_man · 5 Sep 2019

So the Beeb pick up on a little issue with the class 321, I'm glad they are disappearing soon.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-england-essex-49593420

BBC News
Doors open on moving Southend train for 23 minutes
05 September 2019 Essex
A door on a passenger train was open for 23 minutes while the vehicle travelled at 80mph (128km/h).

A passenger reported it to the driver at Hockley station, in Essex, at 07:20 BST on the Liverpool Street to Southend line on 22 August, the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) said.

The train travelled in traffic for 16 miles (26km) with the door open.

The RAIB has conducted an investigation and will release a "safety digest" at a later date.

Copyright © 2019 BBC. The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites.

RailUK Forums

samuelmorris · 5 Sep 2019

All the more scary when incidents like this happen on your local route. People may have joked about the lackluster quality of the Renatus refurbishment being unsafe, but this suggests there's more to it than that!

ijmad · 5 Sep 2019

Yikes, why didn't anyone pull an alarm?!

edwin_m · 5 Sep 2019

samuelmorris said:
All the more scary when incidents like this happen on your local route. People may have joked about the lackluster quality of the Renatus refurbishment being unsafe, but this suggests there's more to it than that!

The decision to go for a Safety Digest instead of a full report suggests the cause is relatively straightforward.

AC47461 · 5 Sep 2019

Given that Hockley is only ten minutes or so out of Southend Vic, it's fairly safe to assume the occurred on a Southend Bound train between Shenfield and Hockley (which is about 16 miles). Odd that no one seems to have raised anything considering it must have stopped at Billericay, Wickford and Rayleigh as well....

I wouldn't be surprised if all the doors got in the Renatus programme was a quick once over and a repaint to cover the rusting round the windows....

swt_passenger · 5 Sep 2019

ijmad said:
Yikes, why didn't anyone pull an alarm?!

Would be too busy videoing it for YouTube, or calling a claims line...

DarloRich · 5 Sep 2019

or perhaps, more likely, unsure what to do and not keen to approach and open door.

Metal_gee_man · 5 Sep 2019

Looking at the date, it was during the "Warm" spell so all the commuters were probably happy for the air to be rushing into the carriage as the air con probably packed up before 6am that morning!

ijmad · 5 Sep 2019

I mean, to be fair, I've travelled on Indian trains which don't actually seem to have doors, with my legs dangling out, at well over 50mph. Even in places like Poland, many of the older trains run with the doors open. But slightly different health and safety culture here though.

Surreytraveller · 5 Sep 2019

ijmad said:
Yikes, why didn't anyone pull an alarm?!

Because they've probably read this forum and been scared off pulling the alarm by the Alarm Police, and it wasn't an emergency because no one was hanging out the doorway, and if there was, there was no danger because they should check Realtime Trains to see if there's a train coming in the opposite direction before deciding whether to use the alarm

Leo1961 · 5 Sep 2019

Surreytraveller said:
Because they've probably read this forum and been scared off pulling the alarm by the Alarm Police, and it wasn't an emergency because no one was hanging out the doorway, and if there was, there was no danger because they should check Realtime Trains to see if there's a train coming in the opposite direction before deciding whether to use the alarm

Where is that "Like" button when you need it most?

westv · 5 Sep 2019

Metal_gee_man said:
Looking at the date, it was during the "Warm" spell so all the commuters were probably happy for the air to be rushing into the carriage as the air con probably packed up before 6am that morning!

When I travelled on the line until 2008 we didn't have any air con - that seemed to be reserved for the Chelmsford line services. Has that changed now?

route101 · 5 Sep 2019

ijmad said:
I mean, to be fair, I've travelled on Indian trains which don't actually seem to have doors, with my legs dangling out, at well over 50mph. Even in places like Poland, many of the older trains run with the doors open. But slightly different health and safety culture here though.

Yeah see it in Serbia . EMUS in Istanbul the doors never shut . Didnt see it in Poland , thought they would have better safety there.

DynamicSpirit · 5 Sep 2019

Metal_gee_man said:
Looking at the date, it was during the "Warm" spell so all the commuters were probably happy for the air to be rushing into the carriage as the air con probably packed up before 6am that morning!

Lol! Realistically, pulling the alarm is going to delay the train and therefore stop all the passengers on it getting where they want to go. So it's not hard to see that some passengers could figure that, provided everyone is staying away from the door so there's no immediate danger to anyone, it's kinda better for everyone on board not to pull the alarm.

ag51ruk · 5 Sep 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
Lol! Realistically, pulling the alarm is going to delay the train and therefore stop all the passengers on it getting where they want to go. So it's not hard to see that some passengers could figure that, provided everyone is staying away from the door so there's no immediate danger to anyone, it's kinda better for everyone on board not to pull the alarm.

I think that it should be clear to anyone that an open door on a moving train is very much a reason to use the alarm, whether you think you will be delayed or not

westv · 5 Sep 2019

An open door facilitates a speedier exit at your destination.

greatkingrat · 5 Sep 2019

Presumably at that time of the morning, in that direction, the train would have been fairly empty, so it is possible there were only a few people in the carriage and they weren't looking at the affected door.

Starmill · 5 Sep 2019

greatkingrat said:
Presumably at that time of the morning, in that direction, the train would have been fairly empty, so it is possible there were only a few people in the carriage and they weren't looking at the affected door.

I agree. I think that by far the most likely explanation is that simply nobody noticed, including all staff and passengers present.

AC47461 · 5 Sep 2019

westv said:
When I travelled on the line until 2008 we didn't have any air con - that seemed to be reserved for the Chelmsford line services. Has that changed now?

30 of the 321 units (301-330) have had a 'refurb' which includes aircon, ironing board seats and a disabled toilet. It's not too bad but the aircon isn't great, neither are the seats (although personally i much prefer the posture of them over the old seats which I've always found too low, but we are all different....). Also worth noting is that it wasn't, as far as I know, at the behest of GA, who took them on but didn't specify the internals. Hence the hard seats.

The unit pictured in the BBC article is one of these.

Wivenswold · 5 Sep 2019

On the first day of training on British Rail's YTS scheme, we were told "When you see a moving train, you watch it pass, check the doors, check the train, make sure there's a tail lamp or light on at the back." Even if you're two sheets to the wind on a stag do.

Of course, that applied to platform staff who were in attendance to keep an eye on railway assets at virtually every station. The failure of course was that ticket machines replaced them and are not very observant.

Bad day for Abellio/Mitsui Sumitomo as the failure over Class 720 commissioning comes out. Though we all spotted it over a year ago here. Sadly the media only report on press releases these days, so they're only just waking up to the crisis.

edwin_m · 5 Sep 2019

Wivenswold said:
On the first day of training on British Rail's YTS scheme, we were told "When you see a moving train, you watch it pass, check the doors, check the train, make sure there's a tail lamp or light on at the back." Even if you're two sheets to the wind on a stag do.

It was in the Rule Book which we all signed up to (not the bit about the stag do). Good justification for us office-based types to look out of the window all day...

Metal_gee_man · 5 Sep 2019

westv said:
When I travelled on the line until 2008 we didn't have any air con - that seemed to be reserved for the Chelmsford line services. Has that changed now?

Didn't the Renatus refurb/upgrades add air con?

Mitchell Hurd · 5 Sep 2019

Surely all trains with automatic doors should automatically have their brakes applied when a door opens?

iphone76 · 5 Sep 2019

Metal_gee_man said:
Didn't the Renatus refurb/upgrades add air con?

It did. But it isn't the best most of the time. A door being open like this would be much more effective.

Nagora · 5 Sep 2019

ijmad said:
Yikes, why didn't anyone pull an alarm?!

Why would they if the train wasn't standing room-only (I don't know if it was or not)? The train's getting them where they want to go and the passengers are probably all capable of remembering not to walk out an open door at 80mph.

It puts the thread about taking a train out of service for a faulty PA into perspective, though.

DynamicSpirit · 5 Sep 2019

greatkingrat said:
Presumably at that time of the morning, in that direction, the train would have been fairly empty, so it is possible there were only a few people in the carriage and they weren't looking at the affected door.

I would have thought that, at 80mph, the noise from the wind going past an open door would be loud enough that anyone in the same carriage would at least be looking to see what was up.

samuelmorris · 5 Sep 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
I would have thought that, at 80mph, the noise from the wind going past an open door would be loud enough that anyone in the same carriage would at least be looking to see what was up.

It's probably no louder than the way doors on 321s rattle even when closed, especially when closed.

Clarence Yard · 5 Sep 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
Lol! Realistically, pulling the alarm is going to delay the train and therefore stop all the passengers on it getting where they want to go. So it's not hard to see that some passengers could figure that, provided everyone is staying away from the door so there's no immediate danger to anyone, it's kinda better for everyone on board not to pull the alarm.

That's exactly what happened way back, when I was working in Hornsey CS one sunny day and, "stopping to observe", saw an in service 313 passing by on the up fast with all the doors open! A bit jaw dropping, to say the least. The phone indicators at KX Power Box lit up as all of us lineside between Wood Green and Harringay, who individually had seen it pass by, raced to the nearest phone and rang in.

By all accounts, some punters weren't too happy to be turfed out at Finsbury Park. They thought it was o.k. to travel in it and really didn't appreciate the delay! It had left Wood Green (now Alexandra Palace) station without the guard but obviously with an interlock fault.

Stuff sometimes happens but it really, really shouldn't with punters aboard.

DynamicSpirit · 5 Sep 2019

ag51ruk said:
I think that it should be clear to anyone that an open door on a moving train is very much a reason to use the alarm, whether you think you will be delayed or not

Why? If no-one is standing near it, then the open door isn't likely to be causing anyone any harm. As a (somewhat imperfect) analogy, there have been times in hot weather when I've ridden on buses in which the driver has (apparently, deliberately) left the door open, and I don't ever recall anyone questioning that at the time. An open door on a quiet train is obviously a lot more surprising, but it seems hard to argue that it's any more immediately dangerous than one on a bus.

samuelmorris · 5 Sep 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
Why? If no-one is standing near it, then the open door isn't likely to be causing anyone any harm. As a (somewhat imperfect) analogy, there have been times in hot weather when I've ridden on buses in which the driver has (apparently, deliberately) left the door open, and I don't ever recall anyone questioning that at the time. An open door on a quiet train is obviously a lot more surprising, but it seems hard to argue that it's any more dangerous than one on a bus.

Buses don't travel at 80mph passing other traffic that runs at similar speeds in the other direction. The force of a passing train is enough to knock things over on high-speed stock, it's not to be underestimated. Also remember that on Renatus units the vestibule dividers are no longer there.

Class 321 with a door open for 23 minutes

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