WCML Anglo-Scottish steam workings

Does anyone know or remember whether the regular Anglo Scottish West Coast services in steam days were scheduled for an engine change at Carlisle? There are quite a few published photos of the Royal Scot at Carlisle complete with headboard but also another Duchess on the adjacent road adorned with the RS headboard. Some authors state that the same loco worked through from Euston to Glasgow. It would be interesting to know what the practice was.

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I think the answer is yes. By the time I was around 61-62, Stanier pacifics were on their last legs regarding such services (they hobbled on for some years on less prestigious trains), but Polmadie (66A) engines were very, very rare at the southern end of the WCML. Certainly I never saw one. I think most trains changed engines at Crewe and Carlisle, meaning 12B Upperby pacifics were also rare 'uns darn sarf.

AFAIK (from reading), Carlisle Kingmoor crews (and, presumably, locos) shared the Caledonian section with Polmadie. Upperby (12B) did the former LNWR route to Crewe - just as in pre-grouping (1922) days.

There were, surely exceptions, and indeed the loco on the up sleeper that was the origin of the Harrow and Wealdstone crash was City of Glasgow and was a 66A engine, I believe. Whether this was regular, or because of a late loco failure leading to the Scottish loco staying on the train, I don't know.

Czesziafan said:

Does anyone know or remember whether the regular Anglo Scottish West Coast services in steam days were scheduled for an engine change at Carlisle? There are quite a few published photos of the Royal Scot at Carlisle complete with headboard but also another Duchess on the adjacent road adorned with the RS headboard. Some authors state that the same loco worked through from Euston to Glasgow. It would be interesting to know what the practice was.

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The answer is yes - and no. Many did change locos at Carlisle, but others did not. I think diagrams also changed over the years, so there is no simple answer. I regularly visited Wigan North Western in the 1950s, and Polmadie locos were uncommon, but not unknown. Camden, Crewe North & Carlisle Pacifics were much more common at Wigan, along with Royal Scots, etc.

I think that the Glasgow - Birmingham service changed locos at Crewe. At least some of the Liverpool / Manchester services had a single loco to or from Glasgow - with any Edinburgh portions getting a new loco from Carstairs.

That seems to clear things up. When some of the duchesses were painted maroon I believe only LM allocated locos received this treatment. I have seen an illustration somewhere of a maroon duchess with the Euston - Glasgow sleeper climbing Beattock, It would be interesting to know whether LM allocated engines were common on the blocks at Glasgow.

M.F. Higgins (London Midland Fireman, 1972) describes firing a Crewe Duchess to Perth (292 miles). By his account this was close to the limit of capacity for coal and fireman alike.

70014IronDuke said:

There were, surely exceptions, and indeed the loco on the up sleeper that was the origin of the Harrow and Wealdstone crash was City of Glasgow and was a 66A engine, I believe. Whether this was regular, or because of a late loco failure leading to the Scottish loco staying on the train, I don't know.

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46242, despite her Scottish name, was a Camden locomotive in 1952, and I believe had worked from Carlisle. Indeed, some of the Coronations with Scottish names were never allocated to Scotland at all.

D1537 said:

46242, despite her Scottish name, was a Camden locomotive in 1952, and I believe had worked from Carlisle. Indeed, some of the Coronations with Scottish names were never allocated to Scotland at all.

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Thanks for the correction. When I started on the platforms in 1961, I'm pretty sure she was at 66A. I certainly never saw her, and I had assumed (incorrectly) it was that way in 1952.

Bevan Price said:

The answer is yes - and no. Many did change locos at Carlisle, but others did not. I think diagrams also changed over the years, so there is no simple answer.... .

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This is probably a key point, Bevan.

70014IronDuke said:

Thanks for the correction. When I started on the platforms in 1961, I'm pretty sure she was at 66A. I certainly never saw her, and I had assumed (incorrectly) it was that way in 1952.

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Yes, she moved from Camden to Polmadie in 1961 and was there until withdrawal, so not surprising you didn't see her. Others that were Polmadie locos from 1961 (or earlier) until withdrawn were 46222, 46223, 46224, 46227, 46230, 46231, 46232 and 46249.

Having checked my old records, I had 4 locos into or out of Glasgow Central in 1961 on the Carlisle line.
One was from Polmadie (46222)
Two were from Crewe North (46251/54), and
One was from Newton Heath (45290)

O S Nock wrote at length in the June 1964 Railway Magazine about riding a month or two beforehand the footplate of a Duchess from Crewe to Carlisle on the Royal Scot, the loco continuing (although he was back in the train then) to Glasgow. It was a sudden substitute at Crewe for a failed Class 40, the loco was at the station fully prepared for the following Perth train, so even then steam was working through from Crewe to Scotland, although with a crew change at Carlisle.

A parallel operation was through running by Corkerhill and Holbeck Jubilees from Glasgow via the G&SW to Carlisle and thence to Leeds. Again the crews did not work through.

There was an article by an enthusiast about doing a two night ( out one night,back the next ) turn on the Crewe to Perth Sleeper turn.The
loco failed on the return leg and was replaced by aPatriot or similar with a tender of coal which clinkered up the fire.
It stated that Crewe to Perth working had started about 1927 on the LMS
I think it may have been in aneaarly 1960s Trains Illustrated Special.

As a spotter at Leyland in the 1950's I understood that the loco on the Royal Scot worked through from Euston to Glasgow without change during the summer months but changed at Carlisle during the winter.
The fireman on the Duchesses was helped by the steam pusher in the tender pushing coal from the back of the tender. You could often hear this grinding away as they sped through Leyland.
The Duchesses that were painted in maroon livery were supposed to be dedicated locos for the Caledonian service introduced in the late 1950's.