• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 710 LO

Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Terry Tait

Member
Joined
31 Jul 2019
Messages
196
710 longitudinal seating will go down like a pint of yesterday's sick on the Chingford services.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,771
People honestly can't make the connection of "button not lit=button does nothing"? And that's not even getting into the issues with having a button able to light up red or green.
With 317s on the old pneumatic buttons, leaning on the button before the train has even stopped means the door opens immediately it is released if you're still pressing it.

Obviously using red/green to distinguish things is an awful idea when there's no physical separation between lights; road traffic lights get away with it because red is at the top and green the bottom.
 

ijmad

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2016
Messages
1,810
Location
UK
710 longitudinal seating will go down like a pint of yesterday's sick on the Chingford services.

Normally the switch from transverse to longitudinal seating is accompanied by promised capacity uplift to soften the blow, but it seems Chingford/Enfield/Cheshunt will be stuck at their current trains per hour for the foreseeable future.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
4,495
With 317s on the old pneumatic buttons, leaning on the button before the train has even stopped means the door opens immediately it is released if you're still pressing it.
That's what I always do on 317s. Works on Pacers/150s too.
 

Andrew1395

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2014
Messages
587
Location
Bushey
710 longitudinal seating will go down like a pint of yesterday's sick on the Chingford services.
Must admit when they replaced the 313s on the DC Lines out of Euston I thought the same, but most people much preferred the new trains. Will be interesting to see how these are received.
 

Ethano92

Member
Joined
26 Jun 2017
Messages
415
Location
London
Must admit when they replaced the 313s on the DC Lines out of Euston I thought the same, but most people much preferred the new trains. Will be interesting to see how these are received.

It would be better if they could deploy them during times air con is needed, I feel like that would, I guess you could say, manipulate people's perceptions of the trains and would likely lessen the complaints (if many) about longitudinal seats but I feel like these units will be ready and deployed during winter. Either way I'd say the passenger expericexp is much better on these units.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
Must admit when they replaced the 313s on the DC Lines out of Euston I thought the same, but most people much preferred the new trains. Will be interesting to see how these are received.

Having Bakerloo line services running on much of the same line, I guess people are more used to longitudinal seating!
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,267
You can get from Willesden to Gospel Oak via AC only - exit onto the Down Slow, reverse on Up & Down Goods 1 or 2, then the City Lines round to Kensal Green Jn. Some trains are already booked that way

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/F25206/2019/08/28/advanced

Didn’t the 710/2s have to take that route at first because ORR only approved AC operation to begin with? I tried to find it earlier in the thread without success, I’m sure it came up before somewhere...
 
Joined
31 May 2017
Messages
53
710 longitudinal seating will go down like a pint of yesterday's sick on the Chingford services.
Not necessarily. The peak-time Chingford services are often absolutely jam-packed. It's entirely possible people who are used to standing nose-to-armpit will welcome the return of their personal space...
 

CyrusWuff

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
3,944
Location
London
Longitudinal seating is perfectly adequate for the routes the 710s are planned to be deployed on. The maximum journey time is 50 minutes from Euston - Watford Junction (which very few people would actually do, given London Northwestern do it in 15 to 25 minutes), with the West Anglia routes and Gospel Oak - Barking all coming in at 30 to 40 minutes and most passengers only travelling for about half that time due to changing to or from London Underground services.

Compare that to the 1992 Tube Stock on the Central Line, which is also all longitudinal seating and has a maximum journey time of 85 minutes (Epping - West Ruislip)...again, a journey which very few people would actually undertake.

Having ridden a crush-loaded pair of 315s on more occasions than I care to recall, the extra standing room in the 710s will be appreciated, despite the reduction in seated capacity. YMMV, of course!
 

delticdave

Member
Joined
14 Apr 2017
Messages
449
Not necessarily. The peak-time Chingford services are often absolutely jam-packed. It's entirely possible people who are used to standing nose-to-armpit will welcome the return of their personal space...

I'm surprised that the Chingford service is so poor, 8-car trains @ 4-tph isn't very impressive.
I was around when the line was electrified, the off-peak service was 6-car trains @ 6-tph, & 9-car @ 9-tph in the peaks.
I'm sure that the Victoria Line took traffic away from BR, but commuting to the city would still be much quicker than using the tube.
 

ijmad

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2016
Messages
1,810
Location
UK
I'm surprised that the Chingford service is so poor, 8-car trains @ 4-tph isn't very impressive.
I was around when the line was electrified, the off-peak service was 6-car trains @ 6-tph, & 9-car @ 9-tph in the peaks.
I'm sure that the Victoria Line took traffic away from BR, but commuting to the city would still be much quicker than using the tube.

From what I gather, the issue now is available slots in to Liverpool Street, which may only be fixable with Crossrail 2 or similar taking more traffic away from its throat.
 

3141

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2012
Messages
1,771
Location
Whitchurch, Hampshire
Obviously using red/green to distinguish things is an awful idea when there's no physical separation between lights; road traffic lights get away with it because red is at the top and green the bottom.
I hadn't looked at this thread till today. You're absolutely right. I have a form of colour blindness and to me, the red and amber on traffic lights look fairly similar except that the amber one is brighter, while they both look different from the green one which I think is almost white. I can distinguish them knowing that the one at the top is red and the bottom one is green. But if a door button might be either red or green I probably wouldn't know which is which, especially if the shade of green was a deeper colour than traffic lights have. About 7% of males have some form of colour vision deficiency so I'm definitely not alone.
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,934
I hadn't looked at this thread till today. You're absolutely right. I have a form of colour blindness and to me, the red and amber on traffic lights look fairly similar except that the amber one is brighter, while they both look different from the green one which I think is almost white. I can distinguish them knowing that the one at the top is red and the bottom one is green. But if a door button might be either red or green I probably wouldn't know which is which, especially if the shade of green was a deeper colour than traffic lights have. About 7% of males have some form of colour vision deficiency so I'm definitely not alone.
So with black floors as well, which are known to cause some dementia sufferers to panic TfL aren't exactly doing well in taking into account potential disabilities!
 

Ethano92

Member
Joined
26 Jun 2017
Messages
415
Location
London
I hadn't looked at this thread till today. You're absolutely right. I have a form of colour blindness and to me, the red and amber on traffic lights look fairly similar except that the amber one is brighter, while they both look different from the green one which I think is almost white. I can distinguish them knowing that the one at the top is red and the bottom one is green. But if a door button might be either red or green I probably wouldn't know which is which, especially if the shade of green was a deeper colour than traffic lights have. About 7% of males have some form of colour vision deficiency so I'm definitely not alone.

I do fear this may come out rude so please know I mean no disrespect but isn't that why there are different tones for opening and closing doors, they're there to serve everybody including those with visual impairment and not just the totally blind out of those who are visually impaired. I do think it's a silly idea for the door open button to be flashing when the doors are closing especially since there is a door close button right beneath it, however.
 

Roger B

Member
Joined
16 Jun 2018
Messages
891
Location
Gatley
I have great difficulty distinguishing between several different colours - especially when similar shades of brightness. And whilst I am able to hear (albeit on a selective basis), how would I know whether the sound I'm hearing is indicative of the doors opening, closing or something else entirely - eg someone seeking attention because the toilet door won't stay shut / locked (as reported on another thread). Given the significant proportion of the population that struggle to distinguish between colours, perhaps greater than those restricted mobility - I'm surprised this hasn't been addressed, especially in conjunction with safe entry / egress into / from trains.
 

3141

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2012
Messages
1,771
Location
Whitchurch, Hampshire
I do fear this may come out rude so please know I mean no disrespect but isn't that why there are different tones for opening and closing doors, they're there to serve everybody including those with visual impairment and not just the totally blind out of those who are visually impaired. I do think it's a silly idea for the door open button to be flashing when the doors are closing especially since there is a door close button right beneath it, however.

I don't think it's rude, and actually I didn't know there are trains with two tones for the doors, one for opening and one for closing. The trains I mostly use have a tone only for doors closing. And I think that's all that's needed in normal use. We know that when a train makes a scheduled stop at a station the doors will open, and a special sound before that happens is unnecessary.

As a more general comment, I think the colour red is very widely understood as meaning danger, watch out, something is about to happen. There isn't an equivalent sound with the same degree of widespread meaning. There are various series of fairly high-pitched beeps (this lorry is reversing, these doors are about to close, your microwave has now finished cooking), but not a standard one.
 

Dstock7080

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2010
Messages
2,741
Location
West London
We know that when a train makes a scheduled stop at a station the doors will open, and a special sound before that happens is unnecessary.
.Except the many trains on the network where the doors are simply released at a station and require the passenger to push a button .
The tone is for visually impaired persons to know this has been done.
Having a tone on all trains standardise that experience.
 

supervc-10

Member
Joined
4 Mar 2012
Messages
701
.Except the many trains on the network where the doors are simply released at a station and require the passenger to push a button .
The tone is for visually impaired persons to know this has been done.
Having a tone on all trains standardise that experience.

And likewise, the lighting up of the buttons is for those with hearing impairments.

IMO they all need to work like the Manchester MetroLink trams- the button can be pressed at any time, and at the next stop the door will open (assuming it's that side that has the platform). Once pressed, it flashes to register that it's going to open. I would imagine that this can help speed up dwell times too, especially on commuter routes where passengers become quite familiar with the regular stock.
 

higthomas

Member
Joined
27 Nov 2012
Messages
1,125
From what I gather, the issue now is available slots in to Liverpool Street, which may only be fixable with Crossrail 2 or similar taking more traffic away from its throat.
I know they're on the other side of the station, but surely this must be helped by Crossrail 1 freeing up some slots. Shuffle things across?
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
I know they're on the other side of the station, but surely this must be helped by Crossrail 1 freeing up some slots. Shuffle things across?
Not really as one platform is lost, 4tph still into P16/17 and the released capacity going to GEML fast services.
The issue is Liverpool Street alone but all the way out to Bethnal Green.
 

Top