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Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

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Bovverboy

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Whether its 323s or 331s your getting a better deal than the trains they both replace

Only if Northern actually put them out as double sets.

319 = 300 seats (approx.)
323 = 284 seats
331/0 = 204 seats
331/1 = 284 seats
N.B. The seating capacity of the 323s will presumably reduce slightly when accessible toilets are fitted.
 
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Nymanic

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It remains to be seen. Manchester Airport/Hazel Grove to Blackpool services could possibly see double sets. Stopping services out of Liverpool could not without SDO or platform extensions, neither of which appear likely.

If I've read the sectional appendix correctly, some stations between Lime Street and Wigan are barely 80m. Even a 4-car 331 would need its SDO if ever used on the slow Wigan turns; doubled 323s would need the entire rear unit locked out.

Many peak and weekend services do need doubling, but my optimism remains far too cautious for me to believe it'll happen.
 

Bovverboy

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Only if Northern actually put them out as double sets.

Which they will do so

It remains to be seen, it isn't Northern's style to use bigger trains than they really need. Having said that, however many 323s might be arriving from WMT, Northern is going to finish up with more EMUs than it currently has, so it will be interesting to see what happens.
Replacement of 319s by two-car DMUs is a daily occurrence - including on routes which would appear to be poorly equipped to stand it, such as the Blackpool services. If Northern isn't comfortable with short-forming, why doesn't it substitute four-car DMU sets, rather than two-car, when necessary?
 

edwin_m

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There's no capacity to run more services, so doubling up is pretty much the only way the extra units are going to be used.
 

AMD

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Northern isn't comfortable with short-forming, why doesn't it substitute four-car DMU sets, rather than two-car, when necessary?
Because there aren't enough diesels to cover for electric shortages, as the units used are often pulled from another diagram which has two units as that is all that there is - in the case of Liverpool services it's the Cheshire lines that suffer when an electric goes - so it's 'better' to have two services running short rather than cancelling one.
 

Bovverboy

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If Northern isn't comfortable with short-forming, why doesn't it substitute four-car DMU sets, rather than two-car, when necessary?

Because there aren't enough diesels to cover for electric shortages

That answer was predictable enough, but here's the next question. If Northern hasn't enough DMUs to cover for EMU shortages (or, for that matter, DMU shortages), how come it's withdrawing Pacers? Is no train at all better than a Pacer?
 
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geoffk

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If electrification had been completed as intended (Lostock - Wigan, Windermere and Vic - Stalybridge) there would have been more than enough work for the extra emus.
 

edwin_m

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That answer was predictable enough, but here's the next question. If Northern hasn't enough DMUs to cover for EMU shortages (or, for that matter, DMU shortages), how come it's withdrawing Pacers? Is no train at all better than a Pacer?
The Pacers were intended to be replaced directly or indirectly by a cocktail of new 195s, cascaded 150s and some electrification (which would also increase overall capacity). The electrification isn't happening so they're getting 769s instead, but both those and the 195s are running late. The first 195s are now in service but it was said a couple of weeks ago that some Pacers will continue beyond the original December deadline.
 

Bovverboy

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That doesn't explain why Pacers are being withdrawn before their replacements are available.
 

td97

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If electrification had been completed as intended (Lostock - Wigan, Windermere and Vic - Stalybridge) there would have been more than enough work for the extra emus.
Maybe someone has been doing some forward thinking. The cascades aren't due until 2021
 

sprinterguy

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That doesn't explain why Pacers are being withdrawn before their replacements are available.
The Pacers aren't compliant with disability regulations after the end of this year, and there is additional public and political pressure to remove them from service when Northern have publicly promised, on several occasions, their withdrawal by the end of the year.

At this late stage I assume that Northern are fairly keen to be seen to be doing something about the Pacers before the year is out, and as an additional incentive probably don't want to be paying leasing costs on them any longer than they have to, now that the new trains are belatedly entering service (Though I'm unsure if any 142s have been returned to Angel Trains yet?).
 

RealTrains07

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The Pacers were intended to be replaced directly or indirectly by a cocktail of new 195s, cascaded 150s and some electrification (which would also increase overall capacity). The electrification isn't happening so they're getting 769s instead, but both those and the 195s are running late. The first 195s are now in service but it was said a couple of weeks ago that some Pacers will continue beyond the original December deadline.
The pacers being the class 144
 

Bovverboy

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That doesn't explain why Pacers are being withdrawn before their replacements are available.

The Pacers aren't compliant with disability regulations after the end of this year, and there is additional public and political pressure to remove them from service when Northern have publicly promised, on several occasions, their withdrawal by the end of the year.

At this late stage I assume that Northern are fairly keen to be seen to be doing something about the Pacers before the year is out, and as an additional incentive probably don't want to be paying leasing costs on them any longer than they have to, now that the new trains are belatedly entering service (Though I'm unsure if any 142s have been returned to Angel Trains yet?).

I appreciate all that, but it still doesn't really answer the question. Is the potential political capital to be gained by withdrawing Pacers more important than running fully-formed trains?

The pacers being the class 144

That the 144s were to be kept well into next year was announced a while ago, I think it's beginning to be accepted that some 142s will continue beyond the deadline, too.
 

AMD

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That doesn't explain why Pacers are being withdrawn before their replacements are available.
As it stands only one has been withdrawn so far, if anything it was a publicity move to confirm that the pacers are going.
 

AMD

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I think it's beginning to be accepted that some 142s will continue beyond the deadline, too.
The plan is that the 142s will still be gone by the end of 31st December, with 86 195/331 units in service by then - there is a considerable ramp up of the new units coming into service planned - 5 diagrams next week, with 21/10 & 11/11 & 15/12 being major dates in the introduction calendar.
 

bb21

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The pacer withdrawal programme has been discussed to death including the above questions so let's try and stay on topic as otherwise we risk running off with another side discussion. Thank you.
 

Jamesrob637

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Having travelled on 323s 4 times this week (Stoke return and Sandbach return) I can confirm that they are in need of a refit. Seats are ok but looking dated, and sometimes the windows don't close properly. However they are a massive improvement over 319s!
 

507 001

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234 at Wolverton...
 

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Xenophon PCDGS

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Having travelled on 323s 4 times this week (Stoke return and Sandbach return) I can confirm that they are in need of a refit. Seats are ok but looking dated, and sometimes the windows don't close properly. However they are a massive improvement over 319s!

I suppose the windows problem that you note above will be one that will be looked at as part of the upgrading works.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The later "template" PTE liveries (both GM and West Midlands) were dull IMO, especially as they were designed in the bright and vivid decade that was the 90s. I'd have liked to see a 323 in a variation of the orange and brown GMPTE colours though.
 

507 001

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Should leave 234 like this, loved that livery.

Agreed!

The later "template" PTE liveries (both GM and West Midlands) were dull IMO, especially as they were designed in the bright and vivid decade that was the 90s. I'd have liked to see a 323 in a variation of the orange and brown GMPTE colours though.

Dull?! Centro was bright green and yellow, it was anything but dull!
 

RealTrains07

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Agreed!



Dull?! Centro was bright green and yellow, it was anything but dull!
At least we already know what to expect with the northern refurbishment. I would say the seat covers are at least far from dull
 

323 Class

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I was looking where Wolverton was. Having found it on google maps, I was perplexed by how the units entered and exited the works back onto the main line.
I solved it eventually. F or those who are curious, see if you can find the path.
 
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