Plans to bring in a light rail system (again) in Leeds

Roavin · 2 Sep 2019

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-49449965

Transport experts have been invited to submit ideas for a new mass transit system serving Leeds.
Prime Minister Boris Johnson recently said it was "madness that Leeds should be the largest city in Europe with no metro rail system".
Officials will put together a public transport plan "addressing the climate emergency through clean growth".
Leeds was previously set to get trolley buses and a Supertram but both were scrapped.
West Yorkshire Combined Authority is hoping to deliver a new transport scheme by 2033.
"The prime minister has acknowledged our need for a rapid mass transit system," said councillor Kim Groves, chair of its transport committee.
"We look forward to hearing from him on how his government intends to support us in developing one."

Leeds has been described as lagging behind other European cities when it comes to public transport.
The council and West Yorkshire Combined Authority spent nearly 30 years and invested £72m in developing the Leeds trolleybus and Supertram projects.
The Leeds Supertram project was scrapped by the Department for Transport in 2005 because of affordability.
While the £250m trolley bus network, known as the Leeds New Generation Transport, was scrapped after a planning inspector deemed it was "not in the public interest".

Proposals are now being developed for a new scheme to carry large numbers of people in Leeds and the surrounding areas.
West Yorkshire Combined Authority, a group made up of local councils, said it was looking for "ideas and expertise" from around the world.
The new system is expected to allow 200 to 300 passengers to get off at each stop and could take the form of light rail or tram trains or buses.
It is expected to connect with existing train services as well as the planned high-speed Leeds to Manchester rail route.

3rd time lucky?

RailUK Forums

TrainTube · 2 Sep 2019

The map seems interesting, why the system doesn't go further north or east but stretches into Castleford and Bradford. The Elland road area would need to be served as well, considering Leeds United could be in the premier league soon (no I don't support them). But I think Leeds really misses out considering areas like Blackpool and Nottingham have tram networks, it is a populated city, and I think a tram train network could come into use to serve places like Shipley, Dewsbury or even Wakefield. It's clever that the green line serves Seacroft which combined with a regeneration of the estate could improve the area massively.

61653 HTAFC · 8 Sep 2019

TrainTube said:
The map seems interesting, why the system doesn't go further north or east but stretches into Castleford and Bradford. The Elland road area would need to be served as well, considering Leeds United could be in the premier league soon (no I don't support them). But I think Leeds really misses out considering areas like Blackpool and Nottingham have tram networks, it is a populated city, and I think a tram train network could come into use to serve places like Shipley, Dewsbury or even Wakefield. It's clever that the green line serves Seacroft which combined with a regeneration of the estate could improve the area massively.

There isn't really capacity for tram-trains on routes out of Leeds towards Dewsbury, probably not Wakefield either until HS2.
A route in that direction would be better off as a pure tram, running via Elland Road and the White Rose Centre to Morley. That also keeps within Leeds City Council territory, though I could see the logic in a (separate) route reaching (just) into Kirklees as far as the Birstall retail park and IKEA.

J-2739 · 8 Sep 2019

TrainTube said:
The map seems interesting, why the system doesn't go further north or east but stretches into Castleford and Bradford. The Elland road area would need to be served as well, considering Leeds United could be in the premier league soon (no I don't support them). But I think Leeds really misses out considering areas like Blackpool and Nottingham have tram networks, it is a populated city, and I think a tram train network could come into use to serve places like Shipley, Dewsbury or even Wakefield. It's clever that the green line serves Seacroft which combined with a regeneration of the estate could improve the area massively.

Bold - Dream on...

Just hoping it's not a BRT type system, after the last time that was executed...

Although I think it's clever that it proposes to serve other parts of West Yorkshire. Could be effective in reducing congestion on not only the rail lines, but also on the main roads (helping to reduce pollution).

TrainTube · 8 Sep 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
There isn't really capacity for tram-trains on routes out of Leeds towards Dewsbury, probably not Wakefield either until HS2.
A route in that direction would be better off as a pure tram, running via Elland Road and the White Rose Centre to Morley. That also keeps within Leeds City Council territory, though I could see the logic in a (separate) route reaching (just) into Kirklees as far as the Birstall retail park and IKEA.

If they're willing to spend that sort of money, then that would be obviously more beneficial. If it ran via Elland Road, White Rose and maybe part of Cottingley to Morley then that would attract passengers.
But generally I think the east and South east of the city is poorly served, maybe a tram between Leeds and Cross Gates Shopping would be good too.

Ken H · 8 Sep 2019

i think one into N Leeds. up to Moortown. they could reuse some of the guided busway.
One to seacroft too.

61653 HTAFC · 8 Sep 2019

Planners need to stop seeing tram-trains as the solution to everything, because in most cases they're proposed they'd be a significant downgrade on heavy rail, and seem to be proposed as a cost-cutting measure that can be dressed up as an improvement. The original trial proposal (tram trains all the way to Huddersfield) was an obvious example of something proposed by civil servants who'd looked at maps but not actually visited the locations or tried to understand local usage patterns.
The revised Parkgate scheme was more manageable, and actually improved public transport rather than simply replacing the vehicles with a more modern but slower and lower-spec ones. The wisdom of building a bus rapid transit scheme alongside to compete with it was a bit silly, but never mind!

TfGM's proposals also suffer from this, having proposed converting a high-quality electrified Suburban railway (Glossop/Hadfield) to a glorified metro. Rose Hill Marple would be a more sensible option, as it removes a diesel service from Picc and potentially gives an option for Metrolink to access Stockport by extending the current stub.

I can't see tram-trains being a sensible solution for Leeds, the only really viable route would be Castleford, and could replace the calls by Sheffield and Knottingley locals, saving them from needing to reverse. So not a way to actually replace an existing service, which tram-trains seem to be a Trojan horse for.

Morley via White Rose, and Birstall via Gildersome would be obvious choices for a Leeds tram route though. Both have disused railways they can use to avoid street running at the edge of the city centre (Holbeck viaduct for Morley, parts of the Leeds "New Line" for Birstall). Both would have park&ride potential, and both would serve a mix of residential and leisure destinations meaning there's plenty to drive usage outside of the peaks.

TrainTube · 8 Sep 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
Planners need to stop seeing tram-trains as the solution to everything, because in most cases they're proposed they'd be a significant downgrade on heavy rail, and seem to be proposed as a cost-cutting measure that can be dressed up as an improvement. The original trial proposal (tram trains all the way to Huddersfield) was an obvious example of something proposed by civil servants who'd looked at maps but not actually visited the locations or tried to understand local usage patterns.
The revised Parkgate scheme was more manageable, and actually improved public transport rather than simply replacing the vehicles with a more modern but slower and lower-spec ones. The wisdom of building a bus rapid transit scheme alongside to compete with it was a bit silly, but never mind!

TfGM's proposals also suffer from this, having proposed converting a high-quality electrified Suburban railway (Glossop/Hadfield) to a glorified metro. Rose Hill Marple would be a more sensible option, as it removes a diesel service from Picc and potentially gives an option for Metrolink to access Stockport by extending the current stub.

I can't see tram-trains being a sensible solution for Leeds, the only really viable route would be Castleford, and could replace the calls by Sheffield and Knottingley locals, saving them from needing to reverse. So not a way to actually replace an existing service, which tram-trains seem to be a Trojan horse for.

Morley via White Rose, and Birstall via Gildersome would be obvious choices for a Leeds tram route though. Both have disused railways they can use to avoid street running at the edge of the city centre (Holbeck viaduct for Morley, parts of the Leeds "New Line" for Birstall). Both would have park&ride potential, and both would serve a mix of residential and leisure destinations meaning there's plenty to drive usage outside of the peaks.

I do agree, tram trains shouldn't be the first choice. In my Opinion Liverpool Leeds and maybe somewhere like Leicester or Bristol should have a tram network.

Ken H · 9 Sep 2019

TrainTube said:
I do agree, tram trains shouldn't be the first choice. In my Opinion Liverpool Leeds and maybe somewhere like Leicester or Bristol should have a tram network.

This is the problem with 2 track railways. mixing a stopping service with a 'fast' service. But 4 tracking is so expensive. So we have the problem with Oldham people wanting to get to manchester quickly (probably want a heavy rail service) against the people wanting to use the many tram stops in between.
Same on Chiltern. the stoppers between Marylebone and High Wycombe getting in the way of the expresses to brum.

TrainTube · 9 Sep 2019

Ken H said:
This is the problem with 2 track railways. mixing a stopping service with a 'fast' service. But 4 tracking is so expensive. So we have the problem with Oldham people wanting to get to manchester quickly (probably want a heavy rail service) against the people wanting to use the many tram stops in between.
Same on Chiltern. the stoppers between Marylebone and High Wycombe getting in the way of the expresses to brum.

I don't whether this happens but Chiltern could easily avoid that. If the hourly HWY stopper left 5 mins after the BMO and the hourly GER stopper left before the BSW then both stoppers would get to their destinations before the fast trains do.
Back to the point it can also be vice versa, people in Rotherham wanting to go to Sheffield City Centre or Meadowhall would get the TT if it came as its quicker than getting a pacer to Meadowhall/Sheffield and takes people right into the centre of Sheffield. As for four tracking, there's no need unless your implementing a light rail service on already used tracks in which 2 more tracks need to be laid.

Plans to bring in a light rail system (again) in Leeds

Roavin

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TrainTube

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J-2739

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61653 HTAFC

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