• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

HS2 Review ongoing

Status
Not open for further replies.

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,707
It releases quite a lot of carbon dioxide per tonne cement clinker yes.
But the tonnages consumed in a developed economy are rather small.

It is also a stream well suited to capture and reuse or storage, compared to power plant consumption.
Note how small the EU segment of that emissions curve is - even though the EU has a population of 500 million near first world people.

You only expend cement once essentailly.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
2,130
Do you have a route alignment and budget for this? Does it offer the same BCR as the current HS2 plan? (Hint: no, and no)
As for an alignment,yes. It's simple,cancel HS2 from Old Oak Common to Euston with provision for future extension if needed. Build Old Oak Common with connecting surface lines at the end to the WCML and GWML. As OOK, is already underground I believe, there is no additional expenditure incurred on OOC. Build HS2 Phase 1 from London to Birmingham entirely in tunnel except for areas where it follows an existing or current railway alignment/surrounding railway land where it shall be above ground with landscaping to mitigate noise and light pollution issues for the local residents and environment. Build HS2 Phase 2, future projected extensions to Scotland and all future separate HS lines including HS3/NPR and,in the long-term, a high speed line paralleling the ECML, to the same specifications. Cost-benefit ratio is irrelevant as the cost of such HS lines could be offset against a reduction in carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gas emissions induced due to modal shift from more heavily greenhouse-gas emitting modes of transport such as private car and air to high-speed rail.
 

The Nomad

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2018
Messages
44
Reducing carbon emissions is important but blight of the Chilterns AONB is unacceptable.Except for the parts that HS2 is on the former alignment of the GCR main line, it should be in tunnel.
So you're saying that they can't build on new bits of land so that it takes the straightest path, but it's okay to build on land where a previous line once was? The argument gymnastics is impressive.

It's the same argument as NIMBYs at the edge of a town are opposed to new houses being built next to them because that's building on the greenbelt, smugly ignoring that their houses was probably built on greenbelt 20 or 50 years ago. But that's okay, because it's already built. And if it's already built, it's part of what makes Britain Great so needs to be protected.
 

The Nomad

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2018
Messages
44
You know, of course, that HS2 destroys acres of ancient woodland, threatens historic trees and demolishes peoples houses.
And you know that HS2 will transplant all that soil to a suitable site as near as possible, plant news trees in it and then plant 4ha of new trees for each 1ha of trees removed?
 

Domeyhead

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2009
Messages
386
Location
The South
I don't deny it's not justified passenger-wise,just,if we're spending this much on HS2 already, let's do it properly and build the whole lot in tunnel apart from the stations and if that means cutting it back to OOC and postponing the Birmingham-Manchester of Phase 2a with provision for future building as this corridor is already pretty well served by classic rail, then that's a price worse paying. The environment is what I care about and that must be protected at all costs. You could argue HS2 will reduce emissions by a large amount but it doesn't have to be at the expense of the rest of the environment.
If it's the environment you care about then I'm surprised you haven'd fact checked the actual quantities, when according to Ian Walmsley the actual amount of ancient woodland to be destroyed by HS2 Phase 1 is less than 10 hectares - say one average sized field, which is a lot less than many housing and road schemes which do not attract the same Chiltern based Nimby hostility. Building the entire length in tunnel will push costs up even more for no environmental benefit - unless you also agree to bury the M40 as well.
 

Domeyhead

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2009
Messages
386
Location
The South
That's not the point. Any greenfield or country land loss is unacceptable. If it was brownfield land mixed with tunnel, then that would be fine, but it isn't. To prevent loss of greenfield land, the railway should be built in tunnel. Former railway alignment however I would describe as brownfield land, so some of the ex-GCR parts of the current route around Calvert could stay,maybe as a break between two tunnels.
Yes it is "acceptable". That silly dogmatic approach in a dynamic economy is not only unnecessary but unworkable. You cannot just blow a whistle and stop the evolution of our landscape as of right now. The world we see is not how it was 100 1,000 or 10,000 years ago and unless you propose euthanising the population back to middle ages levels you can't expect our requirements to stand still either.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
So you're saying that they can't build on new bits of land so that it takes the straightest path, but it's okay to build on land where a previous line once was? The argument gymnastics is impressive.

It's the same argument as NIMBYs at the edge of a town are opposed to new houses being built next to them because that's building on the greenbelt, smugly ignoring that their houses was probably built on greenbelt 20 or 50 years ago. But that's okay, because it's already built. And if it's already built, it's part of what makes Britain Great so needs to be protected.

Agreed - nobody seems worried about the trees cut down by potentially re-opening something like Skipton - Colne or Aberystwyth - Carmarthen... despite "young" trees working harder than old trees (and therefore being better environmentally)... it's just another example of the double standards when it comes to HS2 (a new alignment) compared to reopening some old failed Victorian route.
 

33Hz

Member
Joined
2 Dec 2010
Messages
513
That's an interesting question. Even if we remained in the European Union, would HS2 be considered a TEN-T route (given that the link to HS1, and therefore the wider European network, was dropped)?

Don't see why not. They fund plenty of other high speed lines in TEN-T corridors that don't have a direct connection to the next leg.
 

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
6,096
Location
Surrey
Putting aside the pro/cons of HS2 one thing that must be rapidly reassessed is that NO more capacity is eroded at Euston during construction. WCML is now going to have to carry the burden for at least another decade and reduced capacity isnt going to inspire people to use the routes if they are jammed in like sardines. Also the Pendos should all be lengthened to 11 coaches and reassessment that WMT cant be allowed to suck capacity off the Fast lines. Furthermore a policy decision that promotes electric haulage of freight to both improve point to point timings and recovery from TSR and service perturbation to keeps the Slows flowing
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,390
Putting aside the pro/cons of HS2 one thing that must be rapidly reassessed is that NO more capacity is eroded at Euston during construction. WCML is now going to have to carry the burden for at least another decade and reduced capacity isnt going to inspire people to use the routes if they are jammed in like sardines. Also the Pendos should all be lengthened to 11 coaches and reassessment that WMT cant be allowed to suck capacity off the Fast lines. Furthermore a policy decision that promotes electric haulage of freight to both improve point to point timings and recovery from TSR and service perturbation to keeps the Slows flowing
The opportunity for more Pendo lenghtening as now passes due to crash reg changes.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,420
If HS2 was to be built entirely in tunnel then faced with the choice of HS2 taking an hour to London and the WCML taking 90 minutes I would opt for the latter. Can think of few things worse than hurtling through a tube at 200mph for an hour!
 

PR1Berske

Established Member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
3,025
So we shouldn't have Platforms 15/16 at Manchester Picc since that requires demolition of properties?
I've repeated many times on this forum that my opinion on p15/16 has changed. I was against it when it threatened to demolish an historic pub. Now that the pub is secured, I'm in favour.

Further, there is a demonstrable case for p15/16. There is no demonstrable case for HS2.
 

jfowkes

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2017
Messages
884
Further, there is a demonstrable case for p15/16. There is no demonstrable case for HS2.

You can't deny the passenger figures, surely? Even if you don't think HS2 is the right solution, you must see that there is a case for increasing capacity along the WCML corridor?
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
I've repeated many times on this forum that my opinion on p15/16 has changed. I was against it when it threatened to demolish an historic pub. Now that the pub is secured, I'm in favour.

Further, there is a demonstrable case for p15/16. There is no demonstrable case for HS2.

Actually back in reality, there is a business case for HS2 just as there is for platforms 15/16, they just serve different purposes ie the platforms only serve to relieve capacity issues at the bottleneck that is Manchester Piccadilly only noting it does not do anything about platform capacity at other major stations while HS2 frees up capacity not only on the WCML but also on the ECML and MML to a degree.
 

Domeyhead

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2009
Messages
386
Location
The South
I've repeated many times on this forum that my opinion on p15/16 has changed. I was against it when it threatened to demolish an historic pub. Now that the pub is secured, I'm in favour.

Further, there is a demonstrable case for p15/16. There is no demonstrable case for HS2.
Yes there is a demonstrable case for HS2, but it does help to read it rather than deny its existence. https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/the-strategic-case-for-hs2. If you want an "independent" view (although it's strange that people against HS2 regard groups with names like "StopHS2" as being independent!) you can try this. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-financial-benefit-controversy-a8937936.html
 

PR1Berske

Established Member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
3,025
You can't deny the passenger figures, surely? Even if you don't think HS2 is the right solution, you must see that there is a case for increasing capacity along the WCML corridor?
It's only the southern part of the corridor; even that is disputed; if it is a problem, just build new platforms and/or stop trains at other places other than Euston. Very easy.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
15,933
It's only the southern part of the corridor; even that is disputed; if it is a problem, just build new platforms and/or stop trains at other places other than Euston. Very easy.
How does adding new platforms increase capacity when you cannot fit any more trains on the lines that get to them?
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,096
It's only the southern part of the corridor; even that is disputed; if it is a problem, just build new platforms and/or stop trains at other places other than Euston. Very easy.
Like a new line to an additional terminus... somewhere like OOC, perhaps? I wonder how we could do that, or how we could then maximise the number of trains feeding in to the 2 termini, when the current lines are ftb?
 

matacaster

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2013
Messages
1,602
I can see that if HS2 phase1 is built before anything in the north (phase2 / NPR) because it's fairly spade ready, then it is likely to go way over even the latest budget and the stuff in the north will get canned. The reason it's likely to go even more over budget is they nearly always discover things that weren't apparent or were simply missed. Vast sums will be spent on Euston etc and there will be no money left.

A 100mph Birmingham to London commuter tunnel would likely be cheaper as virtually no land take and it's separate from other rail systems.
 
Last edited:

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
I've repeated many times on this forum that my opinion on p15/16 has changed. I was against it when it threatened to demolish an historic pub. Now that the pub is secured, I'm in favour.

Further, there is a demonstrable case for p15/16

We don't need platforms fifteen and sixteen at Piccadilly - we could solve all the problems with magic signals and clevererer diagramming.

And anyway, we'd be better spending the money on broadband. Or nurses. Or planting trees.

And we could just terminate lots of services at Salford and Ardwick and Mauldeth Road instead of running them into central Manchester where people are wanting to travel to.

And platforms fifteen and sixteen will do nothing for people in Norwich/ Inverness/ Plymouth, so are A Bad Thing.

(etc :lol:)
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Don't forget longer trains, we shouldn't have to be just limited to current train lengths.

Not to mention we should run 16 car trains on the current infrastructure without the expensive cost of resiting equipment or platform extensions by just using SDO.

All of which by the way have been explained why it’s difficult if not too hard to do.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
Two (possibly three) more magical words: double-decker trains.

The loading gauge prohibits it tho so unlikely, HS2 if they didn’t have to run on the classic network could be double decker trains.
 

The Nomad

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2018
Messages
44
The loading gauge prohibits it tho so unlikely, HS2 if they didn’t have to run on the classic network could be double decker trains.
Sorry, I thought everyone was being facetious?! Must find that irony punctuation mark on my keyboard...
 

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
2,130
Yes it is "acceptable". That silly dogmatic approach in a dynamic economy is not only unnecessary but unworkable. You cannot just blow a whistle and stop the evolution of our landscape as of right now. The world we see is not how it was 100 1,000 or 10,000 years ago and unless you propose euthanising the population back to middle ages levels you can't expect our requirements to stand still either.
We can use more of the large supply of brownfield land we have-we've already gone too far ripping up our countryside with motorways and ribbon development-we have the chance to stop now.
 

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
2,130
If it's the environment you care about then I'm surprised you haven'd fact checked the actual quantities, when according to Ian Walmsley the actual amount of ancient woodland to be destroyed by HS2 Phase 1 is less than 10 hectares - say one average sized field, which is a lot less than many housing and road schemes which do not attract the same Chiltern based Nimby hostility. Building the entire length in tunnel will push costs up even more for no environmental benefit - unless you also agree to bury the M40 as well.
No environmental benefit-the destruction of lots of people's homes and woodlands and open countryside when there is an alternative. All the property that had to be bought can be sold now to fund it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top