As per usual I travel from Ealing to Paddington on TFL service , quite often before 0930 ..... according to TFL info its free with my 60+ oyster. On 24 July 0750 service I arrive at barriers and am taken to one side and given a penalty notice by a very rude inspector..., despite my protests of using TFL . he didn't even have the decency to make me aware I was being recorded!! I thought the independent appeals service would obviously see their error.... NO!! 3 Appeals .... Independent of fairness then, I now don't know what to do now.... I feel very ripped off . Pay up ?? what about tomorrow when I repeat the journey.....I am likely not the only one .......Thanks GWR
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Distressed!! Incorrectly penalty fared by GWR
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krus_aragon
Established Member
I'm no expert on 60+ Oyster cards, but according to the map here it's only free between Ealing and Paddington after 09:30 on weekdays, as it's shown with a pink line.
If you have another source of information that says otherwise, please do link to it.
If you have another source of information that says otherwise, please do link to it.
If the journey was with TfL Rail then GWR were wrong to issue this.
GWR have been caught threatening passengers with prosecution on other occasions; their Paddington staff are frequently found to be rude. This is nothing new. But nothing changes; there is no organisation that can do anything about GWR's poor behaviour at Paddington.
The independent appeals people are clueless and are reportedly only paid £7 per case.
I'd contact London Travelwatch and the Ombudsman next. And your MP!
GWR have been caught threatening passengers with prosecution on other occasions; their Paddington staff are frequently found to be rude. This is nothing new. But nothing changes; there is no organisation that can do anything about GWR's poor behaviour at Paddington.
The independent appeals people are clueless and are reportedly only paid £7 per case.
I'd contact London Travelwatch and the Ombudsman next. And your MP!
krus_aragon
Established Member
Apologies, on going back it appears I misread the legend text in the map I linked to.
There is an 0750 service to Paddington : https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C23162/2019/09/09/advanced but it's a GWR service and not a TfL one. The 0745 and the 0759 services are TfL
No worries .. I been hitting a brick wall with this for weeks ... I think everyone is reading it that way at first glance ... including the inept IAS panel of lawyers etc.....
Thank you yorkie I will try your suggestions .... the MP might be a tad busy trying to get re-elected though
Thank you yorkie I will try your suggestions .... the MP might be a tad busy trying to get re-elected though
Yes I can confirm that on this date the 0746 departed EAL at 0750.
Are you writing to LTW, the Ombudsman and your MP? If you need any assistance with this feel free to ask.
matt_world2004
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Contact TfL explaining the situation they might have nore authority in reminding GwR of their obligations.
This is going to be fun when GwR staff start encountering freedom passes as far afield as reading.
This is going to be fun when GwR staff start encountering freedom passes as far afield as reading.
It's up to you if you pay it or not, but if you do pay it, you should get the money back.
If you don't, they will probably threaten you with prosecution, but you would win any case. And now you've mentioned it here I am sure GWR will drop it.
Would you be interested in talking about your case on the radio? If so I'll look into the possibility of arranging that.
If you don't, they will probably threaten you with prosecution, but you would win any case. And now you've mentioned it here I am sure GWR will drop it.
Would you be interested in talking about your case on the radio? If so I'll look into the possibility of arranging that.
VauxhallandI
Established Member
What's stopping the OP replying with a simple "Ok see you in court GWR"?
Nothing, though many people do not wish to go to court even though they know they'll win.
Exactly... what doesn't give confidence is things like the reply from TFL I have just received ..... Unfortunately we can't help because it is not allowed to travel on National rail before 0930..... aaaargh. Caught in an infinite loop of incompetence .... I also read on LTW that they are unable to help failed appeals ... MP .. yeah right .... So it looks like Pay Up .... you've been shafted ..... but they won't get me again.
WesternLancer
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My view would be to go to LTW, if they then can't resolve it (or fail to understand it) - then raise it with your London assembly member (TfL accountable to them I would think) AND MP - ask the Assembly member to intervene with respect to TfL procedures (and indeed LTW failure to investigate), ask the MP to raise the wider issue about the conduct of the Franchisee (answerable to DfT) with a transport Minister to intervene with the relevant part of the department that has responsibility for the Franchisee's conduct.
The point about the elected representatives is t get them to press the 'service delivery organisations' to administer things correctly.
thejuggler
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The TFL task monkey has probably met their KPI - complaint received and responded to in the correct time period with a stock answer.
Go back to TFL and raise a formal complaint against them as an organisation for failing in their duty.
Have the matter raised to someone who will read your complaint properly, investigate it properly and provide a response which addresses the matters you raise.
Go back to TFL and raise a formal complaint against them as an organisation for failing in their duty.
Have the matter raised to someone who will read your complaint properly, investigate it properly and provide a response which addresses the matters you raise.
I have been incensed by this thread as this was my local line for most of my life and if I had not retired to Dorset a few years ago this whole saga could easily have been me.
Because of this I sent a slight rant to LTW outlining this case and surprisingly received a reply from someone there requesting copies of the correspondence. I would be happy to forward their contact details if you wish to message me so you can send through copies of the paperwork and the extra details you have gained from on this forum.
I'm at risk of going off topic, but here goes!
£7 per case or not, you would expect the Independent Appeals Panel to have a modicum of understanding of what they were adjudicating on. This is the second time, as has been reported on these pages, they have got it completely wrong, this thread being the other example;
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-appeal-and-conditions-of-carriage-question.181511/
I'm sure that the good people who form the IAP are nice to old people and animals, but having looked at their pen pictures (offered on the IAP site) I can't help but wonder if as very senior, or strategic people, they have the right skills sets to get down to the nub of the detail of the issues being appealed.
https://www.appealservice.co.uk/IndependentAppealsPanel
jumble
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You may not know this but my understanding is that TFL's oyster helpline is outsourced
When ever I have had issues ( few and far between to be fair ) I have politly emailed the current MD of TFL and very politely if he would mind attending to the problem
The real TFL customer services have always then rung back very quickly and resolved it to my total satisfaction.
Haywain
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I'm really not sure why you think the Oyster helpline is relevant to this. The issue is about being issued a penalty fare, not about a mischarge on Oyster. And, for the record, I've always found the Oyster helpline to be very efficient, helpful and keen to resolve problems in my favour.
It's agree it's not an Oyster helpline issue.
The Penalty Fares Appeal people clearly lack staff who have appropriate knowledge; they pay a pittance per case and it's clearly a box-ticking exercise. I have no confidence in their abilities whatsoever.
LTW are good and do understand issues and do care but under-resourced.
The Ombudsman refuses to engage in meeting the forum and/or fares experts on the forum. I have zero confidence that they currently have adequate knowledge amongst their staff. They have been found to rule incorrectly in several cases. As they refuse to engage with us, I can only assume they have no desire to improve outcomes to passengers.
As for Transport Focus, I've tried to get them to understand some serious issues facing customers, but it was like talking to a brick wall. I doubt they have anyone who really understands fares and ticketing matters.
The ORR's view is that it's up to the DfT, and the DfT's view is that it's up to the ORR. Neither are being pro-active at all in this area.
There is no-one who is both willing and capable of bringing the likes of GWR to account. I am aware of numerous cases of GWR mistreating their 'customers'. Some of their staff are effectively out of control in this area. There remain insufficient safeguards in place to protect passengers and I can't see things changing anytime soon.
The Penalty Fares Appeal people clearly lack staff who have appropriate knowledge; they pay a pittance per case and it's clearly a box-ticking exercise. I have no confidence in their abilities whatsoever.
LTW are good and do understand issues and do care but under-resourced.
The Ombudsman refuses to engage in meeting the forum and/or fares experts on the forum. I have zero confidence that they currently have adequate knowledge amongst their staff. They have been found to rule incorrectly in several cases. As they refuse to engage with us, I can only assume they have no desire to improve outcomes to passengers.
As for Transport Focus, I've tried to get them to understand some serious issues facing customers, but it was like talking to a brick wall. I doubt they have anyone who really understands fares and ticketing matters.
The ORR's view is that it's up to the DfT, and the DfT's view is that it's up to the ORR. Neither are being pro-active at all in this area.
There is no-one who is both willing and capable of bringing the likes of GWR to account. I am aware of numerous cases of GWR mistreating their 'customers'. Some of their staff are effectively out of control in this area. There remain insufficient safeguards in place to protect passengers and I can't see things changing anytime soon.
jumble
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My understanding is that the the OP who was travelling on an Oyster and wished the issuer of said Oyster to contact GWR The issuer of the penalty fare to clarify the rules and is disgruntled with the incorrect response from TFL
An informed guess would be that the OP called the oyster helpline to facilitate this.
see post 18
I have also mostly found the helpline to be good but was not impressed when they sent my sons Oyster to someone else because their backend postcode database was plain wrong and contradicted the post office database and they suggested to me that it was my fault for giving them the wrong address and refused to compensate for the adult fares I had paid in the meantime
It's nothing to do with the Oyster helpline; that is for rectifying issues with Oyster/Contactless cards such as incorrect fares etc.
The OP would have contacted TfL Customer Service Centre, which is in-house and the majority of staff employed by TfL (they do have some agency staff but staff work on TfL premises and report into TfL).
To reiterate with the OP, I would provide links in any further communication to the National Rail enquiries webpage (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46532.aspx) which shows that 60+ card is valid at any time on TfL Rail.
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