Brighton & Hove/Metrobus to introduce tap in/tap out

radamfi · 2 Sep 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
TB have clearly looked at tap in/tap out and their CBA suggests that there is some tangible benefit. Everyone else have a different opinion.

Looks like Brighton & Hove and Metrobus share the same opinion as Trent Barton, despite introducing contactless for buying paper tickets less than a year ago:

https://www.buses.co.uk/contactless-ticket-payments-and-tap-tap

https://www.metrobus.co.uk/contactless/

RailUK Forums

higthomas · 2 Sep 2019

I like the idea of tap in/out. Seems like the best solution to me.

Flinn Reed · 2 Sep 2019

I think a similar tap in/tap out system could work well in London, but with touching out being option, with a new type of reader introduced (similar to the pink readers at some TFL stations).

These would be placed at the rear/exit doors on every bus, with the intention of improving the fares of journeys involving changes. This would replace the hopper fare, with users touching out when alighting a bus, given a fixed period of time to board another. This would help where passengers might make an initial journey of over an hour, before switching buses for a shorter journey to reach a destination.

This system could also help integrate bus fares with journeys on the train network. Many passengers needing to travel by tube/rail in London do not live close to a station and rely on a bus to get to one, adding £1.50 to the fare each time. Instead, passengers could tap out from a bus, with a period of time in which they must tap in at a train station, charging an 'add-on' fare of about 50p-£1.

This system could also prevent fare evaders in certain situations. For example, with the free travel zone in Heathrow, passengers would need to touch in and out, with the fare refunded if both stops are within the zone.

simple simon · 4 Sep 2019

I would rather not be tapping out... its enough to have my Oystercard in my hand for boarding, getting it out to alight will be unwelcome. A sharp eyed thief will benefit tremendously from snatching cards from passenger's hands immediately after they have alighted.

PeterC · 5 Sep 2019

simple simon said:
I would rather not be tapping out... its enough to have my Oystercard in my hand for boarding, getting it out to alight will be unwelcome. A sharp eyed thief will benefit tremendously from snatching cards from passenger's hands immediately after they have alighted.

One reason why I use Oyster, with only a few pounts of PAYG credit, rather than contactless on the tube.

ashworth · 5 Sep 2019

PeterC said:
One reason why I use Oyster, with only a few pounts of PAYG credit, rather than contactless on the tube.

Exactly the same here when I’m in London. I think I’m just getting old and belong to a different generation. A bank card has always been something that I kept very securely tucked away in my wallet. I am beginning to get used to paying using contactless in shops but even now I always pay cash if it’s less than £10. I find myself looking in amazement when in London to see how people flash their bank cards around when entering and exiting the tube. I just wouldn’t dare for fear of losing it or having it stolen.

radamfi · 5 Sep 2019

PeterC said:
One reason why I use Oyster, with only a few pounts of PAYG credit, rather than contactless on the tube.

Stolen cards can be replaced free of charge with fraudulent transactions refunded. Inconvenience in the meantime, mitigated if you carry a spare card.

Oyster cards mean a penalty fare or even criminal record if you forget to touch in. Worst case scenario (except on the bus) with a bank card is a maximum fare.

So which is less risky?

PeterC · 5 Sep 2019

radamfi said:
Stolen cards can be replaced free of charge with fraudulent transactions refunded. Inconvenience in the meantime, mitigated if you carry a spare card.

Oyster cards mean a penalty fare or even criminal record if you forget to touch in. Worst case scenario (except on the bus) with a bank card is a maximum fare.

So which is less risky?

I don't forget to touch in!

Flying Snail · 6 Sep 2019

radamfi said:
Oyster cards mean a penalty fare or even criminal record if you forget to touch in. Worst case scenario (except on the bus) with a bank card is a maximum fare.

So which is less risky?

There is zero logic to that. The same penalties apply for not touching in with contactless, never mind the fact that if you have either nicked you are going to be in no position to forget to to touch in with a card you no longer possess.

radamfi · 6 Sep 2019

Flying Snail said:
There is zero logic to that. The same penalties apply for not touching in with contactless, never mind the fact that if you have either nicked you are going to be in no position to forget to to touch in with a card you no longer possess.

He was worried about having the card stolen when you touch out so you would have the card during the on train inspection, and ideally you should have a back up card anyway.

You don't get a penalty fare when you have an on train inspection because the card does not store the information, just a maximum fare. There can only be an issue if the card is blocked.

radamfi · 6 Sep 2019

What is notable is that they don't appear to be introducing tap in/tap out using their existing Key smartcards.

mattdickinson · 7 Sep 2019

radamfi said:
What is notable is that they don't appear to be introducing tap in/tap out using their existing Key smartcards.

There is no PAYG product on the Key, so it's not needed. If GTR extended Keygo beyond the PlusBus areas it would be required.

radamfi · 7 Sep 2019

mattdickinson said:
There is no PAYG product on the Key, so it's not needed. If GTR extended Keygo beyond the PlusBus areas it would be required.

But they could introduce one, along the lines of Oyster PAYG. They seem not to be interested in doing so.

Jona26 · 18 Sep 2019

This seems to have gone live now. I heard announcements on Metrobus routes 2 and 281 today reminding passengers to "tap off"!! if using contactless pay as you go and there are scrolling messages on the bus stop PIS screens.

Antman · 19 Sep 2019

Flinn Reed said:
I think a similar tap in/tap out system could work well in London, but with touching out being option, with a new type of reader introduced (similar to the pink readers at some TFL stations).

These would be placed at the rear/exit doors on every bus, with the intention of improving the fares of journeys involving changes. This would replace the hopper fare, with users touching out when alighting a bus, given a fixed period of time to board another. This would help where passengers might make an initial journey of over an hour, before switching buses for a shorter journey to reach a destination.

This system could also help integrate bus fares with journeys on the train network. Many passengers needing to travel by tube/rail in London do not live close to a station and rely on a bus to get to one, adding £1.50 to the fare each time. Instead, passengers could tap out from a bus, with a period of time in which they must tap in at a train station, charging an 'add-on' fare of about 50p-£1.

This system could also prevent fare evaders in certain situations. For example, with the free travel zone in Heathrow, passengers would need to touch in and out, with the fare refunded if both stops are within the zone.

I don't see that idea working at all I'm afraid and far from preventing fare evasion surely it will encourage it? What is to stop somebody touching out at the centre doors and staying on the bus for a free journey?

Jona26 · 19 Sep 2019

Pluto said:
I don't see that idea working at all I'm afraid and far from preventing fare evasion surely it will encourage it? What is to stop somebody touching out at the centre doors and staying on the bus for a free journey?

Nothing I suppose - but what's to stop someone buying a short hop paper ticket and staying on past its validity?

I'm sure the costs of potential fare evasion will have been taken into account for the project costs.

I've never seen revenue inspectors on Metrobus despite using several of their buses nearly every day. Do they exist?

I used to see them quite regularly on Arriva services in North Wales.

Antman · 19 Sep 2019

Jona26 said:
Nothing I suppose - but what's to stop someone buying a short hop paper ticket and staying on past its validity?

I'm sure the costs of potential fare evasion will have been taken into account for the project costs.

I've never seen revenue inspectors on Metrobus despite using several of their buses nearly every day. Do they exist?

I used to see them quite regularly on Arriva services in North Wales.

I was referring to the suggestion that this system be used in London on two door buses. Obviously on single door buses the driver would notice if somebody touched out and remained on the bus. I've never seen revenue inspectors on Metrobus either.

yorkie · 19 Sep 2019

Flying Snail said:
There is zero logic to that. The same penalties apply for not touching in with contactless, never mind the fact that if you have either nicked you are going to be in no position to forget to to touch in with a card you no longer possess.

This is not true. The original post was logical and correct.

yorkie · 19 Sep 2019

PeterC said:
I don't forget to touch in!

So easy to make this claim. Have you made a lot of journeys using unfamiliar stations, sometimes using paper and sometimes PAYG? I challenge you to do so and guarantee you will never forget.

Hophead · 19 Sep 2019

Pluto said:
I was referring to the suggestion that this system be used in London on two door buses. Obviously on single door buses the driver would notice if somebody touched out and remained on the bus. I've never seen revenue inspectors on Metrobus either.

They have 2-door buses in Brighton too (with more on the way). I would hope that a tap-out within a few seconds of a tap-in would be identified as potentially fraudulent and be annulled at the end of the day, with a maximum fare for the journey applied.

yorkie · 19 Sep 2019

Hophead said:
They have 2-door buses in Brighton too (with more on the way). I would hope that a tap-out within a few seconds of a tap-in would be identified as potentially fraudulent and be annulled at the end of the day, with a maximum fare for the journey applied.

What if someone isnt sure if their tap in registered? Would you have separate tap out readers?

Hophead · 19 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
What if someone isnt sure if their tap in registered? Would you have separate tap out readers?

At the exit door, yes. Not sure what is proposed on single-door vehicles (and I didn't pay much attention when I was in town a few weeks ago). I think, though, that the driver might just spot someone wandering up for a tap and not alighting.

Bletchleyite · 19 Sep 2019

Hophead said:
At the exit door, yes. Not sure what is proposed on single-door vehicles (and I didn't pay much attention when I was in town a few weeks ago). I think, though, that the driver might just spot someone wandering up for a tap and not alighting.

If I was designing it, for a single door bus I would have the tap-in reader coloured green and mounted on the ticket machine, and the tap-out reader coloured red and mounted on the grab pole to the left of the door when exiting. That way the one to use is always on the left, and it also follows how people board and alight single-door buses - boarding towards the driver, alighting towards the door.

PeterC · 19 Sep 2019

yorkie said:
So easy to make this claim. Have you made a lot of journeys using unfamiliar stations, sometimes using paper and sometimes PAYG? I challenge you to do so and guarantee you will never forget.

I have, on one occasion in the days of paper travelcards, forgotten that my destination was the first stop outside zone 6 but as somebody who does make a lot of journeys all around London, and have used PAYG regularly since its introduction, I expect there to be a reader and look for it. Never had a problem yet although the DLR system of hiding readers away from the main passenger flow can be a bit challeging at times.

ag51ruk · 19 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
If I was designing it, for a single door bus I would have the tap-in reader coloured green and mounted on the ticket machine, and the tap-out reader coloured red and mounted on the grab pole to the left of the door when exiting. That way the one to use is always on the left, and it also follows how people board and alight single-door buses - boarding towards the driver, alighting towards the door.

Which is how Trent's Mango has always worked - but I understand when they introduce Ticketer machines next month the separate tap out reader will be removed and you will use the main ticket machine to tap out as well.

I use buses in Singapore and Sydney a lot, both of which which need you to tap out and mostly use two (or three) door buses. The readers at the rear doors are only active at bus stops.

Bletchleyite · 19 Sep 2019

ag51ruk said:
Which is how Trent's Mango has always worked - but I understand when they introduce Ticketer machines next month the separate tap out reader will be removed and you will use the main ticket machine to tap out as well.

That's going to cause trouble. On most buses, people are already starting to board and pay fares as others alight, which will cause a flow conflict around the driver's area and increase dwell times.

yorkie · 19 Sep 2019

It's possible for anyone to make a mistake; I have forgotten to tap in and out at Wembley stadium before. As I used contactless I didn't get issued with a Penalty Fare at Marylebone, which is a very expensive fare which Chiltern deem appropriate for people who have made a mistake under certain circumstances, including the exact circumstance I would have been had I not been using Contactless.

radamfi · 19 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
If I was designing it, for a single door bus I would have the tap-in reader coloured green and mounted on the ticket machine, and the tap-out reader coloured red and mounted on the grab pole to the left of the door when exiting. That way the one to use is always on the left, and it also follows how people board and alight single-door buses - boarding towards the driver, alighting towards the door.

Just been on a Metrobus single door bus just to try out the contactless and the touch out reader is precisely in that location. The tap in reader is on the ticket machine and is the same reader used for smartcards and for buying paper tickets by contactless.

radamfi · 19 Sep 2019

ag51ruk said:
The readers at the rear doors are only active at bus stops.

I suppose there is a revenue protection argument here but it is better for dwell times if you allow people to touch out before that. The latest Dutch smartcard readers now tell you the name of the next stop (indicating that you are would be paying to that stop if you touched out at that moment) as soon as the bus leaves the previous stop and they encourage you to touch out anytime after leaving the previous stop.

Antman · 19 Sep 2019

Hophead said:
They have 2-door buses in Brighton too (with more on the way). I would hope that a tap-out within a few seconds of a tap-in would be identified as potentially fraudulent and be annulled at the end of the day, with a maximum fare for the journey applied.

How would the system be able to differentiate between somebody boarding and quite legitimately getting off at the next stop and and somebody tapping out but staying on the bus? This would be unworkable in London and unnecessary, the current flat fare system is ok as it is.

Brighton & Hove/Metrobus to introduce tap in/tap out

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