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Northern Dec 2019 Timetable Bid

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Philip

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And travel to/from the Airport, I presume you mean. Well they certainly shouldn't be travelling from Bolton, since the TPEs are generally set-down only at Bolton, heading south. As to Preston and Lancaster, well Preston has two alternative services to the Airport per hour, and Lancaster has one. (Occasional ex-Windermere services don't currently call, but I'm sure that situation is capable of being sorted out). How many trains to the Airport do the folk of Preston and Lancaster need?
I accept that passengers probably travel from Carlisle to/from Manchester Airport, but there are Virgin trains available as well as TPE, and an easy interchange at Preston.

And likewise, there are many other services between Wigan and Manchester to make an easy change in Manchester for the Airport. Ideally capacity should be improved in Manchester to allow all services to continue running as they are, with the additional Connect services to come, but if a Preston-Airport had to be diverted to Victoria to make space, then it makes the most sense to divert the Cumbria service.
 
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Bovverboy

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And likewise, there are many other services between Wigan and Manchester to make an easy change in Manchester for the Airport. Ideally capacity should be improved in Manchester to allow all services to continue running as they are, with the additional Connect services to come, but if a Preston-Airport had to be diverted to Victoria to make space, then it makes the most sense to divert the Cumbria service.

I'm not sure, but I think you may be behind the times, Philip. The TPE doesn't go Wigan way now, it's the Northern Barrow/Windermere service which does. Things have changed a few times in recent years.
 

Bovverboy

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I think diverting the Scottish services would be a terrible idea! I’m someone who travels once a week between Glasgow and Manchester Piccadilly (to make an onward connection to the south of Manchester) and there are a very high number of people who do this, as well as those joining in Cumbria. Running the service to Victoria would inconvenience a lot of people who make onward connections from Piccadilly or Oxford Road, as well as those actually heading to the Airport. Whilst both Glasgow and Edinburgh have their own airports, there are far more frequent flights to many more international destinations from Manchester than can avoid changing planes at Heathrow.

On an average journey, how many passengers who are on a TPE by, say, Penrith, would you say continue to the airport? It can't be many, since I'm only too well aware of how few passengers in total are still on after Piccadilly.
As to whether people, on average, would prefer to travel to Oxford Road/Piccadilly rather than Victoria, I think that would be difficult to establish without having a census. The Calder Valley is accessible by rail directly from Victoria, but not Piccadilly. It's swings and roundabouts. I can't help but suspect, though, that the majority of passengers alighting from an ex-Scottish TPE at one of the Manchester stations are actually terminating their rail journey. In that event, taxis, for instance, are at least as accessible at Victoria as anywhere else.

Not to mention for people travelling from Cumbria, travelling direct to Manchester Airport is a lot more convenient than travelling up to Scotland to then have to make 2 or 3 changes to get to the airport!!

I can't imagine why someone travelling from Cumbria to Manchester Airport would need to go via Scotland.
 

Philip

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I'm not sure, but I think you may be behind the times, Philip. The TPE doesn't go Wigan way now, it's the Northern Barrow/Windermere service which does. Things have changed a few times in recent years.
I know that, my point is that if one of the Preston-Manchester services which currently goes to the Oxford Road corridor had to be diverted to Manchester Victoria, then it makes more sense to divert the Northern Cumbria service, than it does the TPE Scottish service.
 

Voyager lad

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I can't imagine why someone travelling from Cumbria to Manchester Airport would need to go via Scotland.
I was meaning that if services no longer directly went from Cumbria to Manchester Airport, people wanting to use Glasgow or Edinburgh airport would have to make multiple changes, as someone else earlier suggested that people in Cumbria should just use Scottish Airports instead
 

Agent_Squash

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I know that, my point is that if one of the Preston-Manchester services which currently goes to the Oxford Road corridor had to be diverted to Manchester Victoria, then it makes more sense to divert the Northern Cumbria service, than it does the TPE Scottish service.

I'd argue the Airport bit of the service is most useful for those Cumbrian services, especially the ones from Windermere which are typically packed full of tourists! Sure, the TPE calls at Oxenholme - but then the railway uses its convenience value for quite a few and the car becomes a more attractive option. Neither service should be considered for a diversion - especially as the Northern services help crowd bust the TPE from stations south of Oxenholme/Lancaster.
 

Whisky Papa

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Oddly, Sowerby Bridge and Mytholmroyd have only recently been added to the Sunday service on York - Blackpool.

Basically true, but there were some calls. Pre the May 2018 debacle, the first three Sunday trains to Blackpool used to call at Sowerby Bridge, and I assume there were equivalent calls in evening trains from Blackpool (I'd finished work by that time of day so it wasn't something I took in as readily). The whole Westbound morning timetable used to be off pattern: from Bradford Interchange, for example, those Blackpool trains departed at roughly xx13 and the Man Vics at xx25, whereas the regular pattern which kicked in after 1200 was the reverse of that.
 

Deerfold

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Basically true, but there were some calls. Pre the May 2018 debacle, the first three Sunday trains to Blackpool used to call at Sowerby Bridge, and I assume there were equivalent calls in evening trains from Blackpool (I'd finished work by that time of day so it wasn't something I took in as readily).

They were fairly recent and were added in stages. I think it started with just one service each way calling at Sowerby Bridge.
 

superkev

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The local Rail Action Group has taken up the issue:https://hadrag.com/
As Hadrag pointed out Sowerby Bridge has a larger catchment area than Hebden Bridge and Todmordon combined yet resource are, for reasons I dont understand, concentrated on Hebden bridge and Mythomroyd rather than Sowerby Bridge.
So sad when the Friends of sowerby bridge do such a super job (have you seen the geese?) and have just won the Platinum award.
In contrast Network Rail continues with total neglect and havent done any painting for prob 30 plus years (note the sickly pink canopies which were red.
I'm sure as Hadrag point out there's massive amounts of padding in the Calder Valley timetables do stopping all trains at Sowerby bridge would not extend times.
I wish Hadrag well but I suspect they will be ignored.
K
 

Deerfold

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As Hadrag pointed out Sowerby Bridge has a larger catchment area than Hebden Bridge and Todmordon combined yet resource are, for reasons I dont understand, concentrated on Hebden bridge and Mythomroyd rather than Sowerby Bridge.
So sad when the Friends of sowerby bridge do such a super job (have you seen the geese?) and have just won the Platinum award.
In contrast Network Rail continues with total neglect and havent done any painting for prob 30 plus years (note the sickly pink canopies which were red.
I'm sure as Hadrag point out there's massive amounts of padding in the Calder Valley timetables do stopping all trains at Sowerby bridge would not extend times.
I wish Hadrag well but I suspect they will be ignored.
K

Mytholmroyd gets the same service as Sowerby Bridge. Mytholmroyd is getting a bigger car park, but Sowerby Bridge's has been expanded a couple of times too.
The most disappointing feature at Sowerby Bridge was the dedicated bus stops and turning area for services which ran for about 3 years.


When I was growing up Sowerby Bridge was my local station, with 4 buses an hour to where I lived (every 20 minutes plus one by a different route). It was also served by an hourly service from Halifax not via Sowerby Bridge and a handful of buses from Hebden Bridge and Huddersfield.

Services at the station improved through the eighties and into the nineties and patronage has improved enormously.

Now the irregular frequencies and worse bus service means that when visiting family, I'm as likely to use Hebden Bridge (with an hourly bus service) or Halifax (with effectively 2 buses an hour, only half of which go through Sowerby Bridge).

With the latest changes it will have the same frequencies as in the early 90s in total (but at least then they were evenly balanced) with the service to Halifax and Bradford being as bad as in the mid 80s.

Ironically Sowerby Bridge had as many as 5 buses an hour to Bradford in the early 90s, but I suspect the faster, more frequent train service affected the number of people using those past Halifax, but they mostly took less then the hour wait between services from December.
 
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158756

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Mytholmroyd gets the same service as Hebden Bridge. Mytholmroyd is getting a bigger car park, but Sowerby Bridge's has been expanded a couple of times too.
The most disappointing feature at Sowerby Bridge was the dedicated bus stops and turning area for services which ran for about 3 years.

Mytholmroyd has the same service as Sowerby Bridge, not Hebden Bridge. Todmorden, Hebden Bridge and Mytholmroyd do relatively well given the populations because the road along the valley is so slow and Hebden Bridge in particular has become very trendy and popular with commuters, neither of which apply so much in Halifax.

What was the point of the dedicated buses and where did they go?

With the latest changes it will have the same frequencies as in the early 90s in total (but at least then they were evenly balanced) with the service to Halifax and Bradford being as bad as in the mid 80s.

Ironically Sowerby Bridge had as many as 5 buses an hour to Bradford in the early 90s, but I suspect the faster, more frequent train service affected the number of people using those past Halifax, but they mostly took less then the hour wait between services from December.

Isn't it just going back to the same service there was a couple of years ago before the unexpected addition of stops on the Blackpool trains?
 

Deerfold

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Mytholmroyd has the same service as Sowerby Bridge, not Hebden Bridge
Thanks - slip of the fingers, that's what I was trying to say. I've corrected that.

. Todmorden, Hebden Bridge and Mytholmroyd do relatively well given the populations because the road along the valley is so slow and Hebden Bridge in particular has become very trendy and popular with commuters, neither of which apply so much in Halifax.

What was the point of the dedicated buses and where did they go?

The point was to link various communities near the station but without a direct bus link to the station at the time. They were funded by the Rural bus grant, but poorly advertised.

I think there were only 2 buses out at a time, but they were timed to meet trains in both directions.

Isn't it just going back to the same service there was a couple of years ago before the unexpected addition of stops on the Blackpool trains?

For about 15 years there was a half hourly service to Manchester and to Leeds via Bradford. In 2008 the service via Brighouse was added. In (I think) 2010, one of the services via Bradford was dropped.

The addition of the Blackpool service brought the 2 trains per hour to Bradford back, but poorly spaced.


So we're going back to the 2010 service as it was for about 8 years (during the week), dropping the Sunday service to Manchester which has existed for 35 years to my knowledge (and possibly since the first Sunday services from the station).
 

Glenn1969

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Sowerby Bridge has twice as many passengers as Mytholmroyd but half as many as Hebden Bridge and Todmorden. Guess you can see why the latter 2 stations get a better service
 

Deerfold

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Sowerby Bridge has twice as many passengers as Mytholmroyd but half as many as Hebden Bridge and Todmorden. Guess you can see why the latter 2 stations get a better service

If Sowerby Bridge had the service level of Hebden Bridge, would it get more passengers?

When I travelled regularly from there, a lot of people were travelling to Bradford. Hebden Bridge will once again have 3 times as many trains to there. Hardly surprising they get more passengers. The half hourly service from Sowerby Bridge to Bradford reduced to hourly and then when the 2nd train returned, it was typically 12 minutes away. The services have been messed around quite a lot over the last few years. The only changes to services to Hebden Bridge have been additions.

I rarely travel to Sowerby Bridge any more *even though it's the closest station to where I'm going*- it's an extra third on the cost of a ticket from Keighley to Halifax and I'd likely only use it in one direction.
 

blackfive460

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- New daily service between York and Scarborough, 15 Mon-Sat and 13 Sunday services each direction (should be hourly).
Appears to have been quietly dropped.
Abandoned completely or just delayed until a later timetable change I wonder?
 

VT 390

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Appears to have been quietly dropped.
Abandoned completely or just delayed until a later timetable change I wonder?
What would the reasons for not introducing a second hourly Scarborough service even if it was just at peak times as it would be quite self contained and is one of the routes which could benefit most from extra services?
 

cle

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Also it could be any old units going spare, as it's a short and non-demanding route, supporting local journeys - with the TPE as the premium service.
 

158756

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What would the reasons for not introducing a second hourly Scarborough service even if it was just at peak times as it would be quite self contained and is one of the routes which could benefit most from extra services?

Lack of trains or staff presumably.
 

CaptainHaddock

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I'm pleased to see that Northern's Sheffield-Bridlington hourly service is being extended through to Scarborough from the December timetable change.
 

YorksDMU

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I'm pleased to see that Northern's Sheffield-Bridlington hourly service is being extended through to Scarborough from the December timetable change.

I’m pleased about that too, for it restores the timetable back to nearly how it was before the May timetable change. I’m just hoping against hope we have the 170’s working it, but if not then maybe 158’s on it. Time will tell I guess.
 

Mathew S

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Selfishly, have to say I'm pleased to see the hourly direct service to/from Manchester Vic restored to the Kirkby line from December.

However, on the Atherton line, I see there is no ~0855 service towards Leeds from Wigan. I'm thinking (hoping) it will appear some time before December - seems odd that it would be missing. What are people's thoughts?
 

Iskra

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What would the reasons for not introducing a second hourly Scarborough service even if it was just at peak times as it would be quite self contained and is one of the routes which could benefit most from extra services?

TP's intensive use for paths for crew training on this line could be one of the issues?
 

Bovverboy

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However, on the Atherton line, I see there is no ~0855 service towards Leeds from Wigan. I'm thinking (hoping) it will appear some time before December - seems odd that it would be missing. What are people's thoughts?

There's an 0838 arrival into Wallgate ex-Leeds, it goes up to the Down Siding to reverse, and is back in P2 at Wallgate 0854, no further trace. That must form the Leeds departure. It should have been loaded long before now, of course.
 

Mathew S

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There's an 0838 arrival into Wallgate ex-Leeds, it goes up to the Down Siding to reverse, and is back in P2 at Wallgate 0854, no further trace. That must form the Leeds departure. It should have been loaded long before now, of course.
Thanks for that. I hadn't thought to look for the inbound service :oops:
 

Jonny

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Appears to have been quietly dropped.
Abandoned completely or just delayed until a later timetable change I wonder?

What would the reasons for not introducing a second hourly Scarborough service even if it was just at peak times as it would be quite self contained and is one of the routes which could benefit most from extra services?

TP's intensive use for paths for crew training on this line could be one of the issues?

With the issues around new/refurbished rolling stock arriving late franchise-wide at Northern, perhaps a wet-lease (i.e. with crew) TPE train, most likely some single-formation Class 185s would be the only possibility come the timetable change date. I can't see where the otherwise spare 185 crews are going to come from without TPE running the training programs. And that's assuming that there are enough crews; other posts on this forum imply otherwise.
 
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I'm told it's due to lack of stock for Scarborough and therefore delayed until May.
Bridlington gets trains to York via Hull at xx00 and Sheffield at xx39 - not ideal as clock face but it does help with pathing if things go wrong due to the long sections after Beverley. Timings for connections at Scarborough are much more robust.

I wonder if the York service will become York to York via Hull in May.
 

clagmonster

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I suspect that the York - Scarborough will remain self contained as it will then avoid conflict with the ECML.
 

Kite159

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I suspect that the York - Scarborough will remain self contained as it will then avoid conflict with the ECML.

Making use of that handy bay platform at York (P2). At a guess an hourly shuttle will require 2 units going backwards & forward, unless there is some interworking with services from the Hull direction.
 

yorkguy

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https://www.minsterfm.com/news/local/2971687/new-train-service-for-malton-and-norton-delayed/
Now being officially reported that the new York-Malton-Scarborough Northern service has been postponed until next year. This will be a disappointment to regular users like me who can face service gaps of well over an hour when one train is cancelled and the following one is late. The traffic protestors in Malton will be cheering, however, as they are predicting carnage at the doubling of the level crossing closures in the town
 
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