Because the evidence is flawed. Expensive yes , but other punishment doesn't work. Re offending rate can't really be measured because most low level criminals don't get caught or the police are too stretched or turn a blind eye , so it looks like they are rehabilitated . I have heard ex prisoners say they are not worried because prisons are lax and it's free roof and board. I have heard others say that they never want to go back. If someone isn't worried about prison, then they won't be worried about say community service. What happens if they don't turn up . Probably nothing as the probation service is stretched , but at worst they go to prison instead , give them a big fine , what if they refused to pay or the usual I am unemployed so I can pay a fiver a week. Some punishment , they must be laughing.
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Staff member assaulted at Manchester Piccadilly
- Thread starter Darandio
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R
RailUK Forums
Thank you.
Exactly.
There's is nothing 'far left' about wanting to see sentencing based on the best evidence available of what actually works. And I can assure you - from personal experience - that community sentences, properly delivered, have significant impacts on the lives of those who receive them.
Have you ever visited a prison? I have. They're horrific places. Perhaps if we spent more time creating a more equal society, there wouldn't be people for whom these vicious, dehumanising institutions were an improvement on anything they can hope to see on the outside.
All evidence is flawed; the real world is messy. The awkward truth, though, is that there is evidence that community rehabilitation is more effective than prison, yet I can find no evidence (and yes, I've tried) that prison is more effective than community rehabilitation (if you can find any, I'd be glad to read it). You're also right that reoffending rates are tricky to measure, but it's not impossible. Read the MoJ/ONS data I linked to in my previous post, and understand their methodology. Yes, there are limitations, but it's pretty good at what it sets out to do.
As for the state of the probation service, well, that's a whole other topic but I agree that it needs to be far better resourced than it is now; which would be a hell of a lot cheaper than Boris' proposed prison expansion. Of course, the fact that probation is achieving better outcomes than prison, despite being woefully underfunded is something to consider too.
Despite my earlier rant, I do agree with some of your points.
I agree that prison is pointless for many. It is effective at keeping very bad people out of the way of the public but does little to reduce re-offending.
Also, people being barred from careers for life because of a misdemeanour in their teens seems stupid.
I just get frustrated by those that seem to do what they like with impunity like the person in this case. I think that some people only change their behaviour if the penalty for getting caught is severe.
I agree that prison is pointless for many. It is effective at keeping very bad people out of the way of the public but does little to reduce re-offending.
Also, people being barred from careers for life because of a misdemeanour in their teens seems stupid.
I just get frustrated by those that seem to do what they like with impunity like the person in this case. I think that some people only change their behaviour if the penalty for getting caught is severe.
RSA BOB
Member
Here in South Africa its got so bad that the Black People now Kill their own people who they say did it, this is because the Police and the Courts are not doing their Job to their satisfaction.
Interesting to see much discussion of how the criminal should be handled, less so the victim.
Different system prevails here in the US, where criminal penalties are frequently less onerous than the civil suit that follows. The victim would rightly seek compensation for lost earnings, medical bills/counseling, legal fees and emotional distress - in this case, the total "bill" would be deep into five figures, recoverable through the courts if the criminal failed to pay up.
This way, criminals are on the hook for the true costs of their poor decisions. In contrast, I gather the UK continues to expect taxpayers (via the NHS) and shareholders (through lost employee time/productivity) to pick up that tab. Small wonder that behaviours don't change much...
Different system prevails here in the US, where criminal penalties are frequently less onerous than the civil suit that follows. The victim would rightly seek compensation for lost earnings, medical bills/counseling, legal fees and emotional distress - in this case, the total "bill" would be deep into five figures, recoverable through the courts if the criminal failed to pay up.
This way, criminals are on the hook for the true costs of their poor decisions. In contrast, I gather the UK continues to expect taxpayers (via the NHS) and shareholders (through lost employee time/productivity) to pick up that tab. Small wonder that behaviours don't change much...
Yes I have visited one , Woodhill in mk. This particular gentleman has previous convictions as posted up thread so how is the non custodial punishment working there then.
I have visited Woodhill in mk , I also know some ex cons .
Jonfun
Established Member
And a real life example darling, I've tried to kill myself because of crime that the loony left have let a criminal get away with. That is the real life impact that your stupid "cost/benefit ratio" approach to justice results in. I don't want someone who has sexually assaulted me "rehabilitated". I want them punished. And hard.
I'm sorry for your experience, and I wish you well, however punishment and rehabilitation are not mutually exclusive, nor should they be. We can't lock people up forever - quite apart from it being disproportionate it's also practically impossible - so we have to rehabilitate them, or at least try to. That means work, in the community, to make changes. It might be distasteful, it might be uncomfortable, but it is what it is.
Of course, better to prevent crimes happening in the first place, but that's another topic altogether.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
The idea of restorative justice is not a far left wing concept. People from across the political spectrum advocate for it.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
The Isle of Man isn’t even in the UK.
But it's a British crown dependency. The queen is head of state and their government acts on the advice of our minister's, which would then include the minister of justice. It's inhabitants are British citizens.
And anyway and back to the reasoning for prison v other re habilitation methods. In a reply to me it was suggested we aim for an equal society so people don't commit crime in the first place. I'm sorry but I don't agree with the philosophy. Where I live although not a great deal of trouble, but when I do see any , it isn't by people with nothing. It's quite often youngsters who want to be a gangster. They are wearing 100 pound trainer's and have 500 pound I phone's. Did the likes of Rolf Harris , Fiona onasanya , Jeffrey archer , Chris Huhne , Joey Barton , Boy George, go to prison because life treated them unequally. Doubtful as they are people with very decent careers , fame or wealth. Ian Wright actually claims his spell in prison changed him . As to this man who assaulted the lady at Man Picc, I will make a bold assumption. He didn't do it because life was unfair or unequal.
Can I suggest, then, that you read the following paper from the World Bank which explains how equality and crime rates are related, and how increasing equality decreases crime?
https://siteresources.worldbank.org/DEC/Resources/Crime&Inequality.pdf
There's also this paper from MIT / Harvard: https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/003465300559028
And pretty much any of the articles found with an internet search here: https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=crime rate inequality
It may not be a philosophy you like, but it is one that all the evidence supports.
And why do young people feel the need to get involved in gang culture? Precisely because they are disenfranchised by a society they see as unfair, and a world in which they feel they have little future. See this article by
Robert F. Hesketh, Lecturer in Criminal Justice at Liverpool John Moores University: https://theconversation.com/gang-cu...ple-but-social-mixing-offers-a-way-out-117518.
The reasons people commit crimes are complex, and it's not possible to say that one specific individual did one specific thing because of any one specific factor without having detailed knowledge of both the offender, and the incident. Neither of us have that knowledge of either the case to which this thread refers, nor any of the cases you list. However, there are always reasons. For many - of course not all - offenders, taking time to understand those reasons, and do something about them, means they won't offend again. That doesn't, of course, mean that their shouldn't be a consequence to their actions (though that consequence must always be in proportion to the criminality involved); I would contend, however, that common sense dictates that it is sensible to do what's necessary to prevent further offences being committed, which means understanding why they happened and doing something about that.
I don't know, and neither - I'm sure - do you, since I doubt either of us have a detailed knowledge of this person, and their circumstance. Based on the reporting in the MEN and elsewhere, it would seem, however, that he is suffering from some form of mental health problem, having himself been a victim of crime. So, let's deal with that and go from there.
As for effectiveness of prisons vs. probation, it's a proven fact that probation is more effective. I don't have time to rehash all the arguments I have already posted, so instead here is an article by Ian Cummins of Salford University who does a far more effective job of setting out the evidence than I would be able to at the moment:
https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-does-prison-really-work-19842.
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Show's nothing. Facts and figures, especially in this regard are flawed. Sitting in your university office isn't living in the real world. In the last couple of months, I have seen 5 low level drug deals and two people walk past a police officer, smoking a joint. I personally know of a few people who were burgled and were given a crime number and only got a visit from the police , several days after the offence. The people committing low level crime are not being dealt with , so don't show up on statistics. As for this equal world , what an excuse. A lot of these people have decent enough lives , but they don't want to live in a small house and work 9-5 or whatever. They want to be a singer an actor or a famous footballer , failing that a criminal. I will probably never get an equal chance to be any of them , but I don't commit crime , I accept it and do a proper job .
The plural of anecdote is not data, and you have provided no reasons to show why the statistics by people who's job it is to do that are flawed. It still seems to me you're putting ideology before evidence. That's fine and a perfectly valid opinion, but don't try to dress it up as anything else.
You mean anecdotal evidence is ignored.sitting in an office looking at figures , ok then. Example, when I was younger, the government used to make the unemployment rate look better by not including 16 year olds that left school , because they reasoned that they could of stayed in 6th form. I can't provide proof of what I see, as I don't wait around to be stabbed. But I see it and the statistician's don't.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
ah the result of Brexit shown clearly by @baz962 : we don't need experts and their information is less valid than my own inaccurate, biased information driven by an agenda and our favorite media outlet. Lovely.
It is fine to say we should lock more people up but the prisons are already full and massively under staffed. That leads to people being banged up for vast sections of day ( which I am sure you think is fine) but actually fuels criminal activity and recidivism.
I do wish the hang em' and flog em brigade were honest. Lets start with a simple one: How are you going to house all of these prisoners? How does the crime rate that you say is climbing stand against our existing prison population if, as you say, prison is the answer ( I know the next statement will be something about "holiday camps" or human rights or somesuch but can we try)?
Can we start with some honesty? it is easy to say that more and more people should be locked up. It is harder to say how that should be delivered.
BTW - I have been in many, many prisons from HMYOI to "Super max". Not just 1.
yes it is - because it isnt "data". It is "gut feel" and subject to bias and no scientific investigation.
It is fine to say we should lock more people up but the prisons are already full and massively under staffed. That leads to people being banged up for vast sections of day ( which I am sure you think is fine) but actually fuels criminal activity and recidivism.
I do wish the hang em' and flog em brigade were honest. Lets start with a simple one: How are you going to house all of these prisoners? How does the crime rate that you say is climbing stand against our existing prison population if, as you say, prison is the answer ( I know the next statement will be something about "holiday camps" or human rights or somesuch but can we try)?
Can we start with some honesty? it is easy to say that more and more people should be locked up. It is harder to say how that should be delivered.
BTW - I have been in many, many prisons from HMYOI to "Super max". Not just 1.
yes it is - because it isnt "data". It is "gut feel" and subject to bias and no scientific investigation.
Because it's nothing to do with just lock everyone up . The data is flawed, the people compiling it live in nice area's and don't have a clue about the real world. I'm not a lock them up and throw away the key merchant myself anyway , but in this case I think he personally should of. And I'm glad you brought up the bit about the way prison is , because that's why it fails. Prison doesn't fail just because it's prison , but because it's easy for the incarcerated. Awash with drug's , phone's etc and left to be brain washed by hardened career criminals. Prison reform is what we need for the one's that no other punishment will do and the other punishment for low level crime. And by the way it isn't gut feel , if you read my post properly I have seen 5 instances of dealing in last couple month's , saw two people walk past a copper smoking a joint . It's not gut feel when you see and smell it. And what media outfit , I have no agenda . I live in the real world and base things on what I see and know , not what I read . I don't buy newspapers and rarely watch the news . I have in past jobs and life known people on both sides . I knew someone personally that got a six stretch and spent all day playing pool , x box , watching TV for the first two year's and got every weekend out in year three and then out for good behaviour. Not exactly a deterrent is it.
Esker-pades
Established Member
How is the data flawed?
How do you know where the people compiling it live?
How do you define the "real world"?
Basing things on what you know isn't necessarily bad, but if one disreguards any proper data/evidence which doesn't reinforce your view then it is. IE: Your anecdote about your acquaintance who had a cushy time in prison is nothing compared to actual studies about what prison life is actually like.
Even though he is a real person in a real prison , that does make it real life . Anyway it is more than one or two , but I'm not about to compile a comprehensive list. Anyway I'm not saying the experts data isn't wrong on face value. I'm saying people are re offending , they just aren't getting caught and so it appears like they are re habilitated.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
So what you are saying is that if you live in a nice area your view is not valid, doubly so if you are an evil expert?
I agree. BTW I would happily lock up all kinds of criminals for ages. However Ii am honest about what that will cost. I am not sure others are.
But you don't look at WHY. The prisons are in such a state because funding has been cut so much I do agree reform is needed as is more funding ( in more than bricks and mortar) as I set out above
and smoking a joint. Really? There were people smoking a joint in the park near me yesterday! Personally I am not bothered. It isnt worth the time in filling in the paper work. ( and are we really saying we want to lock people up for smoking a joint? )
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