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Lack of free WiFi on London buses?

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radamfi

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Hardly a good advert for the franchise regime, is it? The disadvantages have taken longer to surface than with rail TOCs perhaps, partly because, as you say, most passengers couldn't give a fig about who runs the buses they use. I think in time all significant bus operation in London will be brought back 'in house' as it were, as has happened in other countries. So long as you don't get politicians trying to control day-to-day operations I can see significant advantages in this, though I accept there might be some downsides.

More passengers may not help the operators, but if they don't operate a high proportion of scheduled mileage or don't keep gaps between buses small, then there are financial implications. That is enough incentive to run as good service as possible.

Which countries have brought back operations in house?
 
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NLC1072

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Not sure why so many people seem to think Wi-Fi is the be all and end all, when I used it on buses before it was rubbish! my 4G phone signal is always faster and more reliable... and 5G is around the corner, which is about to make ANY Wi-Fi completely obsolete.
 

jellybaby

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5G is around the corner, which is about to make ANY Wi-Fi completely obsolete
It isn't. You will still be sharing bandwidth with how ever many other users. A local WiFi AP and a fixed connection will be better. In time the buses that have WiFi will switch to 5G backhaul and have the advantage of a larger externally mounted aerial.
 

matt_world2004

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Route 12 tri axle has provision for wifi in its ibus system I think they have it activated wifi was also trialled on rv1.
 

edwin_m

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Hardly a good advert for the franchise regime, is it? The disadvantages have taken longer to surface than with rail TOCs perhaps, partly because, as you say, most passengers couldn't give a fig about who runs the buses they use. I think in time all significant bus operation in London will be brought back 'in house' as it were, as has happened in other countries. So long as you don't get politicians trying to control day-to-day operations I can see significant advantages in this, though I accept there might be some downsides.
If TfL wanted wifi they could just specify it in their contracts - even as a retrofit it would be fairly straightforward and could probably be rolled out in a year or two. It would be to a defined quality standard and with a common network name not the plethora of different arrangements seen on buses elsewhere. But they would have to pay for it and they're not exactly flush at present.
 

matt_world2004

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If TfL wanted wifi they could just specify it in their contracts - even as a retrofit it would be fairly straightforward and could probably be rolled out in a year or two. It would be to a defined quality standard and with a common network name not the plethora of different arrangements seen on buses elsewhere. But they would have to pay for it and they're not exactly flush at present.

The value of the data in messuring passenger loadings using wifi might make it worth it for tfl.
 

Mikey C

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If TfL wanted wifi they could just specify it in their contracts - even as a retrofit it would be fairly straightforward and could probably be rolled out in a year or two. It would be to a defined quality standard and with a common network name not the plethora of different arrangements seen on buses elsewhere. But they would have to pay for it and they're not exactly flush at present.
It'll be down to the next Mayor to specify it. If in the next election the successful mayoral candidate put it in their manifesto, it'll happen whether TfL like it or not!
 

edwin_m

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The value of the data in messuring passenger loadings using wifi might make it worth it for tfl.
They must already have boarding data via the touch-ins which are sent to the TfL back office for processing (excepting the probably very few passengers still using paper Travelcards). Getting actual loadings along the route would need either passenger weighing equipment (possible if the buses have air suspension) or some kind of counter at the centre exit door, as well as wifi.
 

jellybaby

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excepting the probably very few passengers still using paper Travelcards
Last time I had a paper Travelcard the driver pushed a pass button as I got on. Has that stopped?

If TfL wanted to they could count mobile phones on the bus using WiFi without needing working WiFi backhaul.
 

Mikey C

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Last time I had a paper Travelcard the driver pushed a pass button as I got on. Has that stopped?

I imagine they still do that, as they'll need to do something for logging freedom passes etc
 

matt_world2004

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They must already have boarding data via the touch-ins which are sent to the TfL back office for processing (excepting the probably very few passengers still using paper Travelcards). Getting actual loadings along the route would need either passenger weighing equipment (possible if the buses have air suspension) or some kind of counter at the centre exit door, as well as wifi.
Their data for predicting alightings from oyster data is terrible though.
 

Non Multi

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Last time I had a paper Travelcard the driver pushed a pass button as I got on. Has that stopped?

If TfL wanted to they could count mobile phones on the bus using WiFi without needing working WiFi backhaul.
Bought one last week as it was the cheapest option for my travel that day. Most of the bus drivers pressed a button.
 

Busaholic

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Bought one last week as it was the cheapest option for my travel that day. Most of the bus drivers pressed a button.
I have a concessionary pass issued by the county where I live. On London buses, some drivers press a button, some don't: the ones that don't tend not to show any sign that they've registered your presence. It's about 50:50 overall I reckon, with some routes and areas more likely to, and others where it's almost unknown.
 

Goldfish62

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I think in time all significant bus operation in London will be brought back 'in house' as it were, as has happened in other countries. So long as you don't get politicians trying to control day-to-day operations I can see significant advantages in this, though I accept there might be some downsides.
I don't see any sign of this happening any time soon. The London bus contracting regime is actually highly successful and there's a really mature working relationship between the operators and TfL that puts DfT Rail to shame. The last thing TfL wants to do is be involved in day-to-day operations. Remember East Thames Buses? Total embarrassment.
 

PeterC

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I have a concessionary pass issued by the county where I live. On London buses, some drivers press a button, some don't: the ones that don't tend not to show any sign that they've registered your presence. It's about 50:50 overall I reckon, with some routes and areas more likely to, and others where it's almost unknown.
Pretty much my experience as well.
 

Busaholic

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I don't see any sign of this happening any time soon. The London bus contracting regime is actually highly successful and there's a really mature working relationship between the operators and TfL that puts DfT Rail to shame. The last thing TfL wants to do is be involved in day-to-day operations. Remember East Thames Buses? Total embarrassment.
I don't see any sign of it happening soon, either, but edwin m is of the opinion that franchisees really don't want extra passengers, as they'd slow buses down and provide more scope for trouble, and, as he usually speaks good sense imo, I have to say that is a serious drawback to the system, as is the associated practice of 'control' exhibited from above on to individual buses, or whole routes, which is driving many passengers to despair and off the buses altogether. Almost my last trip on a London bus, when I had a very limited amount of time to spare, was on a 159 from Streatham Hill to Oxford Street, not that I ever made it through to there: 90 minutes after boarding the bus, and a totally unexplained diversion via the Elephant and Castle, we were unceremoniously booted off the bus in Lower Regent Street, again without prior warning, and too late to take advantage of a Hopper Fare for those so minded. The driver was curt, but I informed several passengers they were entitled to transfer tickets, which he ungraciously issued. For me, I decided the next time I wanted to get from Streatham Hill to Central London, it'd be the train, even though I'd have to pay as against free bus travel.

East Thames Buses was an 'operator of last resort' and, as such, was dealing mostly in problematic routes. Good strong bus management skills could ensure a successor was more successful, although I admit those skills are no longer evident within the TfL hierarchy, any more than they are in TOCs. That's what happens when you destroy an industry for ideological purposes!
 

jon0844

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Buses are surely the last places that need Wi-Fi given there's likely to be good 4G (and as time goes on good 5G) coverage that's available just about everywhere the buses go. Even tourists likely have some data available for roaming, and those that don't have plenty of establishments they can visit for free Wi-Fi, as well as (most likely) their hotel.

Wi-Fi is more useful underground and inside buildings where cellular isn't available to anyone.

For a start, if I use my phone then I'm sharing a much bigger amount of bandwidth than using a bus where it's rationed out to users and the base having the same speed (or possibly less speed) than I do. I have no idea what class of modem the bus systems have, but my phone has gigabit LTE support (and my 5G handset can support speeds of up to 2Gbps) and, my guess, is the bus likely doesn't have the very latest modem/antenna/codec support - even if it benefits from an external roof-mounted antenna.

I don't think the positioning of the antenna is really going to make a huge difference, and I bet there's a good chance of losing speed from the Wi-Fi connection that will be saturated in many streets from homes and offices using Wi-Fi on a pretty limited number of channels.
 

Goldfish62

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I don't see any sign of it happening soon, either, but edwin m is of the opinion that franchisees really don't want extra passengers, as they'd slow buses down and provide more scope for trouble, and, as he usually speaks good sense imo, I have to say that is a serious drawback to the system, as is the associated practice of 'control' exhibited from above on to individual buses, or whole routes, which is driving many passengers to despair and off the buses altogether. Almost my last trip on a London bus, when I had a very limited amount of time to spare, was on a 159 from Streatham Hill to Oxford Street, not that I ever made it through to there: 90 minutes after boarding the bus, and a totally unexplained diversion via the Elephant and Castle, we were unceremoniously booted off the bus in Lower Regent Street, again without prior warning, and too late to take advantage of a Hopper Fare for those so minded. The driver was curt, but I informed several passengers they were entitled to transfer tickets, which he ungraciously issued. For me, I decided the next time I wanted to get from Streatham Hill to Central London, it'd be the train, even though I'd have to pay as against free bus travel.

East Thames Buses was an 'operator of last resort' and, as such, was dealing mostly in problematic routes. Good strong bus management skills could ensure a successor was more successful, although I admit those skills are no longer evident within the TfL hierarchy, any more than they are in TOCs. That's what happens when you destroy an industry for ideological purposes!
As someone who has spent nearly all my working life in the London bus industry, I agree with nearly everything you say (ETB's routes were not a particularly problematic set), although I won't go any further off-topic.
 

Busaholic

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As someone who has spent nearly all my working life in the London bus industry, I agree with nearly everything you say (ETB's routes were not a particularly problematic set), although I won't go any further off-topic.
Problematic was probably the wrong word: I recognise the different circumstances in which ETB operated those routes, but the no. 1 seemed to be unpopular enough not to get any sensible tenders, so maybe that was considered problematic to the obvious candidate(s)! As you say, off topic though, so I'll shut up.
 

radamfi

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I don't see any sign of it happening soon, either, but edwin m is of the opinion that franchisees really don't want extra passengers, as they'd slow buses down and provide more scope for trouble, and, as he usually speaks good sense imo, I have to say that is a serious drawback to the system

There was a more direct incentive to carry more passengers under the net cost tendering system used originally. But the current system with reliability performance payments and automatic contract extensions when meeting the agreed standards seems to work better. You are worrying unnecessarily by the fact that they don't get paid per passenger. How can they deter passengers at the same time as meeting or exceeding performance targets?
 

traji00

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Problematic was probably the wrong word: I recognise the different circumstances in which ETB operated those routes, but the no. 1 seemed to be unpopular enough not to get any sensible tenders, so maybe that was considered problematic to the obvious candidate(s)! As you say, off topic though, so I'll shut up.

Route 1’s transfer to ETB in 2005 was for different reasons: they needed to vacate Ash Grove to make way for the 38’s bendy buses. The 128 & 150 were put out to tender with the 1 using the VWLs (it was up for tender anyway).

Back on topic, was there a trial to install wifi on the New Routemasters at some point? If there was, it was evidently not pursued?
 

Goldfish62

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Route 1’s transfer to ETB in 2005 was for different reasons: they needed to vacate Ash Grove to make way for the 38’s bendy buses. The 128 & 150 were put out to tender with the 1 using the VWLs (it was up for tender anyway).

Back on topic, was there a trial to install wifi on the New Routemasters at some point? If there was, it was evidently not pursued?
There was such a trial, but I never heard about it until it had finished and the claim was that minimal use was made of the WiFi.

The decision was taken not to adopt, but to instead install USB charging on all new buses, which has been implemented. A decision as to whether to retrofit existing buses has yet to be made, I believe.
 

AM9

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There was such a trial, but I never heard about it until it had finished and the claim was that minimal use was made of the WiFi.

The decision was taken not to adopt, but to instead install USB charging on all new buses, which has been implemented. A decision as to whether to retrofit existing buses has yet to be made, I believe.
I doubt that the disruption would make it worthwhile. TfL doesn't keep buses that long anyway.
 

Journeyman

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A number of transport operators are considering whether WiFi is more hassle than it's worth. The main issues affecting whether it's popular are the availability of a good mobile signal, and the amount of data people have at their disposal. Data prices on mobile contracts are plummeting. I now have unlimited 4G data for a very reasonable sum, and so I never use WiFi, unless there's no mobile signal available, and on your average London bus route, that isn't a problem. Many people will find themselves in the same position.

Swiss Railways decided never to provide WiFi, as the benefit to them outweighed the hassle of installing it. I really don't think it's a big selling point to most people now, certainly not sufficient to dictate the mode of transport they'll use. I've never chosen a particular mode or operator over another because one has WiFi and one doesn't.
 

edwin_m

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I think there's some merit in wifi on trains because the mobile signal can be interrupted in tunnels etc, always assuming they can engineer a wifi that doesn't have the same problem. Also its practicable to use a laptop on a train, and these don't usually have mobile built in although you can access it by personal hotspot on a phone. On a bus you're unlikely to be using a laptop and as mentioned the mobile signal should be more reliable particularly in urban areas.

However I was under the impression that most buses are now equipped with a communications package to support real time information, vehicle tracking and ticketing - and that wifi was a very cheap add-on to this.
 

radamfi

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Swiss Railways decided never to provide WiFi, as the benefit to them outweighed the hassle of installing it.

And Swiss Railways have mobile signal in tunnels, which is more important than having WiFi.
 

AM9

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I think there's some merit in wifi on trains because the mobile signal can be interrupted in tunnels etc, always assuming they can engineer a wifi that doesn't have the same problem. Also its practicable to use a laptop on a train, and these don't usually have mobile built in although you can access it by personal hotspot on a phone. On a bus you're unlikely to be using a laptop and as mentioned the mobile signal should be more reliable particularly in urban areas.

However I was under the impression that most buses are now equipped with a communications package to support real time information, vehicle tracking and ticketing - and that wifi was a very cheap add-on to this.
Tha bandwidth required to provide those services is far less than demanded by half a bus load of serial downloaders all demanding that they can download an entire movie during their 15 minute journey. The ticket machine has a link to send GPS data every few minutes/seconds and most drivers that I've seen talking back to base are using a regular mobile. Security CCTV records to on-board storage.
 

Goldfish62

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I doubt that the disruption would make it worthwhile. TfL doesn't keep buses that long anyway.
14 years is the projected life, with a refurbishment at seven years, or the nearest contract renewal/start date. Any retrofitting of USB ports would form part of the refurf spec.
 

Simon75

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Arriva North West have WiFi on there Mellor Stratas used on Northwich and Macclesfield town services (for a short distance seem a waste of time). They advertise on the windows Free WiFi
They do wander onto the the last 4 journeys on the 38 Crewe to Macclesfield

(Example, not my photo)
 

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